deyres42 Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Regarding Heysel, I believe some Liverpool fans were prosecuted but I agree that if we commemorate one then we should do all. However, regarding Hillsborough, there seems to be an impetus to blame the police and leave the reds blame free when there were a number without tickets or with forged tickets who took advantage of the gates being opened. While I accept that it was a major cockup by the police, I still feel that the reds still need to look at themselves if they rocked up without a ticket or with a forgery. Hate to break it to you but these well supported clubs have fans who jib the gates every chance they get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slider1 Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Having watched live football in the 1980's, football has come along way. Stadiums back then were death traps, supporters herded into pens with no way out. We were treated like animals, and I think that is one factor why hooliganism was rife. 96 football fans went to watch a game of football and never came home. This is an english football tragedy and like the Bradford fire should never be forgotten. I feel a minute silence is far more deserved for this, than it is for things like the death of an ex pro, as I can relate far more with the supporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Yeah, Liverpool don't want you to remember Heysel. That's why there's a Heysel memorial at Anfield and there's a memorial football tournament organised by Liverpool fans between themselves and Juventus fans every year. What happened at Heysel was awful and what some Liverpool fans did was awful. That's why they went to prison for manslaughter. The secretary of the belgian FA and the officer in charge of policing the stands at Heysel were also given suspended prison sentences for their part in the disaster. By contrast no-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough. Should we tell the families of the bereaved that they're not allowed to fight to bring those responsible for the deaths of their loved ones to justice because people they don't know caused the deaths of other football fans four years earlier? I'm not going to get into another debate about whether the Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough. The report of the independent panel's freely available online, the evidence will be getting aired at the inquests in the coming weeks. The real causes of the disaster and the deliberate attempts to shift the blame are well documented, people can believe whatever they want to believe. It's a shame more isn't done to commemorate the disasters at Burden Park,Ibrox,Bradford and Heysel, and I suspect the FA have their own motives for wanting to be seen to be sympathetic to those affected by Hillsborough, but it isn't a competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShireBlue Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Yeah, Liverpool don't want you to remember Heysel. That's why there's a Heysel memorial at Anfield and there's a memorial football tournament organised by Liverpool fans between themselves and Juventus fans every year. What happened at Heysel was awful and what some Liverpool fans did was awful. That's why they went to prison for manslaughter. The secretary of the belgian FA and the officer in charge of policing the stands at Heysel were also given suspended prison sentences for their part in the disaster. By contrast no-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough. Should we tell the families of the bereaved that they're not allowed to fight to bring those responsible for the deaths of their loved ones to justice because people they don't know caused the deaths of other football fans four years earlier? I'm not going to get into another debate about whether the Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough. The report of the independent panel's freely available online, the evidence will be getting aired at the inquests in the coming weeks. The real causes of the disaster and the deliberate attempts to shift the blame are well documented, people can believe whatever they want to believe. It's a shame more isn't done to commemorate the disasters at Burden Park,Ibrox,Bradford and Heysel, and I suspect the FA have their own motives for wanting to be seen to be sympathetic to those affected by Hillsborough, but it isn't a competition. Quite right Rosa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimeblue Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Hate to break it to you but these well supported clubs have fans who jib the gates every chance they get... There's still snides when United play in Europe as far as I'm aware (there certainly has been in recent years). As for Heysel, weren't there supporters of other clubs there as well as Liverpool? Been a while since I've read anything about it but I'm sure I remember reading that loads just turned up for 'the buzz'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Yeah, Liverpool don't want you to remember Heysel. That's why there's a Heysel memorial at Anfield and there's a memorial football tournament organised by Liverpool fans between themselves and Juventus fans every year. What happened at Heysel was awful and what some Liverpool fans did was awful. That's why they went to prison for manslaughter. The secretary of the belgian FA and the officer in charge of policing the stands at Heysel were also given suspended prison sentences for their part in the disaster. By contrast no-one has ever been held accountable for Hillsborough. Should we tell the families of the bereaved that they're not allowed to fight to bring those responsible for the deaths of their loved ones to justice because people they don't know caused the deaths of other football fans four years earlier? I'm not going to get into another debate about whether the Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough. The report of the independent panel's freely available online, the evidence will be getting aired at the inquests in the coming weeks. The real causes of the disaster and the deliberate attempts to shift the blame are well documented, people can believe whatever they want to believe. It's a shame more isn't done to commemorate the disasters at Burden Park,Ibrox,Bradford and Heysel, and I suspect the FA have their own motives for wanting to be seen to be sympathetic to those affected by Hillsborough, but it isn't a competition. Amen to that :censored:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted April 13, 2014 Share Posted April 13, 2014 Are you Kelvin MacKenzie? I believe the coroner at the current inquest specifically asked that the jury should consider whether the actions of any of the fans may have contributed to the tragedy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitey1980 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) All of the sentiments made about Hillsborough are justified and Liverpool were plainly blameless. However there is still massive ill feeling towards Liverpool in Turin, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous. The reaction of their ultras in the Champions League game chronicled earlier in the thread is proof plenty of this. Also the actions of Liverpool (and many other clubs in fairness) fans in the 80's generally, were partly responsible for the justification of policing games as scandalously as they clearly were, and sometimes still are! There were also STILL Liverpool fans hurdling barriers leading to dangerous overcrowding in the Champions League final in Athens. Given the history of the club, that is truly unbelievable. I realise that none of that is politically correct, but whilst Liverpool football club is a magnificent institution, it has been let down by its supporters on many occasions. Thankfully for the blameless families of the victims, Hillsborough was not one of those. Edited April 14, 2014 by whitey1980 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I believe the coroner at the current inquest specifically asked that the jury should consider whether the actions of any of the fans may have contributed to the tragedyHe's the coroner, and he won't be a junior one, in fact he is probably the most senior coroner in the land, he's a Lord Justice. Doing that is part of his job, and he will be at least good, if not better than that, to get the case. A coroner is supposed to get as close as they can to finding out the cause of death and where, if any, blame lies for that. Doing that requires an open-mind, so that means that the actions of the fans on the day needs to be considered and it will be. I've no doubt that the actions of football fans helped caused Hillsborough, but that's football fans of every club in the land, from Aberdeen to Plymouth, Inverness to Dover, and everywhere in between helped contribute to Hillsborough. Without a series of pitch-invasions, without any trouble and fighting amongst the fans, there is no need for perimeter fences, and without the perimeter fences Hillsborough doesn't happen. But society as whole has to take some responsibility too, you shuffle humans from transport to pens and treat often honest, law-abiding human beings like animals then sometimes they are going to occasionally act out and behave like animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I don't think anybody is suggesting that the families, or others directly involved, move on. But maybe the rest of us might be allowed to. People who covered up errors on the day should be brought to book, that does not mean we have to indulge a group of people, who appear to wallow in self pity, by moving kick off times and having minutes of silence at every given opportunity. By all means do that at Anfield and Hillsborough, (and I'm sure Everton wouldn't want to miss out) but leave me out of it.You were. We didn't have a game yesterday, and we aren't doing it on Easter Monday (or even Good Friday). Kicking off 7 minutes late is a symbolic gesture, that could have easily meant for some an extra pint in the pub, or those that do like an extra pint, turning up on time. FWIW, I think some of the extra significance around the Hillsborough disaster is because the FA know they cocked up by giving Hillsborough the game considering the events of the season before and in 80 and 81. They are trying to absolve their own guilt, as are other elements of the establishment. As for Heysel, Bradford and Ibrox. Bradford and especially Heysel have their anniversaries usually after the season has finished, perhaps the football league should introduce a minutes silence into every play-off first leg for Bradford if the season has finished, which it seems to do regularly nowadays, by then, the Premier League could do something though as they often have a game that late in May. Plus, do the maths on the number of deaths for Bradford, Heysel and Hillsborough, however, death is death, and 1 person going to a football game and not being able to ever go home afterwards is 1 too many. Ibrox is a Scottish event, that gets coverage up there, but because of the way football is run, the English FA don't commemorate it, the same way, the Scottish FA had their games kick-off at the normal time yesterday. Heysel, like. Hillsborough, also has issues about organisation, that contributed to the disaster, but it is much harder to blame faceless European and Belgian officials, that known British officials, although as Rosa has pointed out, some Belgian officials have criminal records as a result of Heysel. However, 33 people died in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster that happened in March, but the coverage is far less than Bradford, Heysel, Ibrox and Hillsborough, perhaps there should be a routine minutes silence for the victims of that disaster too, but then again because they are Bolton fans I can see some elements of local clubs (including I'm sad to say us) disrupting it. But again as Rosa pointed out, this commemoration of tragedies shouldn't be a competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I believe the coroner at the current inquest specifically asked that the jury should consider whether the actions of any of the fans may have contributed to the tragedy Good. Maybe it will finally clear up some of the nonsense that continues to be spouted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) Hillsborough was an epic failure of the police, football authorities, local councils and emergency services. Heysel was an epic failure of the police, football authorities, local council and emergency services. The burden to keep people safe on a match day falls upon the various authorities and emergency services and not the fans. Its a massive coup out to blame the fans in any of these disasters in my opinion. Today if a similar situation that happened at Heysel or Hillsborough started to unfold in a modern day stadium the outcome would be hugely different which goes to prove my point. This playing off of disasters against each other is sick to be frank, and at the expense of the truth. Edited April 14, 2014 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Hillsborough was an epic failure of the police, football authorities, local councils and emergency services. Heysel was an epic failure of the police, football authorities, local council and emergency services. The burden to keep people safe on a match day falls upon the various authorities and emergency services and not the fans. Its a massive coup out to blame the fans in any of these disasters in my opinion. Today if a similar situation that happened at Heysel or Hillsborough started to unfold in a modern day stadium the outcome would be hugely different which goes to prove my point. This playing off of disasters against each other is sick to be frank, and at the expense of the truth. Here here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngen Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 City fans respected the minutes silence and this is how the Liverpool fans returned the gesture http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-city-fans-bus-attacked-6984349 Once again, not the first time the scum have been at it this season. I know its a minority, but i really struggle to feel any sympathy towards that football club and its fans. Its a shame, as the football they play is fantastic and they deserve to win the league, but they are the last team I want to win it aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) I know its a minority .....and so your argument dissolves at this point.... It was a bunch of idiot kids and you want to use it as a tool to hate the whole club... LMAO Edited April 14, 2014 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 City fans respected the minutes silence and this is how the Liverpool fans returned the gesture http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-city-fans-bus-attacked-6984349 Once again, not the first time the scum have been at it this season. I know its a minority, but i really struggle to feel any sympathy towards that football club and its fans. Its a shame, as the football they play is fantastic and they deserve to win the league, but they are the last team I want to win it aswell. You acknowledge that it was a minority, yet you say "this is how the Liverpool fans returned the gesture", ignoring that the vast majority of Liverpool fans were appreciative of the respect shown by the City fans. Presumably Crawley are justified in dismissing our entire support as 'scum' after a handful of dickheads bricked their coach last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Not saying in any way that an attack is justified, but do City fans deserve some sort of respect for observing a minute's silence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Not saying in any way that an attack is justified, but do City fans deserve some sort of respect for observing a minute's silence? They had a banner saying 'YNWA 96' and the club had a message of support in the programme as well. You'd like to think you could take it for granted that the minute's silence would be observed but once again it proved too much to ask for a section of the Chelsea support again yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Mikey Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 You were. We didn't have a game yesterday, and we aren't doing it on Easter Monday (or even Good Friday). Kicking off 7 minutes late is a symbolic gesture, that could have easily meant for some an extra pint in the pub, or those that do like an extra pint, turning up on time. A noble sentiment, thank goodness alcohol has never been associated with problems around football matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Not saying in any way that an attack is justified, but do City fans deserve some sort of respect for observing a minute's silence? I think its a mark of respect to do so... So yeah... Its a respectful act that should earn respect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 I think its a mark of respect to do so... So yeah... Its a respectful act that should earn respect... I just think it's the minimum to be expected. It's not asking much and you're a helluva dickhead if you act otherwise. But I take rosa's point above, hadn't realised about the banner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngen Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 .....and so your argument dissolves at this point.... It was a bunch of idiot kids and you want to use it as a tool to hate the whole club... LMAO When we have played them in the last few years, we have had racist taunting at Tom Adeyami, a scruffy awful away following at our place, and someone being stabbed at the fixture this year. Apologies if I dont take them as my 2nd club. Add this onto them bricking Hull/West Hams coaches and now Citys this season, and the minority might not be as small as it seems. And at no point did I say I hate them, although as many people 'hate' United/City/Leeds/Rochdale, I happen to have 'hate' for Liverpool, alongside Bradford Huddersfield and Blackpool, due to rivalry over the years I've been an OAFC fan. Hillsborough was a tragedy, I fully agree that their fans should chase justice, but I personally wasnt alive during the time and I have never met anyone personally involved in the tragedy. Are we going to have a minutes silence for the Bradford fire, Heysel, Ibrox, Munich air disaster? As a side note, didnt LMAO die with MSN Messenger. Dont forget to update how you're feeling with lots of smilies later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 A noble sentiment, thank goodness alcohol has never been associated with problems around football matches. You're the one who wanted to be left out of any commemoration of a disaster. I was telling you an easy way that you could have been if we had actually had a game last weekend. One that you could actually get some benefit from if you see it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 (edited) but I personally wasnt alive during the time and I have never met anyone personally involved in the tragedy What strange and bizarre "but"... As if that matters... I felt involved and I wasn't there that day... We where all herded into those death traps back in the day. It could of been us.... To think we aren't involved or connected to Hillsborough is frankly laughable... Similarly with Bradford... It could just as easily been Oldham fans being denied justice by the authorities.... It was an evil subjected to the whole of the football family back in the 80s. Its never just been Liverpools disaster, Liverpools injustice. Its always been bigger. It was injustice unloaded upon every football fan. We was viewed as subhuman and treated as such. Edited April 14, 2014 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 14, 2014 Share Posted April 14, 2014 Hillsborough was a tragedy, I fully agree that their fans should chase justice, but I personally wasnt alive during the time and I have never met anyone personally involved in the tragedy. I don't think any of us were alive during the first world war (maybe Diego), but we don't begrudge Remembrance Sunday. What a bizarre self-centred point to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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