oafcprozac Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Unlike the Kop end, the west terracing has not only crush barriers parallel with the goal line but radial fences at right angles to it, dividing the area into pens. This division was begun after an FA Cup semi-final in 1981 when crushing occurred due to overcrowding and gates had to be opened. It proceeded in stages, the final arrangement being shown on the plan Appendix 1. The first section of the west terracing moving south to north contains gates 1 and 2 and is known as pens 1 and 2 although in fact constituting only one pen. Next is pen 3 with one gate; next pen 4 with one gate; pen 5, which is extremely narrow, was intended as a sterile area to divide pen 4 from pen 6. This was to isolate home and away fans on occasions when both might be accommodated on the west terracing in separate pens. Finally there is pen 7 at the north-west corner. Pens 5,6 and 7 each have a perimeter gate. At the back of the pens, under the front of the west stand, there is a gate in each radial fence. When those gates are open, the back row of the terracing is intended to permit access from pen to pen along the whole west side. In practice, when substantial numbers are present, those gateways are not readily visible or accessible. The present layout of the pens, fences, crush barriers and gates has resulted from a series of piecemeal changes. The nature and effect of those changes must be considered later. Allocation of Places and Tickets 35. Experience in recent years has produced a policy of segregation to prevent trouble between supporters of rival teams. The need for this policy to be maintained was endorsed and emphasised by the Popplewell Report following the Bradford City disaster in 1985. Accordingly, before the 1988 semi-final the police decided that sections of the Hillsborough Stadium should be allocated so as to achieve efficient segregation of Liverpool and Nottingham Forest fans. The section to be granted to each was determined by the direction whence each predominantly approached. Thus, Liverpool were allotted the north and west sides of the ground for which access was from Leppings Lane. Nottingham Forest were allotted the south and east sides with access from Penistone Road. 36. The effect of the decision was that for this all-ticket Cup Tie, Liverpool were allotted only 24,256 places as against 29,800 for Nottingham Forest. This, although average attendance of supporters at home matches was substantially higher at Liverpool than at Nottingham. Moreover, with standing tickets at £6 and seats at £12, Nottingham Forest had 21,000 standing places compared with Liverpool's 10,100. So, Liverpool's allocation was more expensive as well as smaller. Understandably, Liverpool were aggrieved by the allocation of places and tickets. They sought with some support from the host club and the FA to have it changed in 1988, but the police were adamant. To switch ends would, in their opinion, have involved rival supporters crossing each other's paths when approaching the ground thereby frustrating attempts at segregation and creating a risk of disorder. In 1989, when the same plan was proposed, Liverpool again challenged it. The police, however, maintained their view, adding that those who had attended in 1988 would be familiar with the arrangements and that any change would lead to confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 From Lord Justice Taylor's Interim Report PART I - WHAT HAPPENED AT HILLSBOROUGH? CHAPTER 1 THE GROUND AND PRE-MATCH ARRANGEMENTS Fixing The Venue 21. On 20 March 1989, the Football Association (the FA) requested that their Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest be held on 15 April at Hillsborough Football Stadium. The corresponding semi-final between the same two teams had been held there in April 1988. The arrangements had been successful in the view both of the police and of the host club. Sheffield Wednesday (the Club) were therefore willing to accommodate the 1989 match. South Yorkshire Constabulary were prepared to police it but only if the ticketing arrangements were the same as those for 1988. Otherwise, the FA would have to look elsewhere. Those arrangements did not please Liverpool or its supporters either in 1988 or 1989. They thought the ticket allocation was unfair for reasons to be explained later. Reluctantly, however, the police requirement was accepted and the match was fixed for 15 April at Hillsborough. Opinion about unfairness of ticket alloation, but no reference to "crushing and over-crowding" allegations in 1988. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Opinion about unfairness of ticket alloation, but no reference to "crushing and over-crowding" allegations in 1988. To be fair Diego if you watch the coverage you can see the crushing yourself... Although it is caused by the surge Liverpool fans used to do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Opinion about unfairness of ticket alloation, but no reference to "crushing and over-crowding" allegations in 1988. Policing in 1988 214. As to 1988, there was a very large and consistent body of evidence that, on the day, the police in Leppings Lane conducted an efficient filtering exercise designed to keep away those without tickets and control the flow of fans towards the ground. I do not believe that so many witnesses without either opportunity or reason to put their heads together could be mistaken about what they experienced on that occasion. Yet, the police maintain that no filtering exercise other than on a random basis was conducted in 1988 and that their policy and practice then were no different from those of 1989. 215. The answer to this conflict must, I think, be that whilst the policy may have been no different, in practice the policing in 1988 was more efficient and was not put to the same test and strain as a year later. There was not so large a swell in numbers approaching the ground from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm as in 1989. Nevertheless, there had been warning signs in 1988. Detective Superintendent McKay gave the following evidence:36 "Q Were you aware of a build-up of numbers last year towards the latter stages at the turnstiles? A Yes. . . There was a huge build-up around 10 minutes to 3 when many, many Liverpool supporters came at that time. They had been drinking, the ones that I saw and there was quite a sizeable crush built-up - sizeable queue. Q Queue or crush? A Compacted queue, built-up in the area by the turnstiles which I believe are marked A to G. That crowd reached back almost to the gates. It never got any bigger than that and the turnstiles operated relatively freely and they dealt with that crowd. Fans were still arriving at about 10 past 3 but by then the... Q This crowd that you have described of the late arrivals at about 10 to - was it an orderly crowd? A Oh no. No. The orderly crowd had gone in, and when I say they were not an orderly crowd, obviously mixed amongst those people were... Q Of course, but taking it generally? A But by and large they had taken a lot of drink on board and they were in such numbers that excluding them from the ground was completely out of the question. Q Were they standing in an orderly queue or was there some pushing and shoving? A There was a lot of pushing and shoving. There was an urgency to get into the ground. Q But fortunately it does not appear to have been in nearly such numbers as this year. A It wasn't." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy_Fent Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Something I never knew, 20 years ago today I was only 3 but living in Glossop the next town to the east is Sheffield and my mum says she saw all the red phone boxes around town with Liverpool fans in them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) To be fair Diego if you watch the coverage you can see the crushing yourself... Although it is caused by the surge Liverpool fans used to do.... Surging was the norm in those days and for a surge to happen, there has to be spare capacity in the section. That doesn't mean it should return. Surging was not the cause of the Hillsborough dusaster. We were on the Kop 90 minutes before kick-off. To pass the time I read a Foest fanzine I had bought. It included a scary account of overcrowding of Forest fans at the Baseball Ground a few weeks earlier. Amazingly that match had not been made all-ticket and as the number of Forest fans greatly exceeded DCFC's expectations, they were crammed into every available section. The writer of the article said that, with the pessure, it was a miracle nobody was crushed against the perimeter fencing. Soon after reading that article the match kicked off and stopped at 3:06pm............ Edited April 15, 2009 by Diego_Sideburns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Surging was the norm in those days and for a surge to happen, there has to be spare capacity in the section. That doesn't mean it should return. Surging was not the cause of the Hillsborough dusaster. I never suggest it was... Try to stick to what's being discussed and dont put words in peoples mouths... I dont get what your point is now Diego... You asked me to justify my opinion and I have.. Now we just seem to be going around in circles as you seem to not accept what actually DID happen the year before Hillsborough... All this stuff is a record of historical fact... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) It included a scary account of overcrowding of Forest fans at the Baseball Ground a few weeks earlier I attended a match at the Baseball Ground in 1993. Crushed in to a urine filled tiny paddock below pitch level. Fans tried to get out of the crush, only to have the exit gates swung shut in to their faces. People could easily have died that day. Memories of Pride Park were much happier Edited April 15, 2009 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 I never suggest it was... Try to stick to what's being discussed and dont put words in peoples mouths... I dont get what your point is now Diego... You asked me to justify my opinion and I have.. Now we just seem to be going around in circles as you seem to not accept what actually DID happen the year before Hillsborough... All this stuff is a record of historical fact... I'm not looking for an argument, just distinguishing between crowd surging regularly experienced during matches and what happened on 15th April 1989. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) I'm not looking for an argument, just distinguishing between crowd surging regularly experienced during matches and what happened on 15th April 1989. Im not looking for an argument either... Not the right day for it is it.... Just watching the stuff on SKY and its really sad Edited April 15, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diego_Sideburns Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nj2c0DdY-8...feature=related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 rest in peace 96 liverpool fans , its a sad day for all football fan's everywhere in the world ......... .r.i.p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Culture sectary looked generally upset when the fans demanded justice... I just hope he goes back to Brown and pushes the issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafc88 Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Ive been debating whether to flag it up or not, but who thinks the bloke (Hicks i believe his name was, the one who lost two girls) who leads the group who organises these memorial days every year (i think its them) was right to claim standing should never return in any way shape or form?? i understand its a subject close to him as he lost two loved ones and if it had been seating at hillsborugh that day no crush would of occured, and obviously if everybody completely sat down at a game there would be little if any injury to occur. However i dont feel its right to just completely ignore the possibility of bringing standing back safely. Its safely achieved for a number of other sports and entertainment events, even some lower league football and as ever the german leagues currently working example and im fairly sure there has been no serious incidents as such to date?? what does anyone else think? as i do feel bad for questioning the guys judgement, especially today and i mean in no way to disrespect the 96 who died and the improvements they brought to stadia around the country, i cant help feel there is still a place for standing in areas of the ground for those that wish at football matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) Ive been debating whether to flag it up or not, but who thinks the bloke (Hicks i believe his name was, the one who lost two girls) who leads the group who organises these memorial days every year (i think its them) was right to claim standing should never return in any way shape or form?? He is entitled to his opinion... I dont agree with him but understand and respect his view point... I think its easy to understand why he feels this way...and he has done a lot more real study than me or you (i would guess)... I dont think he could ever give an unbias emotion free view point though... Standing in seated area is safe enough and I doubt the safe standing areas in Germany are all that dangerous... Edited April 15, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafc88 Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Aye i agree. I wonder do you think he was right to air the view so public, or has he got every right too? im not trying to stir things up, im wondering the same question myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Culture sectary looked generally upset when the fans demanded justice... I just hope he goes back to Brown and pushes the issue... i'm sorry if it sounds perverse but i was really pleased his speech was disrupted by 28000 people chanting 'Justice for the 96'. One of Labour's many broken promises before the 1997 election was that they would re-open the inquest into the disaster,and it really annoys me that they've done nothing of any substance to bring about justice or hold anyone accountable, but they happily take the opportunity to appear on tv voicing sympathy for the families. Just been down to Anfield and amongst all the tributes, someone's tied a Liverpool shirt to the railings with 'Duckinfield Rot In Hell' and something similar about Kelvin McKenzie written on it. It may or may not be appropriate,and you can argue that's not the place for something like that, but you can't blame them for being bitter and angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Surging was the norm in those days and for a surge to happen, there has to be spare capacity in the section. That doesn't mean it should return. Surging was not the cause of the Hillsborough dusaster. I'm not sure if there isn't a difference of language rather than meaning. Surging inside the ground was part and parcel of being a fan back then, and how much of it you wanted dictated where you stood. As Diego says, it relied on spare capacity, although at times the Chaddy could feel full it was in fact far from it it in terms of the conditions at Hillsborough that year. The deaths at Hillsborough that year were created by surges, outside the ground. A combination of fans trying to get in before kick off after getting through the too slow multiple ticket checking levels and fans trying to get through with fakes or no tickets at all. It will have been a combination of the two that led to the pressure, and the mad rush through an open gate. This is not to say that the situation shouldn't have been mitigated by good policing and stewarding. It should have. I hope nobody takes this as being disrespectful towards the dead and their families, but it serves nothing if we deny the facts. Gates have been rushed in recent years for key matches, back in those days before this tragedy nobody would have thought for a second that they were endangering lives - as above, coming from a culture where being packed in like sardines was just part of the manly experience, you just took it. Sadly, there were far too many in there that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafc88 Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 (edited) i'm sorry if it sounds perverse but i was really pleased his speech was disrupted by 28000 people chanting 'Justice for the 96'. One of Labour's many broken promises before the 1997 election was that they would re-open the inquest into the disaster,and it really annoys me that they've done nothing of any substance to bring about justice or hold anyone accountable, but they happily take the opportunity to appear on tv voicing sympathy for the families. Just been down to Anfield and amongst all the tributes, someone's tied a Liverpool shirt to the railings with 'Duckinfield Rot In Hell' and something similar about Kelvin McKenzie written on it. It may or may not be appropriate,and you can argue that's not the place for something like that, but you can't blame them for being bitter and angry. Hear hear, made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when that happened. Correct me if im wrong but how often does a public figure/message get cut down (well maybe it wasnt directed at the guy) like that? You could tell it was pure passion and the sense of injustice still raw when that chant took place. Wodnder if big gord was watchin? Edited April 15, 2009 by Oafc88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 The deaths at Hillsborough that year were created by surges, outside the ground. A combination of fans trying to get in before kick off after getting through the too slow multiple ticket checking levels and fans trying to get through with fakes or no tickets at all. It will have been a combination of the two that led to the pressure, and the mad rush through an open gate. This is not to say that the situation shouldn't have been mitigated by good policing and stewarding. It should have. I hope nobody takes this as being disrespectful towards the dead and their families, but it serves nothing if we deny the facts. Gates have been rushed in recent years for key matches, back in those days before this tragedy nobody would have thought for a second that they were endangering lives - as above, coming from a culture where being packed in like sardines was just part of the manly experience, you just took it. Sadly, there were far too many in there that day. My brother got to the leppings lane end at 2pm and had to queue for 10 minutes to get in because the crowd was already building up then. i don't doubt that there were people without tickets but the crush outside the ground was caused by 24000 fans having to get in throught 13 turnstiles. The problem had been mitigated the year before by the police and stewards checking tickets and directing people before they got to the turnstiles. It didn't happen in 1989 because an inexperienced police superintendent was put in charge of crowd control weeks before the game and he didn't familiarise himself with the layout of the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 My brother got to the leppings lane end at 2pm and had to queue for 10 minutes to get in because the crowd was already building up then. i don't doubt that there were people without tickets but the crush outside the ground was caused by 24000 fans having to get in throught 13 turnstiles. The problem had been mitigated the year before by the police and stewards checking tickets and directing people before they got to the turnstiles. It didn't happen in 1989 because an inexperienced police superintendent was put in charge of crowd control weeks before the game and he didn't familiarise himself with the layout of the ground. Clearly there weren't enough turnstiles. I don't want to offend but I don't want to not say what I feel to be the truth - there were a mixture of fans with tickets desperate to see the game and a lot of chancers who were hoping that the pressure would give them the chance to rush a gate and get in without a ticket involved in what happened. It went on all the time in those days, it's not painting a picture of theose that did it. And the police should have been more aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Its always a very fine line when you start to level any sort of blame at the fans regarding the Hillsborough disaster but their is no doubt they played a part. Not a part like the Sun tried to suggest but a part never the less. lesslover is right to point out the things he has. I feel the fans as much as anyone learned lessons that day. You didn't see the mob mentality as much after Hillsborough. Yeah it still happens from time to time, but not like it used to! But on the list of people to blame the fans are last and I use the word "blame" in the mildest possible way. Anything the fans did that day could of and should of been controlled by better policing and decision making. The crush outside should never of been allowed to happen for a start and the game should of been delayed with an announcement made outside to the waiting fans. Mr Hicks commented about the vial lies that is written on messageboards about the fans and I hope we haven't said anything false. At the same time we have to make sure that this never happens again and part of that is making sure as fans our behaviour dosent drop to the level where we are pushing and shoving to get inside the ground or pushing and shoving to get into a pen that is ram jammed. And for us that are older enough to remember that day we need to make sure the kids know what happened that day... And how sometimes certain behaviour isnt wise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_ragg1984 Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 lesslover is right to point out the things he has. I feel the fans as much as anyone learned lessons that day. You didn't see the mob mentality as much after Hillsborough. Yeah it still happens from time to time, but not like it used to! Yet some of them still havent learnt there lesson...it really p**sed me off when a few thousand ticketless Liverpool fans rushed the turnstiled at the 2007 Champions League final in Athens. You would have thought if anyone would know the dangers of turning up without a ticket and forcing entry, it would be them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Yet some of them still havent learnt there lesson...it really p**sed me off when a few thousand ticketless Liverpool fans rushed the turnstiled at the 2007 Champions League final in Athens. You would have thought if anyone would know the dangers of turning up without a ticket and forcing entry, it would be them. Your right! Mob mentality and stupidity will still happen from time to time... and its why the policing and stewarding needs to be up to scratch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 (edited) Clearly there weren't enough turnstiles. I don't want to offend but I don't want to not say what I feel to be the truth - there were a mixture of fans with tickets desperate to see the game and a lot of chancers who were hoping that the pressure would give them the chance to rush a gate and get in without a ticket involved in what happened. It went on all the time in those days, it's not painting a picture of theose that did it. And the police should have been more aware. 6 turnstiles for 24,000 fans, all Liverpool fans were sent via Leppings Lane, there weren't any ticket checks that was part of the contributing factor in the build up at the turnstiles. The season before in 1988 there had been two police cordons checking tickets to ensure that ticketless fand did not get anywhere near the turnstiles. It was simple, ticket checks, a delayed kick-off and the sealing off of that tunnel, oh and a match-commander with half an idea. Edited April 16, 2009 by oafcprozac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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