alangroves Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 If we are honest with ourselves, our performances have been deteriorating for a while. The Rochdale result (against a severely depleted side) flattered us - an average performance eclipsed by the great support and sense of occasion. Now, my own thoughts concern the subsequently ill-fated departure of Paul Murray. He was an absolute class act as a player and will undoubtedly have exerted much influence behind the scenes with the squad. Personally, I said 'oh no' to myself when they announced Dean Holden as his replacement. Nothing against the fella but he was a very pedestrian defender for Latics years ago and simply is not in the same league 'football wise' as Paul Murray. Might it just be the case that the 'Murray magic' is now missing? Not saying it's the total reason but you cannot lose someone of his calibre without there being some detriment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaddy_Ender Posted December 21, 2014 Share Posted December 21, 2014 May be a case of too many cooks, I know its the way it is these days but I always feel too many ideas and input could have an unsettling effect, Dean Holden will have his own ideas and his appointment may have changed the squad dynamic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngen Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 (edited) Yes, our demise is Paul murrays fault. Edited December 22, 2014 by youngen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 WHen Tommy Wright came in I recall voices on here saying that he was disrupting what was already in place . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Yes, our demise is Paul murrays fault. Hartlepools fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leezyverpunk Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Think mebbe the players have to take a tad of responsibility here - whoever is behind the scenes dont tell um to go out there and play like a poor Sunday league team. But yes - definitely Monkeyhangers faults - the lousy gits!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangroves Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 I don't BLAME Paul Murray (or Hartlepool for that matter - though disgraceful how they treated him) because he would just wish to better himself as anyone would. I do feel. however, that we should have done everything in our power to keep him. When he played for us, he was simply the best on the park week in week out - a true midfield maestro with bundles of energy. I honestly thought our 'good' football when he was here was a reflection of his ethos and guile. Dean Holden was completely one dimensional and often the cause of us conceding goals with his lack of awareness and pace. Would never have been my choice - simply on the basis that you've got to have 'walked the walk' to 'talk the talk' and Dean Holden never did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I don't BLAME Paul Murray (or Hartlepool for that matter - though disgraceful how they treated him) because he would just wish to better himself as anyone would. I do feel. however, that we should have done everything in our power to keep him. When he played for us, he was simply the best on the park week in week out - a true midfield maestro with bundles of energy. I honestly thought our 'good' football when he was here was a reflection of his ethos and guile. Dean Holden was completely one dimensional and often the cause of us conceding goals with his lack of awareness and pace. Would never have been my choice - simply on the basis that you've got to have 'walked the walk' to 'talk the talk' and Dean Holden never did.whilst I think you may be right about the Paul Murray positive influence, it rarely follows that the most naturally talented make the best managers and coaches.You could argue Dean Holden worked his socks off to play at a higher level than his ability and he might instill that work ethic into the players. Let's hope its a temporary blip and the players had an inquest and got it all out if their system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Would never have been my choice - simply on the basis that you've got to have 'walked the walk' to 'talk the talk' and Dean Holden never did. Neither did Wenger or Mourinho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I don't BLAME Paul Murray (or Hartlepool for that matter - though disgraceful how they treated him) because he would just wish to better himself as anyone would. I do feel. however, that we should have done everything in our power to keep him. When he played for us, he was simply the best on the park week in week out - a true midfield maestro with bundles of energy. I honestly thought our 'good' football when he was here was a reflection of his ethos and guile. Dean Holden was completely one dimensional and often the cause of us conceding goals with his lack of awareness and pace. Would never have been my choice - simply on the basis that you've got to have 'walked the walk' to 'talk the talk' and Dean Holden never did. What sort of playing careers did Mourinho, Rodgers, Wenger have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangroves Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Granted - there are some excellent managers who have not been class players. As someone who has played at a lower level, though, I just think to myself, "Yes please I`d love to learn from Paul Murray" and absolutely "No, thank you - you can keep Dean Holden". He infuriated me as a player and no matter what courses he has been on nobody will ever convince me he is up to the job of coaching. Time will tell - hopefully not at Latics' expense. We were just starting to build up a head of steam - and it really has evaporated in spectacular style. It's pretty daft going on about being so close to play-offs etc. We are simply relying on 'points banked' at present - our performance levels have plummeted like lead through water - need to get to the bottom of why VERY QUICKLY or we'll be down to 2,200 core support - that would be disastrous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 I thought Murray's role was reserve team coach as we already had Tommy Wright, so how come Dean Holden is a first team coach - and what's Tommy's role, he still seems to be shouting from the touch line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangroves Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Dean Holden was appointed as first team coach to replace Paul Murray. Think Tommy Wright is 'assistant manager' or something (yes too many cooks can spoil a broth for sure!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangroves Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 Murray departed before Bristol City away - in the 9 games since then, we have Lost 4, Drawn 3 and Won 2. In the 9 games prior to that we Won 4 and Drew 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Murray departed before Bristol City away - in the 9 games since then, we have Lost 4, Drawn 3 and Won 2. In the 9 games prior to that we Won 4 and Drew 5. 9 points out of 27, or another way of looking at it - one point per game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dec666 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 9 points out of 27, or another way of looking at it - one point per game. 3 of those games were in cups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 3 of those games were in cups. Ah, thats killed the points theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alangroves Posted December 22, 2014 Author Share Posted December 22, 2014 It hasn't killed your theory - it's a theory so doesn't matter if cup or league - each is still a game. Basically, we were near as damn it 2 points a game for the 9 before Paul's departure - and 1 point a game thereafter. Very interesting and a phenomenal difference if taken over a season. Perhaps more interesting, is that it takes a little time for a previous incumbent's influence to wear off i.e. the Murray magic will have sprinkled for a little while after his departure. IF we are now seeing reality without him, then that is ominous. I genuinely hope I`m wrong but it is a theory I have held for a while - I sent a letter to the Chron about it after the Yeovil defeat but don't think they wanted to entertain any possible criticism of Dean Holden at such an early stage. I don't like criticising too much myself tbh but this is an honestly held belief - I would get Paul Murray back tomorrow personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted December 22, 2014 Share Posted December 22, 2014 Have a look at Walsall's defensive record over the past couple of years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slystallone Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 It's amazing how people can judge coaching ability based on former abilities as a player. Devils advocate but, Murray, whilst the more talented player, might have been a poor coach; and the reason we didnt fight tooth & nail to keep him is fir that reason? Holden, whildt limited in what he did as a player, could well be an exceptional coach now? Until i can hold an in-depth conversation with several of the players, who have worked day in; day out with both, i cannot possibly comment either way on this. And nor can anyone else for that matter; as we simply dont know what each does behind the scenes at training, around the dressing room and in management meetings etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty Burns Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I don't BLAME Paul Murray (or Hartlepool for that matter - though disgraceful how they treated him) because he would just wish to better himself as anyone would. I do feel. however, that we should have done everything in our power to keep him. When he played for us, he was simply the best on the park week in week out - a true midfield maestro with bundles of energy. I honestly thought our 'good' football when he was here was a reflection of his ethos and guile. Dean Holden was completely one dimensional and often the cause of us conceding goals with his lack of awareness and pace. Would never have been my choice - simply on the basis that you've got to have 'walked the walk' to 'talk the talk' and Dean Holden never did. Wouldn't really have been fair to have stood in his way. I think LJ would have considered how he would have felt in his place, he probably asked him if he wanted to go and once he said yes that was it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Most of opur players will barely have seen or indeed remember either Murray or Holden as players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmer1 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 im glad i didnt see Ferguson, Wenger or Mouriniho play.......poor players = poor managers, obviously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardie Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I thought Murray's role was reserve team coach as we already had Tommy Wright, so how come Dean Holden is a first team coach - and what's Tommy's role, he still seems to be shouting from the touch line? I'm not getting involved in this, but what, exactly, does a "first team coach" do? I always thought that the team's formation and style-of-play was developed and decided upon by the Manager. An Assistant Manager...yes, I get that...but a Coach as well?? I could be well out of line, but for me, the wage would have been better spent on another player. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Sinnott Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 im glad i didnt see Ferguson, Wenger or Mouriniho play.......poor players = poor managers, obviously Being a bit picky, but Ferguson was a very good player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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