lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 21 minutes ago, leeslover said: It won't matter if Oldham Council are given powers to meet sure they're doing everything right, surely? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 33 minutes ago, Dave_Og said: It's currently within the power of the clubs to tighten things up. It isn't in the power of the EFL because the EFL is the clubs. Self regulation rarely works well IMO..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 hour ago, lookersstandandy said: ....it comes hand in hand with heavier regulation. Lower league clubs have to be run as community assets. With more money comes rules that you cannot do what Mr. Day and Mr. Dale have done.... to prevent Bury from happening again. 11 minutes ago, lookersstandandy said: ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, lookersstandandy said: Self regulation rarely works well IMO..... True. But neither does over regulation. And as for whoever it was further up that suggested nationalisation. Words fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Just now, Dave_Og said: True. But neither does over regulation..... Agreed.... but now is the time to find the right balance..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 7 minutes ago, leeslover said: ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, lookersstandandy said: ? If not the Council, then Nigel Adam's is Minister for Sport. To give credit where it's due, it was funny seeing him hit a 9 year old kid out of the park at the cricket recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 9 minutes ago, leeslover said: If not the Council, then Nigel Adam's is Minister for Sport. To give credit where it's due, it was funny seeing him hit a 9 year old kid out of the park at the cricket recently. OK, I see. I'd rather there wasn't heavy handed political intervention, but if pressure & the threat of legislation from national/local government, results in a fit for purpose regulator, then I'm all for it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I think the Banks are a good example. Under regulation was a disaster, similarly as it is now. I do agree that over regulation is also ineffective. So a balance. Effective leadership at the EFL would guide clubs to better regulation, and it is a major consequence of extremely poor leadership under Shaun Harvey that the clubs are collectively feeling they are struggling to keep their heads above water. A case in point is the change in rules by Harvey regarding the sale of assets under FFP. Previously assets were disallowed, but he left a gaping hole to exploit by including asset sales. Derby, Wednesday & Villa have all taken advantage but are clubs better off? And as with the Bank of England etc, regulation that is independent would seem to benefit all concerned in the long run. I defer to a number of you on here with regard to financial management, but is there not a lot that can be learned from the regulation of Banks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 24 minutes ago, lookersstandandy said: Agreed.... but now is the time to find the right balance..... Which really is the key. I doubt a few rules put in place to make sure clubs tighten their balance sheets will have an adverse effect on them wanting people to buy football clubs if anything it will make them more sell able. People buy football clubs in most cases for abit of fame. Ken Bates often said when in charge at Stamford Bridge it made him feel like a Roman Emperor looking down over a modern Colosseum. For these people its less about making money its more about satisfying an ego/publicity. Aslong as that regulation isn't too heavy, just enough to stop the likes of Dale and Anderson at Bolton playing a game of brinkmanship with the EFL or a Stewart Day borrowing silly money. You can do that without preventing someone wanting to come in and decide I'm buying xyz lower league club and taking them to the premier league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, GlossopLatic said: Which really is the key. I doubt a few rules put in place to make sure clubs tighten their balance sheets will have an adverse effect on them wanting people to buy football clubs if anything it will make them more sell able. People buy football clubs in most cases for abit of fame. Ken Bates often said when in charge at Stamford Bridge it made him feel like a Roman Emperor looking down over a modern Colosseum. For these people its less about making money its more about satisfying an ego/publicity. Aslong as that regulation isn't too heavy, just enough to stop the likes of Dale and Anderson at Bolton playing a game of brinkmanship with the EFL or a Stewart Day borrowing silly money. You can do that without preventing someone wanting to come in and decide I'm buying xyz lower league club and taking them to the premier league. Absolutely, but I'd add in a little more to prevent hiving off grounds eg us, from ownership conflicts with family members eg us, and from best practice with regard to employment law -case in point us. A proper appeals process for example, rather than lawyers for HR issues for staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, singe said: Absolutely, but I'd add in a little more to prevent hiving off grounds eg us, from ownership conflicts with family members eg us, and from best practice with regard to employment law -case in point us. A proper appeals process for example, rather than lawyers for HR issues for staff. A regulatory agency to make sure clubs follow the law? Are footballers deserving/in need of a higher level of working rights than someone working in a shop or an office? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, leeslover said: A regulatory agency to make sure clubs follow the law? Are footballers deserving/in need of a higher level of working rights than someone working in a shop or an office? I think that already is in place through their agents. I am referring to clubs not using lawyers to administer employment issues with office staff. In general though, I think I understand that to be your point, Regulatory Agencies exist in many fields and football clubs cannot be compared to an office or shop in much the same way a Bank, airport, water utility, nuclear power station, medical facilities, advertising standards, pensions providers are not either. Sensible, practical, fair, potent regulation is not an anathema to the free market economy. The perils of idealogical dogma of zero control are all to apparent over the Pond, it is easy to do huge or even fatal damage to communities and community assets and still stay within the law. EDIT: I am advocating neither free for all un regulated league nor totalarian control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, singe said: I think that already is in place through their agents. I am referring to clubs not using lawyers to administer employment issues with office staff. In general though, I think I understand that to be your point, Regulatory Agencies exist in many fields and football clubs cannot be compared to an office or shop in much the same way a Bank, airport, water utility, nuclear power station, medical facilities, advertising standards, pensions providers are not either. Sensible, practical, fair, potent regulation is not an anathema to the free market economy. The perils of idealogical dogma of zero control are all to apparent over the Pond, it is easy to do huge or even fatal damage to communities and community assets and still stay within the law. EDIT: I am advocating neither free for all un regulated league nor totalarian control. There are standards in advertising? That aside, the others are all far more important than football. Whether their regulations have made things better or worse in a n open question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, leeslover said: There are standards in advertising? https://www.asa.org.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 28 minutes ago, leeslover said: There are standards in advertising? That aside, the others are all far more important than football. Whether their regulations have made things better or worse in a n open question everything is open to question, but If you want a list of regulatory authorities that are questionably as important as football, then that depends on your point of view and circumstances or idealogical stance. Nonetheless the British Board of Film Classification seems the most obvious one, or maybe the Direct Marketing Association, or Gambling Commision, or Security Industry Regulation, Press Regulation, Planning Inspectorate (though they are about as easily manipulated as the FL) all spring to mind. The regulator should not have a light touch, but it needn't be heavy, nor am I advocating it, just robust. And I would not be advocating it had the FL not performed so abjectly. Which bits they control can be debated, but the ownership and takeover of clubs seems a great places to start. The current self regulation is hardly a beacon of best practice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticMark Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 On another note what happens to Bury's remaining players, as Bury FC still exist but they don't have a league to play in - and the transfer deadline is next Monday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Mmmm. There are some delicious statist tears in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witty Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49526433 Still trying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Zorrro said: Mmmm. There are some delicious statist tears in this thread. The only tears for stats are Dom McHales assists & total appearances in the last 5 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I presume some fans would rather not support or recognise football as an Asset of Community Value because that is disrupting the free market, I mean why not just sell it to the highest bidder ASAP? Or does Community actually mean something in football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfatjoe1 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Imagine all those years ago when those young men first came across football and decided to form their own clubs. They did so because they loved the game. Working class lads. Then their friends, workmates, neighbours etc went along to watch and also fell in love with the game. Non of them had a pot to piss in, but they all contributed to running costs. They all loved the game. Then local businessmen saw opportunities to exploit the situation and conned their way in to the clubs by putting a few quid into the pot. It massaged their ego by placing them on a local pedestal. Enhanced their local status and influence. They started to control the space owned by working men and they and their successors have been doing the same ever since. Fast forward to the 1960s, and the end of the maximum wage, the rise of television and commercialisation starts to take football further away from its soul. However, it was the PL and Sky that ripped it up, emphasising that football was an industry. Isn't it wonderful when we have transfer deadline day and we all swoon at the amounts being spent by a few PL clubs? Now we have a situation where the only people who own football clubs do so because they can waste millions to boost their own ego, or they own a club because they have an agenda. That can be many things, but it isn't about losing money. It might be the land or other assets they can strip, or selling the debt at a personal profit or they might see the club as a way of laundering shit lower league players from Europe in the hope of turning a profit at some point. These people don't think or feel as a fan. They don't give a shit. Stop thinking that more of the same is a solution. Suggesting nationalisation is a deliberate way of rattling cages and pointing out that the business driven ethos embraced by so many is actually the problem. What we need to do is think of a different model, especially now we'll have the fallout following the disgraceful demise of Bury. Supporters organisations need to influence the agenda. Alternatives need to be considered (state, state-local government, charitable trusts, co-operatives etc). Why not? Of course, some idiots who can't see that there is world beyond the blinding culture of unfettered capitalism and the balance sheets might think differently, but we're in the shit because their model doesn't work. We might as well privatise all art galleries. Charge for entry. Most won't cover their costs. So the art will have to sold at a huge profit. Then the gallery can be turned into a tacky bistro for knob heads who don't realise they're living in a world that is driven by all things related to the economic system. I think football is art, ballet, opera and theatre rolled into one. It might not suit the auditors, accountants, middle managers and other apologists for business with no controls or scruples of this world, but it's time to wake up and start thinking about a radical alternative for football. This model isn't working and is only going to end with 50+ clubs going to the wall. Then there'll be no need to check about what's been sent to Companies House anymore. The books can be buried along with the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_Og Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Sorry but nationalising football...?? Where would you stop? Tier 4, tier 8, Sunday league? There is no such thing as unfettered capitalism. I'm all for a debate but calling people idiots for things they never said isn't a great starting point. The issue is that if you had a blank sheet of paper you wouldn't design what we have now. But we don;t have one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookersstandandy Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I don''t agree with nationalisation.... but I do enjoy the sentiment in your post @bigfatjoe1. IMO, if we carry on the path we are with no intervention, then we'll end up with only 2 professional divisions. I don't think that will be to the benefit of English football. I am aware others would [if this happens] ascribe it to natural progression. Even if I'm wrong, the gulf between Premier League and L1/L2 will continue to widen such that there will little/no chance of a club naturally moving their way up the divisions, without enormous capital injection. A typical Div 1 club in 1991 would've had 4/5 teams with squads of 20 apiece, say. 1st team, reserves, A and B teams, possibly one more. A total of 100 footballers. Today, how many does each Premier League club have registered to them? 400? 500? 1st team, reserves, EDS, U23, U21, U20, U19, U18, U17, U16.....? Many players in the 5th or 6th choice 11 of said Premier League club, having played 0 professional 1st team games earning more than the top paid professional at a L1 or L2 club. Many won't go onto have a successful professional career at all. IMO, not necessarily because they couldn't have... just that after discardment from the mollycoddled, sanitised & non-life preparatory environments they've been in, the real world comes as an enormous shock. All this peculiarity is afforded by the vast amounts of money retained at the top level, such is their desire to seek the next big star and not have to pay through the nose for it from elsewhere. Yes, it might help Citeh seek that marginal gain they require to win the Champions League.... but at what cost to everyone else? If this is what people want, then football won't be for me in the future.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAFC1984 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 6 hours ago, Witty said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49526433 Still trying I felt sorry for them, they’re getting on my tits now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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