oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) Hi All So the owners now have the consent they need to progress with the building work but many questions are still to be answered. The key questions for me are to do with exactly how is the money going to go back into the club ? Gym - will be outsourced and rent will be paid...does this rent go directly back to the club to cover costs or is a cut taken by the 3As/investors...if so...how much of a cut? Hotel - will be outsourced and rent will be paid...does this rent go directly back to the club to cover costs or is a cut taken by the 3As/investors...if so...how much of a cut? Conference Facilities - will be run by the club or third party contractors....how is the money put back into the club ? So far we have worked off trust...trusting the 3As will do this but hard questions have not been asked. Some people are of the opinon all this money will be taken as profit / to pay back investors and not into the club. The club could do with being transparent as possible about it all. I don’t want people to take this post the wrong way. I believe the 3As are to be trusted BUT I still want to know how this whole thing is going to work. Nothing of real substance has been said about this by the 3As. Edited December 13, 2007 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaddy the owl Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The way i understood the hotel bit of it all was that there were a few hotel chains who were bidding to get the land. Whichever one wins will pay the club to let them build a hotel on the ground, they will then get to run the hotel themselves, and we get a large lump sum of money towards the development of the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 These are all fair questions, as you say it's not about doubting TTA or thinking they are conning us, but it would be good to know how the whole ownership and structure of the new set-up will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 The way i understood the hotel bit of it all was that there were a few hotel chains who were bidding to get the land. Whichever one wins will pay the club to let them build a hotel on the ground, they will then get to run the hotel themselves, and we get a large lump sum of money towards the development of the ground. dam....thats dissapointing!!!! No year after year revenue!!! Renting sounds a better idea! Also we would need there permission to develop further!!! So that leaves just the offices, gym and conference facilities ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 dam....thats dissapointing!!!! No year after year revenue!!! Renting sounds a better idea! Also we would need there permission to develop further!!! So that leaves just the offices, gym and conference facilities ? We're a football club, not a hotel chain or a conferencing firm. One way or another they will all be at the least an arms length away from OAFC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 These are all fair questions, as you say it's not about doubting TTA or thinking they are conning us, but it would be good to know how the whole ownership and structure of the new set-up will work. I think the whole point of this development is giving the club the facilities within the stadium itself to make it self-sufficient. The conference, office space, banqueting and hospitality will do this to a certain extent as will proper dedicated concourses with bars and proper catering outlets giving the club a previously unprecedented opportnity to maximise both matchday and year round 24/7 revenue. Within the new stand there will be more office space for the club wich will in turn allow the club to employ its own in house marketing department rather than the contracting out we have seen in the past and the one man and his dog approach. A lot willbe depending on the 'feel-good' factor of a new ground but this will only work for a season or so, the football side will have to be successful for all this to work. In short I expect the facilities directly linked to the club to be the club's income, anything else is unlikely to be our concern, thus Brass Bank Holding Company, seemingly being kept separate from OAFC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 We're a football club, not a hotel chain or a conferencing firm. One way or another they will all be at the least an arms length away from OAFC. I wasnt talking about runnning the hotel just building it!!! and then renting it... Which is how I belive the one at the Reebook is handled.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostofcecere Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 dam....thats dissapointing!!!! No year after year revenue!!! Renting sounds a better idea! Also we would need there permission to develop further!!! So that leaves just the offices, gym and conference facilities ? Hmmmm, again I may be wrong but I thought one of the objects of developing BP was to generate income outside of the football club. If we 'sell' all the space that means we will get no regular income at all! Also in the past when facing financial difficulty we have managed to get loans secured on the land. If we sell it all then we will no longer be able to do this. And we will not be able to sell the ground as there will be a hotel/offices built into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Hmmmm, again I may be wrong but I thought one of the objects of developing BP was to generate income outside of the football club. If we 'sell' all the space that means we will get no regular income at all! Also in the past when facing financial difficulty we have managed to get loans secured on the land. If we sell it all then we will no longer be able to do this. And we will not be able to sell the ground as there will be a hotel/offices built into it. I sersiouly doubt the plan is to sell the land and let a hotel develop there own hotel. I think it will be built as part of the ground redevelopment by us, with input from a hotel chain as to the spec inside and then we will rent it to them. That makes sense to me. Selling the land does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I sersiouly doubt the plan is to sell the land and let a hotel develop there own hotel. I think it will be built as part of the ground redevelopment by us, with input from a hotel chain as to the spec inside and then we will rent it to them. That makes sense to me. Selling the land does not. I always assumed the conferencing would be linked to the hotel, they go hand in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) I always assumed the conferencing would be linked to the hotel, they go hand in hand. At the reebook they are seperate. And the hotel is rented and is owned by Bolton. The whole idea of this development was to create weekly revenue. Not to sell of all our land for money. A quick couple of million in the bank is no good long term. Also at Wigan the conferencing is done by the club / facilities management company... Edited December 13, 2007 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Well what all this goes to show is that we actually have little idea about the details of this masterplan. Not doubt more information will be made avilable.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I would guess the hotel will be outsourced to someone like holiday inn or travel lodge, with us taking a percentage of their takings or a fixed sum etc. That way we can leave the running of the hotel to those who know how to do that best and there is no way we can make a loss on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laticsrblue Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 I always assumed the conferencing would be linked to the hotel, they go hand in hand. Hand in hand but in different buildings. TTA say they are doing all this development to bring in year round money. A bit more income from exec boxes and few more pies and pint sold on matchday won't do that. The CLUB needs a steady income from all of the new facilities: offices, hotel, banqueting, conference centre, health club, shops, Main stand bars (open every day) etc TTA hold most of the shares in the club so they will take a dividend payment, once their are profits. Mind you, after spending most of the income on new players there wont be any profit, but at least TTA wont be forking out £x,000 a week to keep the club going. Or doesn't a Ltd Cmpany work like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Working for the Uni of Manchester, I get involved in some of the many property deals/issues that happen here. If TTA are saying that they are trying to bring in long term income, I would think that they would be looking to lease the building that houses the hotel. An initial amount would be paid up front for the lease and then we would receive rent on top of that. The gym could either be leased as a building again, or we could simply outsource the running of it to another company. The conference centre is relatively simple to operate; all they would need to do is hire the right staff. As for the offices, I would definitely expect them to be leased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The gym ... or we could simply outsource the running of it to another company. This is what I'd expect to happen here - as it then remains the property of OAFC... meaning the players and staff could use it as/when required! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) The level of speculation here tends to justify OAFC0000's initial questions. And I fully agree - this is about a degree of transparency to show the doubters and cynics how the club stands to benefit from the whole set up, not at all about us questioning the motives of TTA. I've made a few assumptions of my own which may or may not be accurate. In terms of the development, I see this as dividing into two parts - The development of club and commercial facilities (stands, hospitality, offices, conferencing, hotel, gym etc); The residential development. My assumption on the entire commercial/ground development is that the club's development partner will build it, the club will own it all, and the club will then lease the hotel, gym, office and/or conferencing facilities to commercial partners who will pay rent. Best guess is that, for example, Holiday Inn will pay an opening lease and then a flat rate rent for the hotel and will take their own profit (can't see profit share being an attractive deal for the commercial partners). My assumption on the residential development has been that again our development partner will build it and sell the properties, with that income coming to the club/TTA. However, it MAY be that we agree what will be built with a residential developer and then simply sell them the land and let them build & sell the properties and take the profit. All depends what works best financially - we get less back just selling the land, but we don't have the outlay of building the homes. In terms of finance and income, again I see two specific parts - initial income to finance the development ongoing income streams to finance the running of the football club My basic assumptions here are that the first part - paying for the development - comes from selling the residential properties/land and upfront lease agreements on the commercial element, and that the second part - ongoing income for the club - comes from rent from the commercial elements plus the extra hospitality, banqueting, bars etc. When this is all in place, it means the club itself will just be directly involved in running the parts it understands and taking rental income from the rest. Edited December 13, 2007 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 On the OS Hardy talks about work on the new stand. He also talks about starting negotiations with housing developers on selling the land for the residential developments. Basically land with planning permission granted on it, even outline, is worth a fair bit of moolah and it means we dont have to wait for the sale of the actually properties to get the money in to pay for the development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 That's what I was thinking Jim. It was Alan's interview that prompted that, but didn't remember his exact words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 The level of speculation here tends to justify OAFC0000's initial questions. And I fully agree - this is about a degree of transparency to show the doubters and cynics how the club stands to benefit from the whole set up, not at all about us questioning the motives of TTA. I've made a few assumptions of my own which may or may not be accurate. In terms of the development, I see this as dividing into two parts - The development of club and commercial facilities (stands, hospitality, offices, conferencing, hotel, gym etc); The residential development. My assumption on the entire commercial/ground development is that the club's development partner will build it, the club will own it all, and the club will then lease the hotel, gym, office and/or conferencing facilities to commercial partners who will pay rent. Best guess is that, for example, Holiday Inn will pay an opening lease and then a flat rate rent for the hotel and will take their own profit (can't see profit share being an attractive deal for the commercial partners). My assumption on the residential development has been that again our development partner will build it and sell the properties, with that income coming to the club/TTA. However, it MAY be that we agree what will be built with a residential developer and then simply sell them the land and let them build & sell the properties and take the profit. All depends what works best financially - we get less back just selling the land, but we don't have the outlay of building the homes. In terms of finance and income, again I see two specific parts - initial income to finance the development ongoing income streams to finance the running of the football club My basic assumptions here are that the first part - paying for the development - comes from selling the residential properties/land and upfront lease agreements on the commercial element, and that the second part - ongoing income for the club - comes from rent from the commercial elements plus the extra hospitality, banqueting, bars etc. When this is all in place, it means the club itself will just be directly involved in running the parts it understands and taking rental income from the rest. Fantastic post and I am totaly agreement with it. This is what my assumptions where! Really could do with the club laying it all down for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 The level of speculation here tends to justify OAFC0000's initial questions. And I fully agree - this is about a degree of transparency to show the doubters and cynics how the club stands to benefit from the whole set up, not at all about us questioning the motives of TTA. I've made a few assumptions of my own which may or may not be accurate. In terms of the development, I see this as dividing into two parts - The development of club and commercial facilities (stands, hospitality, offices, conferencing, hotel, gym etc); The residential development. My assumption on the entire commercial/ground development is that the club's development partner will build it, the club will own it all, and the club will then lease the hotel, gym, office and/or conferencing facilities to commercial partners who will pay rent. Best guess is that, for example, Holiday Inn will pay an opening lease and then a flat rate rent for the hotel and will take their own profit (can't see profit share being an attractive deal for the commercial partners). My assumption on the residential development has been that again our development partner will build it and sell the properties, with that income coming to the club/TTA. However, it MAY be that we agree what will be built with a residential developer and then simply sell them the land and let them build & sell the properties and take the profit. All depends what works best financially - we get less back just selling the land, but we don't have the outlay of building the homes. In terms of finance and income, again I see two specific parts - initial income to finance the development ongoing income streams to finance the running of the football club My basic assumptions here are that the first part - paying for the development - comes from selling the residential properties/land and upfront lease agreements on the commercial element, and that the second part - ongoing income for the club - comes from rent from the commercial elements plus the extra hospitality, banqueting, bars etc. When this is all in place, it means the club itself will just be directly involved in running the parts it understands and taking rental income from the rest. Yeah good post. I agree with what your saying and clearly put down. Hopefully will help answer many peoples questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Yeah good post. I agree with what your saying and clearly put down. Hopefully will help answer many peoples questions. Well to be fair...they wont answer anyones questions...they are all assumptions...but I think its assumptions most people have made. I now want the 3As to come and say it all from the horses mouth because we dont really know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) Well to be fair...they wont answer anyones questions...they are all assumptions...but I think its assumptions most people have made. I now want the 3As to come and say it all from the horses mouth because we dont really know. I think some of it has been said by TTA, Hardy e.t.c. its just picking out the info. Yes there are also a lot of assumptions as well but I think it can help to explain where we think we are at least. My employer has leisure facilities, hotels, conference facilities and office space that it seeks to commercially exploit in the best manner with the aim of long term sustainability. It has also recently disposed of some of its older buldings and land to fund the development of a large scale capital programme. Reading between the lines I would be very surprised if TTA’s ideas are different to that of Garcon’s. Edited December 13, 2007 by jimsleftfoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 I think some of it has been said by TTA, Hardy e.t.c. its just picking out the info. Yes there are also a lot of assumptions as well but I think it can help to explain where we think we are at least. My employer has leisure facilities, hotels, conference facilities and office space that it seeks to commercially exploit in the best manner with the aim of long term sustainability. It has also recently disposed of some of its older buldings and land to fund the development of a large scale capital programme. Reading between the lines I would be very surprised if TTA’s ideas are different to that of Garcon’s. I would be surprised as well...but now is the time to see there hand.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyterryb Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 (edited) Wouldn't it be ironic if the three A's were to sell for short term gain rather than invest for the future of the club. After all the support they have received from the fans of the club. It has always been a slight niggle at the back of my mind that we didn't really KNOW what the plans of the owners were actually. I don't for one minute think they will disappear into the sunset with their bags of cash tied to their saddles but the socialist in me is always suspicious of Capitalists, particularly Property Developers........... Just hope I have to eat my words in two years time when our club is on a sound financial footing with a healthy future. This is what we mean when we say Keep the Faith I suppose... Edited December 13, 2007 by happyterryb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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