Hillsborough

[opinions4u]

The unlawfully killed verdict was a majority one; suggesting there were member of the jury that also had a differing opinion.

And drop back from unlawfully killed and you have, to paraphrase, "the copper's negligence caused it but not in a criminal way".

 

In that context, it's still not the fans.

[longtimeblue]

It was 7:2 and on the Unlawfully killed question only I believe. The rest was unanimous, including were the fans to blame. The judge said this was acceptable. That is the way our justice system has worked for the last few hundred years, unless you want to question the judicial whole system now?

I'm not questioning the judicial system (or the verdict). Personally, just pleased the families of the 96 can now get some form of closure.

[oafc0000]

I dont think many of them will get closure until people are held accountable. Its now over to the CPS.

 

Yesterday was just the first stage of winning the fight for justice in many people's eyes.

Edited April 27, 2016 by oafc0000

[deyres42]

They replayed some of the Sport On 2 show from the day yesterday, struck me how they were still taking reports from other games as it was unfolding.

 

I'm too young to remember him but beautiful words from Peter Jones at the end.

[opinions4u]

They replayed some of the Sport On 2 show from the day yesterday, struck me how they were still taking reports from other games as it was unfolding.

 

I'm too young to remember him but beautiful words from Peter Jones at the end.

His radio commentary at 2:58 mentioned the crush. Those in charge weren't as observant.

[Buckshawlatic]

It astonishes me that with all the information that is freely available about how the disaster happened, people still believe the lie pedalled by the police that it was caused by drunken ticketless fans.

 

There were ticketless fans at the game. But no more than any other game of that magnitude. And no more than what the police should be expected to cope with.

 

The overcrowding at the turnstiles wasn't caused by people without tickets. But by the fact that 10,000 people had to enter through only 7 turnstiles, and poor policing and organisation run by an inexperienced match commander led to massive congestion at the turnstiles and there not being a chance that they would all get in by 3pm.

 

And then add in the other factors that lead to that deadly crush. And then there is the pathetic response to the disaster as it was ongoing and afterwards by the police and the emergency services.

 

But no, its easier to just slag off the group of people you don't like and ignore any facts. For whatever reason, people will believe what they want to believe.

 

One thing I really don't like about a lot of football fans is that they don't see and treat fans of other clubs as the same as themselves. A lot of people don't like Liverpool fans and instead of seeing this as another, and the worst, example of the authorities treating football fans (us) on the whole like :censored:, they just see it as just Liverpool fans who deserve it. But this whole sorry episode isn't just about Liverpool fans. It could have been any of us. A year later we were in the FA Cup Semi final, so really, it could have been us in that situation.

 

This victory today, albeit a quarter of a century too late, is a victory for those families who will now hopefully get some serious justice for the killing of their loves ones. And its a victory for those supporters who had been accused wrongfully of causing the deaths of their fellow fans. As human beings, we should be glad that those families get a bit of closure and will hopefully now get justice. And as football fans we should all be glad that fellow football fans, whose scarf might be a different colour and who we might see as friends or rivals (depending on your view), will get some justice for their tragic loss of life and have been cleared of causing it.

 

No person should ever got to a football match and lose their life because of the incompetence of the people who should be protecting them.

Can we not ban this fella??

 

Far too reasoned and sensible for round here

[Pine Villains]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6686867.stm

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/27/heysel-stadium-disaster-30th-anniversary

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/29/heysel-anniversary-juventus-liverpool_n_1551780.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/feb/11/liverpool-kenny-dalglish-luis-suarez

[De_La_Vega]

I just don't get it clearly.

 

I cannot understand how with all the towering intellects on display here, nobody seems able to comprehend a world where the answer is not yes/no.

 

Why did the police outside open the gates? Because they were evil? Stupid? Lazy? Saw an opportunity to crush some football fans?

 

The decisions made by the police stemmed from something, and from my experience of football it will have been the situation outside the ground. In my experience that atmosphere can be toxic, back then I'm pretty sure evidence suggests things were worse.

 

In my mind I cannot see my way to a scenario where there is no culpability whatsoever on fans outside.

 

Oh, and just to clarify, that is not blaming them or whitewashing the police. Just in case anyone strugglesto grasp that point.

[oafc0000]

Maybe you should start with the two years of gathered evidence. Your mind or experiences are not required. All the hard work has been done for you.

 

You are just very actively ignoring and remaining intentionally ignorant on the matter. Not sure why...

[TheBigDog]

If you don't have a part in causing something you can't be blamed. It's contradictory, but that's the least of his problems.

"I don't believe that the fans were blameless"

"I don't believe the fans were innocent"

Nothing contradictory there.

[rosa]

 

Why did the police outside open the gates? Because they were evil? Stupid? Lazy? Saw an opportunity to crush some football fans?

Because the match commander David Duckinfield (who,it was established during the inquest, should never have been put in charge of the match, having not even been on duty at any game at Hillsborough for 10 years, and who didnt familiarise himself with the layout of the ground when he was appointed match commander at short notice) didn't look at the match command plan used the previous year and didn't take the measures employed the previous year to stream fans on the approach to the Leppings Lane end, to mitigate the small number of turnstiles and bottleneck in the layout of the ground. As a result of both this and traffic problems on the Snake Pass delaying some fans, a crush started to build up outside the ground, and a PC outside the ground told Duckinfield that if the gate wasn't opened people would be killed. Unfortunately Duckinfield didn't give an order for the tunnel to the already full central pens to be closed before the gate was opened.

[Wozzer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6686867.stm

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/27/heysel-stadium-disaster-30th-anniversary

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/29/heysel-anniversary-juventus-liverpool_n_1551780.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/feb/11/liverpool-kenny-dalglish-luis-suarez

I'm not sure how Luis Suarez being a monumental bell end relates in any way to the incompetence of South Yorkshire police and their subsequent cover up. You clearly have an agenda, I don't think the rest of us necessarily buy into it but your point is noted. Move on. Please.

[schmee]

God there are some sanctimonious people on here. Why would the police changing statements have any relevance to what happened in the ground?

 

Let's not forget that similar "scumbag" police were jumping into burning stands in Bradford to pull people out.

 

Until I see evidence I will always doubt that the fans outside were completely innocent. Unless those people were complete saints, in utter opposition to the general climate of fans at the time.

 

As my original post did not imply though, noneof that exonerates the police.

 

Exactly how stupid are you?

 

You posted this crap earlier in this thread. I replied with conclusions taken directly from the Taylor Report after it looked at the evidence regarding drunken fans and ticketless fans being possible causes of the disaster. If you are willing to ignore any evidence put in front of you then of course you're always going to be demanding to be shown some.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/6686867.stm

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/may/27/heysel-stadium-disaster-30th-anniversary

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/29/heysel-anniversary-juventus-liverpool_n_1551780.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/feb/11/liverpool-kenny-dalglish-luis-suarez

 

 

Exactly how do any of those issues relate to Hillsborough. As stated above the issues of drunken, late and ticketless fans were investigated and results of that published over 20 years ago.

 

If you have an issue with Liverpool fans then that's your choice. Taking your dislike for Liverpool fans and continuously posting irrelevant crap into this thread does nothing to help your argument. Instead all it does is make you look like an ill-informed idiot.

[real]

I just don't get it clearly.

 

I cannot understand how with all the towering intellects on display here, nobody seems able to comprehend a world where the answer is not yes/no.

 

Why did the police outside open the gates? Because they were evil? Stupid? Lazy? Saw an opportunity to crush some football fans?

 

The decisions made by the police stemmed from something, and from my experience of football it will have been the situation outside the ground. In my experience that atmosphere can be toxic, back then I'm pretty sure evidence suggests things were worse.

 

In my mind I cannot see my way to a scenario where there is no culpability whatsoever on fans outside.

 

Oh, and just to clarify, that is not blaming them or whitewashing the police. Just in case anyone strugglesto grasp that point.

Read the evidence.

 

Why was there a crowding problem outside the gates that year?

Because the police did not manage the flow of fans into the alleyway. In previous well attended games they managed the flow to avoid any pressure outside the turnstiles. This time, despite their experience they didn't.

It's all there in the evidence.

[Diego_Sideburns]

The current Chief Constable of South Yorkshire has been suspended due to the erosion of public trust and confidence.

[piglinbland]

What is shocking is the way the police treated the victims and their families as soon as the plan was concocted to blame the fans.

 

Grieving families unable to touch or kiss their nearest and dearest, the deceased tested for alcohol content - even children, and the inappropriate questioning regarding alcohol consumption of the victims.

 

In a wider context, the South Yorkshire police had (as an institution and in the aftermath of the miners strike), to a certain extent turned from an accountable public service into the establishment's private militia.

It isn't really surprising that it's taken over 25 years to get to grips with the enormity of what really happened - or that some still believe the lies that were so deeply seeded that day.

Edited April 27, 2016 by piglinbland

[UpTheLatics]

What is shocking is the way the police treated the victims and their families as soon as the plan was concocted to blame the fans.

 

Grieving families unable to touch or kiss their nearest and dearest, the deceased tested for alcohol content - even children, and the inappropriate questioning regarding alcohol consumption of the victims.

 

In a wider context, the South Yorkshire police had (as an institution and in the aftermath of the miners strike), to a certain extent turned from an accountable public service into the establishment's private militia.

It isn't really surprising that it's taken over 25 years to get to grips with the enormity of what really happened - or that some still believe the lies that were so deeply seeded that day.

 

I entirely agree with this.

 

For those struggling to get their heads around the mindset of the South Yorkshire police, read about the events at the Orgreave coking plant in 1984 during the miners' strike. They used every violent trick in the book, savagely assaulted the President of the National Union of Mineworkers and colluded with the right-wing newspapers. There was an orchestrated anti-working class mentality pushed by the largest of establishment figures, including Margaret Thatcher.

 

You have, even before those awful events in 1989, a corrupt, militant police force. Now add that to the anti-hooliganism rhetoric from Thatcher's Tory government and the anti-working class agenda to that corrupt, militant police force and it should begin to make sense. Did they intentionally cause the deaths of 96 people? I am confident that that is not the case, but their actions within a couple of hours of the disaster i.e. editing of police statements, briefing the same editors of the same newspapers suggests what we know: a corrupt, militant police force with a negligent and often aggressive set of policing tactics that will stoop ot inhumane standards to defend itself.

[Butter]

Wasn't there a big crash on the motorway leading to a lot of Liverpool fans turning up late? Hence the problem of the crowding at the gate that hadn't been seen at games previous,

[oafc0000]

Wasn't there a big crash on the motorway leading to a lot of Liverpool fans turning up late? Hence the problem of the crowding at the gate that hadn't been seen at games previous,

 

Fans turning up late due to a motorway delay was hardly unusual... The speed at which the turnstile could admit people and the way the police didn't manage the crowds made it a none issue anyway....

Edited April 27, 2016 by oafc0000

[underdog]

I remember some of that day, latics were at home and I decided not to go as it was two days before my 18th birthday and decided I needed a dress for my party the week after. Spent the day in manchester shopping.

 

Got the dress and was walking back up George St when it wasn't pedestrianised for those oldies but open to traffic, side of st Pete's precinct as it was then, or the young generation it's the back of debenhams entrance now spindles.

 

Walking up the road there was a TV shop, wildbores I think and all the tvs in the window were on but no sound and I could read the teletext wording say crowd trouble, I said then that's not crowd trouble. It was blatantly obvious to me at 18 that was not crowd trouble.

 

Think the next week we played hull city away and they decided for us away fans not to charge the full entrance fee but to make a donation instead.

 

It's one of those moment is time where you can remember where you were.

Edited April 27, 2016 by underdog

[oafc0000]

Vivid memories...

 

I went to the game with my Dad. Got home to a pretty upset mum who had been out shopping and just heard about deaths at a match. No internet back then so mums being mums started to worry it might be us even though she had heard it was at the semi final.... All got home about the same time and then learn't about it via the TV. We had heard at the match about some "trouble" at the semi final but I didn't know more. Not sure if my dad was just trying to protect me from it. Really messed my head up to be honest and found it very scary. Its blatantly obvious it could of easily have been us, or any football fan.

 

Was it the next day the Scum printed the photos of the fans crushed against the fences. Wished I had never seen those photos. You can't unsee them

Edited April 27, 2016 by oafc0000

[TafkaN]

27 years on, the events at Hillsborough are still terrible to read about. After this week's verdict, there are still so many factors involved. Why was this venue chosen for the tie after previous incidents? Does that lay some blame on the FA?

 

I have a friend whose wife was a 19 year-old WPC on duty that day. She was in the Leppings lane terrace helping fans who had collapsed and been crushed. She also noticed a colleague had collapsed and went to assist, finding him face down with footprints on his back having been trampled. Whilst helping her colleague, she was punched, kicked, spat on and called a "murdering bastard" by some of the fans on that terrace. This is in her statement in the public domain.

 

I have no doubt the main issues caused on the day were down to crowd management, but this was a horrific event is never going to be a case of black and white - despite the failings of the match commanders, nobody can condone the behaviour of people kicking a 19 year-old WPC trying to assist people.

Edited April 27, 2016 by TafkaN

[leeslover]

27 years on, the events at Hillsborough are still terrible to read about. After this week's verdict, there are still so many factors involved. Why was this venue chosen for the tie after previous incidents? Does that lay some blame on the FA?

 

I have a friend whose wife was a 19 year-old WPC on duty that day. She was in the Leppings lane terrace helping fans who had collapsed and been crushed. She also noticed a colleague had collapsed and went to assist, finding him face down with footprints on his back having been trampled. Whilst helping her colleague, she was punched, kicked, spat on and called a "murdering bastard" by some of the fans on that terrace. This is in her statement in the public domain.

 

I have no doubt the main issues caused on the day were down to crowd management, but this was a horrific event is never going to be a case of black and white - despite the failings of the match commanders, nobody can condone the behaviour of people kicking a 19 year-old WPC trying to assist people.

It seems increasingly likely that your friend's wife was prevailed upon to lie by a large organised corrupt body of bent coppers, led by the Masons. She might go to jail for it. Sorry, but that's the facts.

[singe]

27 years on, the events at Hillsborough are still terrible to read about. After this week's verdict, there are still so many factors involved. Why was this venue chosen for the tie after previous incidents? Does that lay some blame on the FA?

 

I have a friend whose wife was a 19 year-old WPC on duty that day. She was in the Leppings lane terrace helping fans who had collapsed and been crushed. She also noticed a colleague had collapsed and went to assist, finding him face down with footprints on his back having been trampled. Whilst helping her colleague, she was punched, kicked, spat on and called a "murdering bastard" by some of the fans on that terrace. This is in her statement in the public domain.

 

I have no doubt the main issues caused on the day were down to crowd management, but this was a horrific event is never going to be a case of black and white - despite the failings of the match commanders, nobody can condone the behaviour of people kicking a 19 year-old WPC trying to assist people.

 

It seems increasingly likely that your friend's wife was prevailed upon to lie by a large organised corrupt body of bent coppers, led by the Masons. She might go to jail for it. Sorry, but that's the facts.

Lies were being maintained for 27 years and throughout much of the 2 years of the trial. Whether what happened to your friend is true only she and a few others really know. But a two year inquest has not found in her favour, maybe no evidence to support it. As someone so young, she may have been under more pressure and leaned on more than others.

A very long shadow has been cast over the police in recent years, including Hillsborough, West Midlands Serious Crimes Unit and the Downing Street police, and despite a majority of honest and good police, it is going to take a long time for trust and belief in the police to be regained. IF it ever can.

Edited April 28, 2016 by singe

[opinions4u]

Question 7: behaviour of the supporters

 

Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

 

Jury’s answer: No.

 

If your answer to the question above is “no”, then was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?

 

Jury’s answer: No.