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34 minutes ago, yarddog73 said:

He wears his heart on his sleeve and although its a quality I personally like and admire its not one thats going to serve him well as a manager because generally they tend to have a more balanced neutral approach to things.

 

One real problem I can see currently is the size of the squad and the nationalities within it, hows he supposed to get any quality work done with the squad when it appears he will be having unknown players thrust on him left, right and centre? We're right in the middle of a relegation scrap and some unknown reserve player from Nantes is the answer? Take away all these foreign imports and we probably would have a squad he could work with, these new lads of AL's (and personally I include Placide in this) just ain't up to it and aint the players you want in a dogfight, ultimately bringing in more of the same ilk will lead to one thing and thats RELEGATION, for all SC's faults come January he found the right manager who brought in the right player but this time I fear we are well and truly fucked, really hope I'm wrong and RW can find the answer but personally I think the job he's got is being made near on impossible.

I'm not jumping to conclusions here but the tone of your post appears to lean toward Lemsagam's takeover not being the ideal situation, given the influence he may be having on the influx of players and the position the club currently finds itself in. I have to agree with you, these players might not be up for the fight and that could be detrimental to those around them. Of course, this is just pure speculation on my part and even though we keep saying this, the next few days could be quite turbulent. 

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4 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

Wellens clearly isn't having the foreign lads so you can only assume we will end up with a manager who will have them.

 

That's worrying, it depends if they are good enough and can adapt to this league, the track record of this so far isn't good, mind you it isn't with our own players either.

 

 

Edited by BP1960
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3 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

Wellens clearly isn't having the foreign lads so you can only assume we will end up with a manager who will have them.

Yeah which makes talking about your Graysons of this world very far fetched in my opinion. Our next manager will be a rookie (again) or a foreign head coach type , I feel. 

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6 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

I'm also wondering if the said influx of foreign players will have effect on team morale, we have seen already several not catching the team on a regular basis and one gone home. I hope cliques don't develop and make it even harder to manage.

I am with you on this, BP. 

 

5 minutes ago, deyres42 said:

Wellens clearly isn't having the foreign lads so you can only assume we will end up with a manager who will have them.

And I agree with you.
The unknown can be slightly worrying and when it comes to the club we support, there always seems to be a lot of unknowns.

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33 minutes ago, Wardie said:

I'm not jumping to conclusions here but the tone of your post appears to lean toward Lemsagam's takeover not being the ideal situation, given the influence he may be having on the influx of players and the position the club currently finds itself in. I have to agree with you, these players might not be up for the fight and that could be detrimental to those around them. Of course, this is just pure speculation on my part and even though we keep saying this, the next few days could be quite turbulent. 

Moiseley keeps making the point that we would be silly not to tap into AL's extensive network in the search for players which on face value is true but the lad we have apparently just signed from Nantes cannot be a player that RW would have any knowledge or indeed interest in, new chairman coming in - buying players and imposing them on the current manager only generally leads to one or two things.

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19 minutes ago, yarddog73 said:

Moiseley keeps making the point that we would be silly not to tap into AL's extensive network in the search for players which on face value is true but the lad we have apparently just signed from Nantes cannot be a player that RW would have any knowledge or indeed interest in, new chairman coming in - buying players and imposing them on the current manager only generally leads to one or two things.

Yes, and I think we all know just what one of those "things" would be. I assume Lemsagam and Wellens discuss these signings...does Wellens get swayed into believing the players are up to the job or is the club's new owner pulling rank? It's all a bit of a headache at the moment.

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For me, no. But changes have to be made. New defensive coach for starters. Another body in defence at least. If we can get to March without being cut-off, which means ugly wins and draws here and there then I think we'll be OK> My worry is the games in hand Dale and Bury have over us. If they start to click then we'll be ten points adrift in the space of a month and that'll be too much to claw back IMO.

 

This division is lethal when you get cut off. Every season we've stayed up we've been at worst a couple of wins from getting ourselves out of it. 

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If I bumped into Richie Wellens and we sat down for a cheeky beer ...

 

Me: Richie, when you took over as caretaker you got the team playing a fast one touch style that was a joy to watch and got the team climbing the table. Byrne was playing in the hole behind a front two, we played with width and pace and the whole team was working hard. Quite rightly you got the job full time.

So, apart from losing Doyle, why have you changed your approach?

Yesterday you started with one man up top and Byrne playing in a deep midfield role. You had Nepomuceno as left wing back where he was clearly wasted and Gardner playing high up the pitch when he has been in a poor run of form. 

 

Richie: well it’s like this...

 

Fill in the rest somebody...please.

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If too many new players come in they need time to gel and we don't have that time. On the new LB from Nantes,  unless he's been here for a couple of weeks then RW can't have made a decision about him. 

 

If RW were to be sacked he would need replacing immediately as Watford have done. We don't have a month to go through the rigmarole of interviews. Who would take over in the gap?

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Stick with Wellens

 

OK he got the starting line-up wrong, but corrected it, after which we improved a lot. Their keeper made two 'worldie' saves and Davies should've scored from Duckens Nazon's cross. We're back to a turnip patch of a pitch again, so like Shez had to, he's going to have to play more direct at home, which, to be fair to him he alluded to in his post-match interview. He's a young manager just starting out at a club where the recent upheaval of a takeover must have had an effect. I know people say it shouldn't, but the reality is, it does.

 

Richie Wellens was a top class player, very much like Shez, but I think he tries to get his players to see and do the things that he used to, but some of them aren't that good, that's why they're in this league. He mentioned about giving some players too much information in his post-match interview, which suggests to me that he's learning lessons. Whether or not AL will give him time, even if we're relegated or not, is in his hands. A new playing surface, a few players and patience is what is required, not the continuing merry-go-round of managers/players we have been doing.

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AL has spent the last 17 or so years scouting talented players to represent and has no doubt built a wide network of contacts.

 

Most managers would feel threatened that AL would be influencing recruitment.  Short-sighted by the manager not to take advantage of the situation.  Also of AL whose knowledge of EFL football would be limited and not to look at strengthening from the domestic market.

 

Question though is what financial scope is there.  One in one out or room to add further.

 

I'm certain between AL, Corney and Wellens they know what is needed to improve the team to maximise our chances of staying up.

 

Said last night that until Doyle is fit, Davies is our best bet on goals.  Play him and Nevons up front but play the midfield so we're delivering chances in and around the box.  Davies is a poacher so you need chances in the six yard box - Byrne behind the front two, width on the flanks.

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IMO they should not be thinking of sacking Wellens. 

When he first took over he got Latics playing some fantastic, entertaining football, something that we as fans have been starved of for years.

It wasn’t just down to the ‘new manager’ effect, they were playing a much better, more attacking brand of football. Byrne - and to a lesser extent Gardner - was pulling the strings in midfield and we had a very potent strike force up front with Doyle and Davies.

I think the main reason(s) for the drop in form and performance has been the illness to Doyle, coupled with Byrne and Bryan initially going back. For some reason it’s badly affected our fluency and we’ve struggled to get it back especially with only having one striker that actually scores goals now.

I think Pringle and Byrne are too similar and both want to do the same thing. Byrne in particular looked stifled in midfield against Plymouth. I would revert to Byrne and Gardner back in the middle again, Fane being the defensive midfielder.

Also I think Nepomuceno is wasted at left back. For a start I don’t think he can defend, and he’s much better in a more forward position.

The new lad up front looked promising alongside Davies. I couldn’t understand why he didn’t start. One striker up front in “the most important game of the season” didn’t make much sense to me.

People knock Davies but he’s the only striker likely to score with anything like any regularity. 

They criticise him for not holding the ball up well enough but it’s not easy when it’s hoofed up to him and there’s a big centre half clambering all over him.

When Holloway plays alongside him, Holloway is able to flick the ball on, but when Davies is on his own up front he’s got no one to flick the ball on to.

If Holloway plays up front on his own he will have exactly the same problem.

Playing 2 up front seems the obvious answer, the sooner it can be a Doyle/Davies partnership again the better.

COYB ⚽️⚽️

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45 minutes ago, Midsblue said:

AL has spent the last 17 or so years scouting talented players to represent and has no doubt built a wide network of contacts.

 

Most managers would feel threatened that AL would be influencing recruitment.  Short-sighted by the manager not to take advantage of the situation.  Also of AL whose knowledge of EFL football would be limited and not to look at strengthening from the domestic market.

 

Question though is what financial scope is there.  One in one out or room to add further.

 

I'm certain between AL, Corney and Wellens they know what is needed to improve the team to maximise our chances of staying up.

 

Said last night that until Doyle is fit, Davies is our best bet on goals.  Play him and Nevons up front but play the midfield so we're delivering chances in and around the box.  Davies is a poacher so you need chances in the six yard box - Byrne behind the front two, width on the flanks.

RW has already admitted to losing out on 3 or 4 targets because of the delay in the takeover. Had it been done by Jan. 1st. he may well have been able to get them in. There can't be many players available that would be of use to us, unless we offer big money to take them away from their current club.

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6 minutes ago, Gary1906 said:

IMO they should not be thinking of sacking Wellens. 

When he first took over he got Latics playing some fantastic, entertaining football, something that we as fans have been starved of for years.

It wasn’t just down to the ‘new manager’ effect, they were playing a much better, more attacking brand of football. Byrne - and to a lesser extent Gardner - was pulling the strings in midfield and we had a very potent strike force up front with Doyle and Davies.

I think the main reason(s) for the drop in form and performance has been the illness to Doyle, coupled with Byrne and Bryan initially going back. For some reason it’s badly affected our fluency and we’ve struggled to get it back especially with only having one striker that actually scores goals now.

I think Pringle and Byrne are too similar and both want to do the same thing. Byrne in particular looked stifled in midfield against Plymouth. I would revert to Byrne and Gardner back in the middle again, Fane being the defensive midfielder.

Also I think Nepomuceno is wasted at left back. For a start I don’t think he can defend, and he’s much better in a more forward position.

The new lad up front looked promising alongside Davies. I couldn’t understand why he didn’t start. One striker up front in “the most important game of the season” didn’t make much sense to me.

People knock Davies but he’s the only striker likely to score with anything like any regularity. 

They criticise him for not holding the ball up well enough but it’s not easy when it’s hoofed up to him and there’s a big centre half clambering all over him.

When Holloway plays alongside him, Holloway is able to flick the ball on, but when Davies is on his own up front he’s got no one to flick the ball on to.

If Holloway plays up front on his own he will have exactly the same problem.

Playing 2 up front seems the obvious answer, the sooner it can be a Doyle/Davies partnership again the better.

COYB ⚽️⚽️

 

This.

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7 minutes ago, frizzell54 said:

 

This.

 

15 minutes ago, Gary1906 said:

IMO they should not be thinking of sacking Wellens. 

When he first took over he got Latics playing some fantastic, entertaining football, something that we as fans have been starved of for years.

It wasn’t just down to the ‘new manager’ effect, they were playing a much better, more attacking brand of football. Byrne - and to a lesser extent Gardner - was pulling the strings in midfield and we had a very potent strike force up front with Doyle and Davies.

I think the main reason(s) for the drop in form and performance has been the illness to Doyle, coupled with Byrne and Bryan initially going back. For some reason it’s badly affected our fluency and we’ve struggled to get it back especially with only having one striker that actually scores goals now.

I think Pringle and Byrne are too similar and both want to do the same thing. Byrne in particular looked stifled in midfield against Plymouth. I would revert to Byrne and Gardner back in the middle again, Fane being the defensive midfielder.

Also I think Nepomuceno is wasted at left back. For a start I don’t think he can defend, and he’s much better in a more forward position.

The new lad up front looked promising alongside Davies. I couldn’t understand why he didn’t start. One striker up front in “the most important game of the season” didn’t make much sense to me.

People knock Davies but he’s the only striker likely to score with anything like any regularity. 

They criticise him for not holding the ball up well enough but it’s not easy when it’s hoofed up to him and there’s a big centre half clambering all over him.

When Holloway plays alongside him, Holloway is able to flick the ball on, but when Davies is on his own up front he’s got no one to flick the ball on to.

If Holloway plays up front on his own he will have exactly the same problem.

Playing 2 up front seems the obvious answer, the sooner it can be a Doyle/Davies partnership again the better.

COYB ⚽️⚽️

Some good points Gary, though we did go 5 without a win after drubbing Northampton before Byrne and Bryan went back. But clearly Doyle has been a massive loss.

 

RW is beginning to remind me of one of those rounds of golf where you're on for a good score. Instead of carrying on with an attacking game you start to get defensive and try to protect your score. From bitter experience, it's always a bad move,

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6 minutes ago, Worcester Owl said:

 

Some good points Gary, though we did go 5 without a win after drubbing Northampton before Byrne and Bryan went back. But clearly Doyle has been a massive loss.

 

RW is beginning to remind me of one of those rounds of golf where you're on for a good score. Instead of carrying on with an attacking game you start to get defensive and try to protect your score. From bitter experience, it's always a bad move,

Ha Ha I know what you mean, but I’m rarely on for a good round of golf.

i usually start off mediocre then fall away a bit. ⛳️?

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I genuinely think our luck has run out, we look tidy enough but very toothless. The rot set in against Rochdale for me. We struggled to break them down and only the brilliance of Doyle was the difference. Rochdale stifled us and closed us down, when teams do that we look pretty with our tippy happy passing but lack the final ball and any sort of penetration in behind. Wimbledon closed us down and defended for their lives - it was enough for a point. Apart from an awful Northampton side that stood off continually and had the 2010's version of Perry Suckling and Andy Gosney (Kids ask yer dads) in goal we have really struggled to create and lacked real fluency. People are mistaking bouts of possession for pressure. Keepers making save after save is pressure, playing 98% of the game in front of the opposition is not - its simply too easy for them.

 

Wellens needs to go direct, being a horrible team will be what saves us - fleetingly we did this at Shrewsbury and it brought about Davies' one on one and the equaliser through AAH. The pitch at BP is an embarrassment and Corney's legacy of under investment in the basic tools of the job,  any pass bobbles massively negating the effectiveness of our passing game.

 

Losing key players to injury has played its part as has losing the loanees, They've come back to a manager and team under pressure and with a great deal of off-field uncertainty. Bryan looks short of match sharpness and Byrne looks subdued. Gardner has been poor for weeks. BUT my biggest concern is the goalkeeper, the manager has alluded to this in his interviews on a few occasions 'any shot and it's a goal' and I agree. The guy is entertaining but we need a goalkeeper not a sweeper. January alone you can argue that he was at fault for the winners at Shrewsbury and Charlton, one of the Leicester goals, Peterborough's opener, the second at Shrewsbury in the cup and the second goal yesterday. He's costing us points, will Zeus be any better? Not so sure, but I'd be looking at a new goalkeeper not arsed if he's good with his feet I'd prefer a solid shot stopper.

 

I agreed with binning Clarke - what about offering him a player coach role in the summer? He's articulate the fans and players respect him - but Gerrard concerned me with his lack of communication yesterday, he's the senior pro in that team and he needs to step up for his manager and his manager needs to ram that point home. Nepo is not a fullback he doesn't defend, tackle or properly go for headers BUT he can cross a ball. Play players to their strengths. Dummigan seems to be a bit of boo boy, but often he is massively isolated at RB and left with 2 on 1 time and again going forward he needs to work on his final ball. BUT the issues from the summer have haunted us all year, poor keepers, No LB, no pace at CB, few goals from midfield and no variety up front. I don't buy Doyle being the be all and end all. BUT having movement up top is key, too often Davies and AAH  run the channels then stand with their finger up their arse. To only have one or two in the box yesterday time and again was criminal and back to the bad old days of Penney and Robinson. 

 

We have a big squad and a lot of players are underachieving. Wellens needs to take them out and have it out with them, he also needs to stop blaming individuals in his interviews - it's a fast track to losing the dressing room and that'd be a massive shame after the togetherness we showed through late Sept - Early Dec. Bringing a left back in this week and others will help the situation but signing players in groups and being brought into an already over bloated squad - many the owners choices that simply aren't good enough is plain daft. The players that come in need to improve us and Wellens must be given a free hand. What I don't want to see is a foreign coach parachuted into this sorry situation. If that happens we'll be down by Easter. However, I think Wellens needs an experienced no. 2 for now or a Director of Football to allow him to concentrate on coaching. AND I would consider Clarke into the management team in the summer. 

 

So for now I wouldn't sack Wellens - last week I was 100% behind him but after a mostly poor performance at Shrewsbury (i'm not having we played well when most of it was tippy tappy going nowhere) and the rubbish we served up yesterday through his crap team selection and obsession of square pegs in round holes I'm down to about 80%. We need 4 points from the next 9 minimum or he has to go sadly. I didn't want Shez to go but we HAVE to stay up. He has my backing - for now, ask me again at 9.45 on 13th February.

Edited by oafcprozac
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7 minutes ago, oafcprozac said:

I genuinely think our luck has run out, we look tidy enough but very toothless. The rot set in against Rochdale for me. We struggled to break them down and only the brilliance of Doyle was the difference. Rochdale stifled us and closed us down, when teams do that we look pretty with our tippy happy passing but lack the final ball and any sort of penetration in behind. Wimbledon closed us down and defended for their lives - it was enough for a point. Apart from an awful Northampton side that stood off continually and had the 2010's version of Perry Suckling and Andy Gosney (Kids ask yer dads) in goal we have really struggled to create and lacked real fluency. People are mistaking bouts of possession for pressure. Keepers making save after save is pressure, playing 98% of the game in front of the opposition is not - its simply too easy for them.

 

Wellens needs to go direct, being a horrible team will be what saves us - fleetingly we did this at Shrewsbury and it brought about Davies' one on one and the equaliser through AAH. The pitch at BP is an embarrassment and Corney's legacy of under investment in the basic tools of the job,  any pass bobbles massively negating the effectiveness of our passing game.

 

Losing key players to injury has played its part as has losing the loanees, They've come back to a manager and team under pressure and with a great deal of off-field uncertainty. Bryan looks short of match sharpness and Byrne looks subdued. Gardner has been poor for weeks. BUT my biggest concern is the goalkeeper, the manager has alluded to this in his interviews on a few occasions 'any shot and it's a goal' and I agree. The guy is entertaining but we need a goalkeeper not a sweeper. January alone you can argue that he was at fault for the winners at Shrewsbury and Charlton, one of the Leicester goals, Peterborough's opener, the second at Shrewsbury in the cup and the second goal yesterday. He's costing us points, will Zeus be any better? Not so sure, but I'd be looking at a new goalkeeper not arsed if he's good with his feet I'd prefer a solid shot stopper.

 

I agreed with binning Clarke - what about offering him a player coach role in the summer? He's articulate the fans and players respect him - but Gerrard concerned me with his lack of communication yesterday, he's the senior pro in that team and he needs to step up for his manager and his manager needs to ram that point home. Nepo is not a fullback he doesn't defend, tackle or properly go for headers BUT he can cross a ball. Play players to their strengths. Dummigan seems to be a bit of boo boy, but often he is massively isolated at RB and left with 2 on 1 time and again going forward he needs to work on his final ball. BUT the issues from the summer have haunted us all year, poor keepers, No LB, no pace at CB, few goals from midfield and no variety up front. I don't buy Doyle being the be all and end all. BUT having movement up top is key, too often Davies and Doyle run the channels then stand with their finger up their arse. To only have one or two in the box yesterday time and again was criminal and back to the bad old days of Penney and Robinson. 

 

We have a big squad and a lot of players are underachieving. Wellens needs to take them out and have it out with them, he also needs to stop blaming individuals in his interviews - it's a fast track to losing the dressing room and that'd be a massive shame after the togetherness we showed through late Sept - Early Dec. Bringing a left back in this week and others will help the situation but signing players in groups and being brought into an already over bloated squad - many the owners choices that simply aren't good enough is plain daft. The players that come in need to improve us and Wellens must be given a free hand. What I don't want to see is a foreign coach parachuted into this sorry situation. If that happens we'll be down by Easter. However, I think Wellens needs an experienced no. 2 for now or a Director of Football to allow him to concentrate on coaching. AND I would consider Clarke into the management team in the summer. 

 

So for now I wouldn't sack Wellens - last week I was 100% behind him but after a mostly poor performance at Shrewsbury (i'm not having we played well when most of it was tippy tappy going nowhere) and the rubbish we served up yesterday through his crap team selection and obsession of square pegs in round holes I'm down to about 80%. We need 4 points from the next 9 minimum or he has to go sadly. I didn't want Shez to go but we HAVE to stay up. He has my backing - for now, ask me again at 9.45 on 13th February.

 

Spot on.

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Seems more and more like a strange decision giving RW a long term contract given where we were in the takeover process. Deal to the end of the season, fine, but 2 year deal?!? Particularly as caretaker managers often do quite well then get found out long term.

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