Hillsborough

[peanuts]

will add this to the debate copied from facebook

I have considered carefully what I want to say here about Hillsborough. The media coverage over the past few days, comments in the House of Commons and the suspension of the South Yorkshire Chief Constable all persuade me to post my thoughts.

I was a Constable, Sergeant and Inspector in South Yorkshire Police and served 17yrs before leaving to run a family business. I was there on the pitch at Hillsborough when the tragedy occurred working as a PC in a public order serial which had been called into the ground when the shout went up for assistance.

I witnessed the lack of command. The almost complete radio silence from the control room at the ground and the ridiculous decision to line up our serial in front of the Notts fans to prevent a pitch invasion whilst people at the Leppings Lane end were in obvious trouble.

I broke ranks at that moment with several other officers and began helping the injured from the pitch because it was obvious that senior commanders were not reacting to the situation as they should have been.

There is no doubt in my mind that poor policing decisions led to the deaths that day and it comes as no surprise that those in charge tried to deflect the blame. The culture in the force at that time was demonstrated in person by the majority of the Chief Superintendents and senior Command team. I have never come across a more arrogant, pompous and unlikeable group of individuals. They had absolute power over their Divisions (Districts now) and were completely unaccountable. What they said went and they were completely but mistakenly self assured in their ability.

That it took so long to discover the depth of the cover up from the then Chief Constable Peter Wright to the Chief Superintendents and those under their direct command is no surprise to me as no one would have dared to speak out.

What does offend me however is the headline in todays edition of “i” which screams ROTTEN TO THE CORE. Well that's not true either. The huge majority of officers on duty that day did just that – their duty. They helped where they could, used initiative when the chain of command failed and should be commended for their work.

The current Chief Constable David Compton has been suspended by the Police and Crime Commissioner Dr Alan Billings. Yes he takes responsibility for the force but he wasn't there 27 years ago. It looks as though he was suspended because he tried to defend his force during the inquest proceedings. I think our Dr Billings is coming up for re election and needs to be able to say to the electorate “look how tough I am”. This has nothing to do with proportionality.

And the fans – yes like all football crowds some of their number were intoxicated. I know because I saw it and we were confiscating beer from vehicles all morning. A huge haul of trays of lager and beer cans which had been brought to drink before the match. This was nothing unusual. This was the culture at the time and the reason fans were penned in like sheep at all grounds. Their behaviour in the previous decade had necessitated separation because of continued violence. So to say the fans had no responsibility is also wrong. Perhaps on the day the fans did not contribute directly to the 96 deaths but as a group their general behaviour over previous years had led to the point of wire cages on terraces.

Yes, let the people responsible face the music. Yes let Chief Superintendent Duckenfield and his immediate team be called to account but please don't call South Yorkshire Police rotten to the core. It wasn't then and I don't believe it is now.

[whitey1980]

will add this to the debate copied from facebook

I have considered carefully what I want to say here about Hillsborough. The media coverage over the past few days, comments in the House of Commons and the suspension of the South Yorkshire Chief Constable all persuade me to post my thoughts.

I was a Constable, Sergeant and Inspector in South Yorkshire Police and served 17yrs before leaving to run a family business. I was there on the pitch at Hillsborough when the tragedy occurred working as a PC in a public order serial which had been called into the ground when the shout went up for assistance.

I witnessed the lack of command. The almost complete radio silence from the control room at the ground and the ridiculous decision to line up our serial in front of the Notts fans to prevent a pitch invasion whilst people at the Leppings Lane end were in obvious trouble.

I broke ranks at that moment with several other officers and began helping the injured from the pitch because it was obvious that senior commanders were not reacting to the situation as they should have been.

There is no doubt in my mind that poor policing decisions led to the deaths that day and it comes as no surprise that those in charge tried to deflect the blame. The culture in the force at that time was demonstrated in person by the majority of the Chief Superintendents and senior Command team. I have never come across a more arrogant, pompous and unlikeable group of individuals. They had absolute power over their Divisions (Districts now) and were completely unaccountable. What they said went and they were completely but mistakenly self assured in their ability.

That it took so long to discover the depth of the cover up from the then Chief Constable Peter Wright to the Chief Superintendents and those under their direct command is no surprise to me as no one would have dared to speak out.

What does offend me however is the headline in todays edition of i which screams ROTTEN TO THE CORE. Well that's not true either. The huge majority of officers on duty that day did just that their duty. They helped where they could, used initiative when the chain of command failed and should be commended for their work.

The current Chief Constable David Compton has been suspended by the Police and Crime Commissioner Dr Alan Billings. Yes he takes responsibility for the force but he wasn't there 27 years ago. It looks as though he was suspended because he tried to defend his force during the inquest proceedings. I think our Dr Billings is coming up for re election and needs to be able to say to the electorate look how tough I am. This has nothing to do with proportionality.

And the fans yes like all football crowds some of their number were intoxicated. I know because I saw it and we were confiscating beer from vehicles all morning. A huge haul of trays of lager and beer cans which had been brought to drink before the match. This was nothing unusual. This was the culture at the time and the reason fans were penned in like sheep at all grounds. Their behaviour in the previous decade had necessitated separation because of continued violence. So to say the fans had no responsibility is also wrong. Perhaps on the day the fans did not contribute directly to the 96 deaths but as a group their general behaviour over previous years had led to the point of wire cages on terraces.

Yes, let the people responsible face the music. Yes let Chief Superintendent Duckenfield and his immediate team be called to account but please don't call South Yorkshire Police rotten to the core. It wasn't then and I don't believe it is now.

The finer points of South Yorkshire police today I couldn't comment on.

 

The rest (including the comments on supporters and the culture of hooliganism) is very fair IMHO.

[real]

The finer points of South Yorkshire police today I couldn't comment on.

 

The rest (including the comments on supporters and the culture of hooliganism) is very fair IMHO.

He waited until now to criticise the leadership. Why did he wait?

By not speaking up he failed to uphold justice, which was his core duty.

[whitey1980]

I would have thought the reasons for waiting to criticise are explained in his description of the forces leadership at the time.....

 

Past that who knows.

[opinions4u]

He waited until now to criticise the leadership. Why did he wait?

By not speaking up he failed to uphold justice, which was his core duty.

The whistle blower is usually seen as a crank and hounded out of a job.

 

Especially in organisations like SYP.

 

I would be interested to hear peanuts' experience of the cover up.

[jimsleftfoot]

will add this to the debate copied from facebook

I have considered carefully what I want to say here about Hillsborough. The media coverage over the past few days, comments in the House of Commons and the suspension of the South Yorkshire Chief Constable all persuade me to post my thoughts.

I was a Constable, Sergeant and Inspector in South Yorkshire Police and served 17yrs before leaving to run a family business. I was there on the pitch at Hillsborough when the tragedy occurred working as a PC in a public order serial which had been called into the ground when the shout went up for assistance.

I witnessed the lack of command. The almost complete radio silence from the control room at the ground and the ridiculous decision to line up our serial in front of the Notts fans to prevent a pitch invasion whilst people at the Leppings Lane end were in obvious trouble.

I broke ranks at that moment with several other officers and began helping the injured from the pitch because it was obvious that senior commanders were not reacting to the situation as they should have been.

There is no doubt in my mind that poor policing decisions led to the deaths that day and it comes as no surprise that those in charge tried to deflect the blame. The culture in the force at that time was demonstrated in person by the majority of the Chief Superintendents and senior Command team. I have never come across a more arrogant, pompous and unlikeable group of individuals. They had absolute power over their Divisions (Districts now) and were completely unaccountable. What they said went and they were completely but mistakenly self assured in their ability.

That it took so long to discover the depth of the cover up from the then Chief Constable Peter Wright to the Chief Superintendents and those under their direct command is no surprise to me as no one would have dared to speak out.

What does offend me however is the headline in todays edition of i which screams ROTTEN TO THE CORE. Well that's not true either. The huge majority of officers on duty that day did just that their duty. They helped where they could, used initiative when the chain of command failed and should be commended for their work.

The current Chief Constable David Compton has been suspended by the Police and Crime Commissioner Dr Alan Billings. Yes he takes responsibility for the force but he wasn't there 27 years ago. It looks as though he was suspended because he tried to defend his force during the inquest proceedings. I think our Dr Billings is coming up for re election and needs to be able to say to the electorate look how tough I am. This has nothing to do with proportionality.

And the fans yes like all football crowds some of their number were intoxicated. I know because I saw it and we were confiscating beer from vehicles all morning. A huge haul of trays of lager and beer cans which had been brought to drink before the match. This was nothing unusual. This was the culture at the time and the reason fans were penned in like sheep at all grounds. Their behaviour in the previous decade had necessitated separation because of continued violence. So to say the fans had no responsibility is also wrong. Perhaps on the day the fans did not contribute directly to the 96 deaths but as a group their general behaviour over previous years had led to the point of wire cages on terraces.

Yes, let the people responsible face the music. Yes let Chief Superintendent Duckenfield and his immediate team be called to account but please don't call South Yorkshire Police rotten to the core. It wasn't then and I don't believe it is now.

As I understand, the defence lawyers at the inquest repeated long discredited slurs against the fans and this is the primary reason why Compton was suspended.

 

As for levels of intoxication amongst fans, probably the most important thing to say is that it's quite acceptable today for people to drink and be drunk at many different events (up to certain levels) and for it not to cause major issues and so I can only think the point he is trying to make is the same 2+2=5 crap that we've already heard.

 

I quite agree that the culture within football didn't help leading up to Hillsborough, but there should have always been a greater duty of care in looking after the fans, the families and children attending football. Is it any surprise that with greater planning, health and safety etc. that a similar issue hasn't occurred since? Fan behaviour didn't lead to conditions at Hillsborough, the authorities chose that pathway.

Edited May 8, 2016 by jimsleftfoot

[piglinbland]

As I understand, the defence lawyers at the inquest repeated long discredited slurs against the fans and this is the primary reason why Compton was suspended.

 

As for levels of intoxication amongst fans, probably the most important thing to say is that it's quite acceptable today for people to drink and be drunk at many different events (up to certain levels) and for it not to cause major issues and so I can only think the point he is trying to make is the same 2+2=5 crap that we've already heard.

 

I quite agree that the culture within football didn't help leading up to Hillsborough, but there should have always been a greater duty of care in looking after the fans, the families and children attending football. Is it any surprise that with greater planning, health and safety etc. that a similar issue hasn't occurred since? Fan behaviour didn't lead to conditions at Hillsborough, the authorities chose that pathway.

 

This is true. Also worth noting that football was very much a scapegoat at the time. Wide-scale drunkenness and disorder did and does occur at other venues, such as rock concerts and motor sport but is much less reported in the media.

 

The police failed in their duty to the public that day and the inquest has ruled that drunkenness and disorder were no more prevalent in the events leading up to the disaster than in any crowd of 50,000 people. Thus, the fans are totally exonerated.

[opinions4u]

The Hillsborough programme on BBC2 now should be watched by anybody who ever thought the fans were to blame.

[GlossopLatic]

The Hillsborough programme on BBC2 now should be watched by anybody who ever thought the fans were to blame.

Indeed.

[Buckshawlatic]

The Hillsborough programme on BBC2 now should be watched by anybody who ever thought the fans were to blame.

And same goes for those that tar all police that day with the same brush...

[rosa]

The Hillsborough programme on BBC2 now should be watched by anybody who ever thought the fans were to blame.

That was excellent.

 

My, it's been a very long 27 years.

[opinions4u]

And same goes for those that tar all police that day with the same brush...

But most who have a problem with the policing at Hillsborough and the subsequent cover up know that the blame lies in the senior ranks.

 

What triggered your need to post that?

[opinions4u]

That was excellent.

My, it's been a very long 27 years.

I've gone all emotional.

[Buckshawlatic]

But most who have a problem with the policing at Hillsborough and the subsequent cover up know that the blame lies in the senior ranks.

 

What triggered your need to post that?

Purely that some people use the word "police" to sum up everyone rather than individuals - I have spoken to many who refuse to see that some police officers (those on the front line) did their best to help that awful day and what triggered to me to "post that" was the fact that that very well done documentary highlighted the decent officers and their actions. I despise the other aspects as much as anyone

[opinions4u]

Purely that some people use the word "police" to sum up everyone rather than individuals - I have spoken to many who refuse to see that some police officers (those on the front line) did their best to help that awful day and what triggered to me to "post that" was the fact that that very well done documentary highlighted the decent officers and their actions. I despise the other aspects as much as anyone

Cheers. It wasn't meant as an aggressive question, it's just an angle I'd not really considered. The collective term "police" in the context of Hillsborough has always meant senior officers to me. I can see why perhaps it doesn't to others.

[jimsleftfoot]

Purely that some people use the word "police" to sum up everyone rather than individuals - I have spoken to many who refuse to see that some police officers (those on the front line) did their best to help that awful day and what triggered to me to "post that" was the fact that that very well done documentary highlighted the decent officers and their actions. I despise the other aspects as much as anyone

Someone raised the same point with Guardian's David Conn last night and he responded that many of the rank and file officers were involved and they also gave evidence at the inquest against the fans. Not everyone should be tarred with the same brush and some individual officers did help the fans but it was not just SYP leadership who are to blame. As an organisation, it's fair to say the police were at fault. Edited May 9, 2016 by jimsleftfoot

[Diego_Sideburns]

From The Stands ‏@FromTStands 16h16 hours ago

West Brom have placed 96 red seats in the away section in respect to those who died at Hillsborough. Class.

 

[Dave_Og]

 

 

 

 

 

I think that's a bit odd to be honest. Why not for Bradford, Heysel, Burnden Park...?

[opinions4u]

I'm all for not forgetting. But that's bizarre.

Edited May 14, 2016 by opinions4u

[beag_teeets]

Its nice, they didn't have to, they could have done it for others but today they have done this. It is nice.

[Wozzer]

 

 

I think that's a bit odd to be honest. Why not for Bradford, Heysel, Burnden Park...?

Not sure any of those were legally considered unlawfully killed. You might have a strong case for Heysel though.

[Dave_Og]

Not sure any of those were legally considered unlawfully killed. You might have a strong case for Heysel though.

Not sure of the relevance but there were manslaughter convictions for Heysel

Edited May 14, 2016 by Dave_Og

[jsslatic]

I think it's just temporary for Liverpool game tomorrow. They will be left unoccupied and each have the name of one of those who died.

[Diego_Sideburns]

The Freedom of Liverpool is to be awarded posthumously to the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster and to Kenny and Marina Dalglish, the Rt Rev James Jones, who led the Independent Panel, and Professor Phil Scraton, who led the Panel's research team and published the book Hillsborough:The Truth in 1999.

[jsslatic]

The Freedom of Liverpool is to be awarded posthumously to the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster and to Kenny and Marina Dalglish, the Rt Rev James Jones, who led the Independent Panel, and Professor Phil Scraton, who led the Panel's research team and published the book Hillsborough:The Truth in 1999.

Scraton came across unbelievably well in the BBC documentary this week, which is tough viewing but a must watch on iPlayer if anybody missed it.