Dave_Og Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 As I don't see many games I don't generally comment on individual players' abilities, good bad or indifferent - but there isn't much that's more annoying (in the context of this board - there are many things in life which bother me more) than reading that someone has made a judgement that a player is not up to it after 20 minutes, a couple of games or anything up to what any reasonable person might think a reasonable amount of time. Regardless of whether the fullness of time demonstrates such opinions to be right or wrong they are completely and utterly without value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplythemostimportantkick Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 :censored: thread got no legs to it. Just can't see it improving. I mean I would love to be wrong but ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueatheart Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 :censored: thread got no legs to it. Just can't see it improving. I mean I would love to be wrong but ...... Beat me to it! Players need time but people can only comment on what they have seen them play. Taylor was terrible on Saturday but I've not written him off yet. IIRC McLaughlin was slagged off early on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolatic Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Trouble is, once that snap decision has been made, that player becomes an instant boo boy with those that haven't given him a chance. Eardley and Taylor certainly fell into that category. I recall two particular incidents. One, at Bristol Rovers, where one "fan" was giving Dean Brill absolute pelters. We know he wasn't the greatest keeper we've ever had, but this started the minute they came out for the warm up and ended at the final whistle. It was all I heard throughout the game and wondered if Brill was maybe the only player we had on the pitch. The other was at Colchester where just one bloke (not the same one) got stuck into Reuben Reid right from the kick off. One cry was "get after the bloody thing, Reid" when the ball was actually in our keeper's hands. "Bloody useless Reid" when we were defending a corner and Reid was on the half way line. A full 90 plus minutes of it, during which I offered him my programme so he could learn some of the other players' names. I'm pretty certain that these incidents all stemmed from both players' very early days with Latics and, whilst we knew neither of them were world beaters, the :censored: well and truly stuck. So, in answer to the OP, I wish you well in your quest for certain factions of the fan base to give players a chance but, sadly, there are a fair few that are not prepared to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 As I don't see many games I don't generally comment on individual players' abilities, good bad or indifferent - but there isn't much that's more annoying (in the context of this board - there are many things in life which bother me more) than reading that someone has made a judgement that a player is not up to it after 20 minutes, a couple of games or anything up to what any reasonable person might think a reasonable amount of time. Regardless of whether the fullness of time demonstrates such opinions to be right or wrong they are completely and utterly without value. This one is unique though with only the racists among us willing to give the lad a chance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfluff1985 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 This one is unique though with only the racists among us willing to give the lad a chance... ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 As I don't see many games I don't generally comment on individual players' abilities, good bad or indifferent - but there isn't much that's more annoying (in the context of this board - there are many things in life which bother me more) than reading that someone has made a judgement that a player is not up to it after 20 minutes, a couple of games or anything up to what any reasonable person might think a reasonable amount of time. Regardless of whether the fullness of time demonstrates such opinions to be right or wrong they are completely and utterly without value. I can only assume this is related to Ngoo. If it is, then while I haven't written the lad off for the reasons you give above, I am worried he could be the worst footballer I've ever seen simply due to his sheer inability to keep upright. I have never seen someone in a blue shirt literally struggle on their legs like he does. At one point, he got his head down and set off running and just completely fell over. I can only hope this is because he is trying too hard and Shez has a word with him to calm down a bit. In the past, other players have been targeted for abuse for very little (and any abuse during a game is completely out of order whether a player is bad or not.) There are reasons why Ngoo is being mentioned in a poor light though. At present, he hasn't shown anything other than being on a lucky ticket to play football for a pro club. I hope he improves massively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forte_Baby Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Thing with some fans who don't and cannot attend they automatically assume what some individuals fans say and make there own judgement up. Agree players do need time but bearing the odd one where it can be clear after a few games if there clearly not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 We make snap judgements in all walks of life, football included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Sinnott Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I think, even after 20 mins of seeing them play, you can get a fairly good idea on whether someone can play a bit or not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Like life, the population is divided into those that are judegmental, and those that are keep their options open. Like life, neither are always correct, and there are various shades. It's OK forming a quick judgement, IMHO, if you are prepared to admit you were wrong or hasty if evidence proves the contrary. I think some of us can over simplifying a player, categorising them as either brilliant or crap. But yes, it's most annoying those that form a judgement as he signs, and then won't change their view. no matter what. Curtis Main last season was a prime example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I think, even after 20 mins of seeing them play, you can get a fairly good idea on whether someone can play a bit or not... You can, but on the other side of the coin I've seen 20 minute cameos which flatter to deceive. Does anyone remember the debut of Tony Foster in the 1960s?, we all thought he was a world beater, his next few appearances were full of mistakes and he disappeared shortly after into oblivion. I have to say though everyone was right on the snap judgment of Lord Kangana, the most hair raising 20 minutes of defending ever seen at BP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 We make snap judgements in all walks of life, football included. I think it is exacerbated many fold for oyu BP, given the job you had. As a scout, managers jobs must have relied on those quick judgements, and you didn't get much time to evaluate I'm sure. But I think even you would agree, a snap judgement could never be 100% right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 You can, but on the other side of the coin I've seen 20 minute cameos which flatter to deceive. Does anyone remember the debut of Tony Foster in the 1960s?, we all thought he was a world beater, his next few appearances were full of mistakes and he disappeared shortly after into oblivion. I have to say though everyone was right on the snap judgment of Lord Kangana, the most hair raising 20 minutes of defending ever seen at BP. Cameron Dummigan's first 20 mins at was truly atrocious. Not a single pass was made. Luckily he improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapegoat Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I think that there is a difference between debating the merits or lack of, on a forum / with your mates in the pub or in your seat at the game - no matter how little time you have seen of a player... And Screaming abuse during the game at levels that are audible to the players. The former is always OK in my mind. Very quickly into the Chesterfield game my Dad and I commented early on that O'Neill looked like a good player - some nice close control, picked a few good early passes, always looked hungry for the ball and found himself space. Similarly we commented that Taylor looked OK, but not really at the pace we recall him having previously. On that same basis, nothing from Ngoo so far in the substitute appearances has done anything to make me think he is a bit of a cumbersome and clumsy player. Fans opinions will change overtime - some get better, some fall into the flatter to deceive camp and fail to live up to the early optimism. This type of discussion and difference of opinions are what make talking football good fun. Balling abuse at the game....never right in my opinion. Think I got close with Phil Starbuck away at a Wigan at the old knackered stadium (feel angry about him even now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) I think it is exacerbated many fold for oyu BP, given the job you had. As a scout, managers jobs must have relied on those quick judgements, and you didn't get much time to evaluate I'm sure. But I think even you would agree, a snap judgement could never be 100% right. I have made judgements on one appearance, some right like Chris Waddle in non league when I was told by the assistant manger of the top flight club I was at he would never make a footballer in any division of the football league. He admitted later my snap judgement was right and he made a big mistake as it was some 6 months later before he signed for Newcastle. My snap judgement on Matt Smith at Droylsden was wrong though, maybe clouded by the fact Droylsden were an outstanding passing team at the time and never put the ball in the air. Edited February 13, 2017 by BP1960 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Sinnott Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Cameron Dummigan's first 20 mins at was truly atrocious. Not a single pass was made. Luckily he improved. Has he..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Andy Ritchie's debut at West Brom was instantly forgettable and look how he turned out!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Andy Ritchie's debut at West Brom was instantly forgettable and look how he turned out!! And David Shaw looked only a roadrunner with no skills on his debut, we saw much more later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hands on Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I found Ngoo most entertaining. We had a number of players who slipped but he outdid them all possibly due to a high centre of gravity. He did however play a part in the McLaughlin goal by pulling some of their players away with his run and great decoy stumble. Seriously for whatever reason their defending took a nose dive after he came on the field of play and he must get some credit for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I doubt many of us thought Bertrand would make a third division defender in his first 5 games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disjointed Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 If you are going to judge on first 20 minutes or even first 90 minutes, I give you Jake Cassidy at Walsall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Reckords first 15 minutes at Millwall told me a lot about the lad. And he's lived up (or down if you prefer) to my expectations completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I get annoyed when some fans don't appear to recognise potential in some players. Tarky and Eardley are good examples, they have both played at higher levels than us but did their early development with us. When a young player comes through very few are the finished article and it takes a few rickets for them to start to make the improvements they need to make. This season I am enjoying watching Fane and Osei, they are both young, raw and need a lot of polishing. Both are making mistakes and not getting the basics right but there are players in both of them but they both have to work hard to get the careers that they are capable of. Same as Matt Smith, a limited player but once he started making the most of his abilities and teams play to his strengths he will have a career that doesn't make him regret giving up his studies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBosch Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) I get annoyed when some fans don't appear to recognise potential in some players. Tarky and Eardley are good examples, I'd say they were bad examples as both were immediately amongst the best players in the sides they came into rather than just having potential. Yet still they got a lot of flak from certain quarters. Taylor too. I don't think it's about recognising or not recognising potential but more a really weird desire from some to see local lads/youth products fail and to see fellow supporters who want them to succeed disappointed or proven "wrong" about them. Edited February 14, 2017 by HarryBosch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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