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Did the FA get any blame? seems to me they allocated a totally inadequate ground.

I don't think it was any different to the other grounds that got semis at the time. OT, VIlla Park, Highbury, Maine Road. Bizarrely in those days grounds were allocated semis based on geography and which best suited fans for travel and not for making the most dosh.

Thank god for progress

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Justice at last...

Certain people still wish to make a cock of themselves. Let them... The are flying in the face of justice and are just plain embarrassing themselves. Putting tribal bull:censored: and their own hateful prejudices ahead of a massive miscarriage of justice.

Bored of arguing over Hillsborough now. The truth won... and c**ts will be c**ts...

 

Roll on the prosecutions now.

Edited by oafc0000
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Undoubtedly the 96 souls that perished inside that ground were unlawfully killed, and the absolutely disgraceful accounts of the police conduct, and Duckenfield in particular, court no sympathy.

 

However it was a different time, and the behaviour of a significant minority of people who attended football matches (I hesitate to use the word 'fans') was a disgrace.

 

I don't think (however much some would try) that you can completely disassociate the treatment of the disaster and its aftermath with the behaviour (and in fairness treatment) of supporters across Europe at this time.

 

The police will rightly get hammered and the loved ones are rightly vindicated, but football and society as a whole has a responsibility for an entirely heartbreaking tragedy.

Edited by whitey1980
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God there are some sanctimonious people on here. Why would the police changing statements have any relevance to what happened in the ground?

 

Let's not forget that similar "scumbag" police were jumping into burning stands in Bradford to pull people out.

 

Until I see evidence I will always doubt that the fans outside were completely innocent. Unless those people were complete saints, in utter opposition to the general climate of fans at the time.

 

As my original post did not imply though, noneof that exonerates the police.

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Until I see evidence I will always doubt that the fans outside were completely innocent.

 

I refer you to question 7 and the two year inquest and all the associated evidence.

 

And if that isn't enough, may I suggest you go back to school and get that education you missed out on ?

Edited by oafc0000
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God there are some sanctimonious people on here. Why would the police changing statements have any relevance to what happened in the ground?

 

Let's not forget that similar "scumbag" police were jumping into burning stands in Bradford to pull people out.

 

Until I see evidence I will always doubt that the fans outside were completely innocent. Unless those people were complete saints, in utter opposition to the general climate of fans at the time.

 

As my original post did not imply though, noneof that exonerates the police.

You're answering your own questions. It's been acknowledged that the fans did everything that you would have expected of a big crowd on a big day around then. Given that it should have been a simple matter to manage the situation. I've turned up late and :censored:faced enough times and I'm still breathing.
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It astonishes me that with all the information that is freely available about how the disaster happened, people still believe the lie pedalled by the police that it was caused by drunken ticketless fans.

 

There were ticketless fans at the game. But no more than any other game of that magnitude. And no more than what the police should be expected to cope with.

 

The overcrowding at the turnstiles wasn't caused by people without tickets. But by the fact that 10,000 people had to enter through only 7 turnstiles, and poor policing and organisation run by an inexperienced match commander led to massive congestion at the turnstiles and there not being a chance that they would all get in by 3pm.

 

And then add in the other factors that lead to that deadly crush. And then there is the pathetic response to the disaster as it was ongoing and afterwards by the police and the emergency services.

 

But no, its easier to just slag off the group of people you don't like and ignore any facts. For whatever reason, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

One thing I really don't like about a lot of football fans is that they don't see and treat fans of other clubs as the same as themselves. A lot of people don't like Liverpool fans and instead of seeing this as another, and the worst, example of the authorities treating football fans (us) on the whole like :censored:, they just see it as just Liverpool fans who deserve it. But this whole sorry episode isn't just about Liverpool fans. It could have been any of us. A year later we were in the FA Cup Semi final, so really, it could have been us in that situation.

 

This victory today, albeit a quarter of a century too late, is a victory for those families who will now hopefully get some serious justice for the killing of their loves ones. And its a victory for those supporters who had been accused wrongfully of causing the deaths of their fellow fans. As human beings, we should be glad that those families get a bit of closure and will hopefully now get justice. And as football fans we should all be glad that fellow football fans, whose scarf might be a different colour and who we might see as friends or rivals (depending on your view), will get some justice for their tragic loss of life and have been cleared of causing it.

 

No person should ever got to a football match and lose their life because of the incompetence of the people who should be protecting them.

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It astonishes me that with all the information that is freely available about how the disaster happened, people still believe the lie pedalled by the police that it was caused by drunken ticketless fans.

 

There were ticketless fans at the game. But no more than any other game of that magnitude. And no more than what the police should be expected to cope with.

 

The overcrowding at the turnstiles wasn't caused by people without tickets. But by the fact that 10,000 people had to enter through only 7 turnstiles, and poor policing and organisation run by an inexperienced match commander led to massive congestion at the turnstiles and there not being a chance that they would all get in by 3pm.

 

And then add in the other factors that lead to that deadly crush. And then there is the pathetic response to the disaster as it was ongoing and afterwards by the police and the emergency services.

 

But no, its easier to just slag off the group of people you don't like and ignore any facts. For whatever reason, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

One thing I really don't like about a lot of football fans is that they don't see and treat fans of other clubs as the same as themselves. A lot of people don't like Liverpool fans and instead of seeing this as another, and the worst, example of the authorities treating football fans (us) on the whole like :censored:, they just see it as just Liverpool fans who deserve it. But this whole sorry episode isn't just about Liverpool fans. It could have been any of us. A year later we were in the FA Cup Semi final, so really, it could have been us in that situation.

 

This victory today, albeit a quarter of a century too late, is a victory for those families who will now hopefully get some serious justice for the killing of their loves ones. And its a victory for those supporters who had been accused wrongfully of causing the deaths of their fellow fans. As human beings, we should be glad that those families get a bit of closure and will hopefully now get justice. And as football fans we should all be glad that fellow football fans, whose scarf might be a different colour and who we might see as friends or rivals (depending on your view), will get some justice for their tragic loss of life and have been cleared of causing it.

 

No person should ever got to a football match and lose their life because of the incompetence of the people who should be protecting them.

 

Nailed it.

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Who on earth said this was caused by fans? I said that I don't believe that the fans were innocent.

 

Maybe it's just my sterling education, but if you try and understand the point, then you'd realise that what I am arguing is that I don't believe that fans were blameless.

 

That does not exonerate the police, or turn the fans into mindless hooligans. Life isn't binary, it is possible for there to exist shades of grey.

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Who on earth said this was caused by fans? I said that I don't believe that the fans were innocent.

 

Maybe it's just my sterling education, but if you try and understand the point, then you'd realise that what I am arguing is that I don't believe that fans were blameless.

 

That does not exonerate the police, or turn the fans into mindless hooligans. Life isn't binary, it is possible for there to exist shades of grey.

 

 

contradiction

kɒntrəˈdɪkʃ(ə)n/
noun
  1. a combination of statements, ideas, or features which are opposed to one another.

 

Ultimately you are ignoring the evidence, the two year inquest and the verdict (question 7).... Why do you know better ?

Edited by oafc0000
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Who on earth said this was caused by fans? I said that I don't believe that the fans were innocent.

Maybe it's just my sterling education, but if you try and understand the point, then you'd realise that what I am arguing is that I don't believe that fans were blameless.

That does not exonerate the police, or turn the fans into mindless hooligans. Life isn't binary, it is possible for there to exist shades of grey.

It's a contradiction. Read it back. Other than turning up for the match and going where the police sent them fans didn't contribute.

 

Do you believe Spurs fans were not innocent for the 1981 problems that saw 38 people receive medical treatment?

 

That end of the ground was NOT full in 1989. It was the central pens that were squeezed, quite literally. The outer pens were nowhere near full. Best estimates suggest the full terrace was 350 below capacity. Implying virtually no ticketless fans were on it.

 

The police opened the exit gates. The crowd went through them, saw a tunnel in front of them and went down it. Nobody said they shouldn't. If you know the Leppings Lane End you'll know the entrances to the terrace at the sides of the stand aren't obviously visible.

 

It wasn't a surge. The people at the back didn't know there was a problem at the front. They inched forwards thinking space would free up for them, as it often would on a terrace. But the pen system meant it couldn't.

 

Those in charge of crowd control failed to control fans moving from outside the ground to concourse to terrace. Even the Taylor Report said so in 1989.

 

Fans as a collective did what they were instructed to do by the police. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Edited by opinions4u
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Who on earth said this was caused by fans? I said that I don't believe that the fans were innocent.

 

Maybe it's just my sterling education, but if you try and understand the point, then you'd realise that what I am arguing is that I don't believe that fans were blameless.

 

That does not exonerate the police, or turn the fans into mindless hooligans. Life isn't binary, it is possible for there to exist shades of grey.

The evidence points to the crowd behaving as you would expect a crowd to behave in such circumstances. It means that there could have been some ticketless fans and people who were drunk, but nothing beyond what was normally expected and could have been dealt with.

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Who on earth said this was caused by fans? I said that I don't believe that the fans were innocent.

 

Maybe it's just my sterling education, but if you try and understand the point, then you'd realise that what I am arguing is that I don't believe that fans were blameless.

 

That does not exonerate the police, or turn the fans into mindless hooligans. Life isn't binary, it is possible for there to exist shades of grey.

So, a very small number of fans are to blame because they got drunk at a football match?

I think you're the one being sanctimonious - you have taken a high minded view against those fans and apportioned a degree of blame to them.

But blame can only be attached to those who should be able to forsee the implications of their actions. Otherwise it's just an accident. There is no way the fans could be expected to forsee the outcome.

 

The police knew that the volume of fans approaching the turnstiles should have been managed. They knew the tunnel had to be managed. They failed to manage, despite a wealth of experience that demonstrated that this was necessary. They then lied to avoid blame, hide the truth and pervert the course of justice.

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Not sure he contradicts himself with the two highlighted statements...seem to be making the same point to me.

If you don't have a part in causing something you can't be blamed. It's contradictory, but that's the least of his problems.

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Surprised they never knocked that stand down.

 

And by the lack of a proper memorial at the ground.

Having spent a couple of years living in Sheffield, with both a Liverpool fan (actually from Liverpool!!!) and a Wednesday fan. The reaction I got when I asked whether the stand should be knocked down was, from the Liverpool fan, very torn, he admitted that he would not know how he felt if (and when) it happened.

 

The reaction from the Wednesday fan was 'I really wish people would stop going on about it' by that he ment the distaster not just the long term use of the stand. My feeling was that a lot of Wednesday fans just wanted the whole thing confined to the history books.

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It astonishes me that with all the information that is freely available about how the disaster happened, people still believe the lie pedalled by the police that it was caused by drunken ticketless fans.

 

There were ticketless fans at the game. But no more than any other game of that magnitude. And no more than what the police should be expected to cope with.

 

The overcrowding at the turnstiles wasn't caused by people without tickets. But by the fact that 10,000 people had to enter through only 7 turnstiles, and poor policing and organisation run by an inexperienced match commander led to massive congestion at the turnstiles and there not being a chance that they would all get in by 3pm.

 

And then add in the other factors that lead to that deadly crush. And then there is the pathetic response to the disaster as it was ongoing and afterwards by the police and the emergency services.

 

But no, its easier to just slag off the group of people you don't like and ignore any facts. For whatever reason, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

One thing I really don't like about a lot of football fans is that they don't see and treat fans of other clubs as the same as themselves. A lot of people don't like Liverpool fans and instead of seeing this as another, and the worst, example of the authorities treating football fans (us) on the whole like :censored:, they just see it as just Liverpool fans who deserve it. But this whole sorry episode isn't just about Liverpool fans. It could have been any of us. A year later we were in the FA Cup Semi final, so really, it could have been us in that situation.

 

This victory today, albeit a quarter of a century too late, is a victory for those families who will now hopefully get some serious justice for the killing of their loves ones. And its a victory for those supporters who had been accused wrongfully of causing the deaths of their fellow fans. As human beings, we should be glad that those families get a bit of closure and will hopefully now get justice. And as football fans we should all be glad that fellow football fans, whose scarf might be a different colour and who we might see as friends or rivals (depending on your view), will get some justice for their tragic loss of life and have been cleared of causing it.

 

No person should ever got to a football match and lose their life because of the incompetence of the people who should be protecting them.

The best post I've ever read on this forum

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God there are some sanctimonious people on here. Why would the police changing statements have any relevance to what happened in the ground?

 

Let's not forget that similar "scumbag" police were jumping into burning stands in Bradford to pull people out.

 

Until I see evidence I will always doubt that the fans outside were completely innocent. Unless those people were complete saints, in utter opposition to the general climate of fans at the time.

 

As my original post did not imply though, noneof that exonerates the police.

What more evidence do you want? So ignorant.

 

FANS WERE NOT TO BLAME. A two year inquest has now given the definitive answer. They went to a football match and behaved in the same way that Latics fans behaved at matches. 96 of them didn't come home. No one has said they were saints, they were ordinary football fans doing what ordinary football fans do, trying to watch their team. If you think that places blame on them then I really don't know what to say.

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What more evidence do you want? So ignorant.

 

FANS WERE NOT TO BLAME. A two year inquest has now given the definitive answer. They went to a football match and behaved in the same way that Latics fans behaved at matches. 96 of them didn't come home. No one has said they were saints, they were ordinary football fans doing what ordinary football fans do, trying to watch their team. If you think that places blame on them then I really don't know what to say.

The unlawfully killed verdict was a majority one; suggesting there were member of the jury that also had a differing opinion.

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The unlawfully killed verdict was a majority one; suggesting there were member of the jury that also had a differing opinion.

It was 7:2 and on the Unlawfully killed question only I believe. The rest was unanimous, including were the fans to blame. The judge said this was acceptable. That is the way our justice system has worked for the last few hundred years, unless you want to question the judicial whole system now?

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