Trotman Going - We Really Are A Joke!

[Corporal_Jones]

I know. But why do you assume that those coming in will be drab journeymen when besides John Thompson (and possibly one or two more) that hasn't been the case recently?

 

Do you honestly see the players that I listed above (ie the nucleus of this Season's team) as drab journeymen? I agree they haven't performed as a team every week but at the time, you must have been excited by some of the signings/ emergence from the reserves?

 

 

 

On paper some of the signings were exciting, yes-but, in general, no better than those we let go. I'd prefer a settled side because we clearly can't achieve anything with mass disruption every single close season.

 

As for the players emerging from within the club, while some appear at first sight to be good prospects, it is notable how few any longer go on to great things. Those with most potential are snapped up by bigger clubs.

[Guest sheridans_world]

Historically we have been a selling club.....hopefully with the new stadium this can change.....

 

Yea i agree, historically. The old 'we need to sell one player a season' thing.

 

But since TTA came in, we have sold no-one of any significance.

[Guest oa_exile]

Said we're trying to get rid of Gregan as he's on a massive 8k a week.

 

KK's offer would have made him the highest paid player at the Club , £3.5K a week ? , so Gregan's £8K a week has no foundation.

[oafc0000]

8k a week ????

[Inspiral_Carpet]

On paper some of the signings were exciting, yes-but, in general, no better than those we let go. I'd prefer a settled side because we clearly can't achieve anything with mass disruption every single close season.

 

As for the players emerging from within the club, while some appear at first sight to be good prospects, it is notable how few any longer go on to great things. Those with most potential are snapped up by bigger clubs.

 

Right so we are getting somewhere. We haven't been signing drab journeymen but you think we will because.............. Well you can't really back that one up can you.

 

And while we haven't sold anyone, we are still apparently a selling Club and of course we ain't doomed at all. No really we aren't.

 

And as lomg as we don't keep our better players that is where we will stay. Either that or be relegated yet again.

 

Exactly where are the players who are going to form this promotion winning side in 3-4 seasons (what joy!) going to come from if we are forever to be 'a selling club'?

 

So your argument is now round to thinking we need a settled Team something on which we agree. The down-side though is by getting a talented and settled squad together, we will attract envious glances from the bigger boys and of course there are player's ambitions (plus Bosman) as well.

 

That's life I'm afraid.

[singe]

8k a week?

 

Half that maximum.

 

How on earth would a Youth team player know what a senior pro was on?

How do any of us know.

[singe]

Craig Davies; a maverick

Neal Eardley; overrated

Neil Kilkenny; on loan - gone

Michael Ricketts; not wanted

Ryan Bertrand; on loan -gone

Sean Gregan; Injured, unlikely to be seen again

Andy Liddell; ditto

Mark Crossley; probably his last season.

You may have an opinion on their abilities and of course I know that some are no longer here but they are part of this Season's team and "drab journeymen" they aint.

 

If you want to read my post properly, my point was directed to Corporal Jones who frequently comes out with such ludicrous statements to justify his "we're doomed" outbursts (would Frazer have been a better Username perhaps? ) but fails to back up his arguments.

 

And not one of those listed was described as such when the arrived. It is only with the benefit of hindsight.

[Lags]

IC, I can see why you persue Corp like a dog chasing a bone over this question who have we sold? well lets have a look at the besy players we've had at the club over the past twelve months and are they still here? and had we had the chance to sell them would we have done?. The Porter arguement could be stated that the club receieved a GOOD offer and we didn't sell, by the same token the club asked reassurances from both Porter and his agent if they intended fleecing the club at this point in which case they would have, and rightly so. However with the reassurance in place it meant we could have sold Porter had we needed to. The next one would be Wellens, again we didn't sell him cos we couldn't. Likewise Kilkenny. Yet the fact remains, sure we haven't sold these players but the ain't here!!

[OminousPoultry]

IC, I can see why you persue Corp like a dog chasing a bone over this question who have we sold? well lets have a look at the besy players we've had at the club over the past twelve months and are they still here? and had we had the chance to sell them would we have done?. The Porter arguement could be stated that the club receieved a GOOD offer and we didn't sell, by the same token the club asked reassurances from both Porter and his agent if they intended fleecing the club at this point in which case they would have, and rightly so. However with the reassurance in place it meant we could have sold Porter had we needed to. The next one would be Wellens, again we didn't sell him cos we couldn't. Likewise Kilkenny. Yet the fact remains, sure we haven't sold these players but the ain't here!!

 

I think the "selling club" term was mine on page 1 - and IC rightly jibbed at it - if I rephrase it as " a club who'll sell if the price is high enough, and a club that can't afford the wages of the better players it attracts on loan or wants to buy" - does it make it more acceptable?

 

BTW - the argument is pointless because we have sold players. Let's start again - I know we gotta sell players, but not at knock down prices. That is truly going against TTA's past policy

[Harry Dowds Green Shirt]

This topic started off with the yet unconfirmed rumour started off by a jounalist in Plymouth that his/her local club was closing in on Trotman. No quotes, no innuendoes, nothing substantive.

 

The thread has degenerated in my opinion into a no win debate. We all have our opinions and most are unlikely to change theirs particularly whilst we are all depressed about results and lack of goals, Saturday's in particular, and generally since the win at Everton.

 

Over the years whilst as a club we have been in the doldrums this is a recurring theme, our crowds have gone up and down, reflecting our various successes and failures and stagnations. I pose this question. Did staying in the old second division, now Championship, for an unbroken period of 16 years class as a success? If it did, why did our crowds drop as low as 2,800? And would you take that same situation again i.e. 16 successive years in the championship?

 

In those 16 years we were undoubtedly a selling club and for 14 of those 16 years we raised more from selling players than we spent bringing players in. However with 2 excellant managers and a board that (despite critisism from fans) allowed stability for the manager to build a team within budgets (albeit where player sales formed part of the budget) we became a stronger team and club and eventually had some short term success before the inevitable fall from grace.

 

Talking of the Trotman situation today reminds me so much of the late 70's under Sir Jimmy when despite the critisism, the Club sold Simon Stainrod to QPR for £275,000. His relacement was one Roger Palmer, who cost £70,000. Now at the time supporters were gutted, but the manager and the board knew what they were doing. It was a constant theme. Royle did the same. Sell Mark Ward to West Ham for £250,000 and re-invest some of that money on other players to generally improve the squad overall. Later that season he brought in Mick Quinn for £52,000 and sold him 2 years later to Portsmouth for £150,000. Its the way of the world on gates of 5,000.

 

Tbh I would have sold Porter last season for the money we were offered, especially if tta would have let the manager re-invest in the team. With the stadium re-development and consequential increase in revenues to help us become self sufficient just around the corner and if there is a serious offer now for any of our better players and the money is made available to strenghten the squad, again I would take it and start buidling now for next season. This season we are not going up. We are not good enough or strong enough.

 

We do not want or need the hassle of wholesale changes again in the summer. We need some stability. 2 or 3 players in this window, 3/4 in the summer and 2/3 next January in the window is the way to go.

 

Stabilty is what we need to progress. History backs that up and if the odd sacrifice has to be made then so be it.

 

Finally, can anyone name a centre half around Trotman's age and played a similar amount of games and who in the last 3 years has gone from League 1 to the Championship or Premiership for either £350,000 or £500,000 or more?

[oafcprozac]

This topic started off with the yet unconfirmed rumour started off by a jounalist in Plymouth that his/her local club was closing in on Trotman. No quotes, no innuendoes, nothing substantive.

 

The thread has degenerated in my opinion into a no win debate. We all have our opinions and most are unlikely to change theirs particularly whilst we are all depressed about results and lack of goals, Saturday's in particular, and generally since the win at Everton.

 

Over the years whilst as a club we have been in the doldrums this is a recurring theme, our crowds have gone up and down, reflecting our various successes and failures and stagnations. I pose this question. Did staying in the old second division, now Championship, for an unbroken period of 16 years class as a success? If it did, why did our crowds drop as low as 2,800? And would you take that same situation again i.e. 16 successive years in the championship?

 

In those 16 years we were undoubtedly a selling club and for 14 of those 16 years we raised more from selling players than we spent bringing players in. However with 2 excellant managers and a board that (despite critisism from fans) allowed stability for the manager to build a team within budgets (albeit where player sales formed part of the budget) we became a stronger team and club and eventually had some short term success before the inevitable fall from grace.

 

Talking of the Trotman situation today reminds me so much of the late 70's under Sir Jimmy when despite the critisism, the Club sold Simon Stainrod to QPR for £275,000. His relacement was one Roger Palmer, who cost £70,000. Now at the time supporters were gutted, but the manager and the board knew what they were doing. It was a constant theme. Royle did the same. Sell Mark Ward to West Ham for £250,000 and re-invest some of that money on other players to generally improve the squad overall. Later that season he brought in Mick Quinn for £52,000 and sold him 2 years later to Portsmouth for £150,000. Its the way of the world on gates of 5,000.

 

Tbh I would have sold Porter last season for the money we were offered, especially if tta would have let the manager re-invest in the team. With the stadium re-development and consequential increase in revenues to help us become self sufficient just around the corner and if there is a serious offer now for any of our better players and the money is made available to strenghten the squad, again I would take it and start buidling now for next season. This season we are not going up. We are not good enough or strong enough.

 

We do not want or need the hassle of wholesale changes again in the summer. We need some stability. 2 or 3 players in this window, 3/4 in the summer and 2/3 next January in the window is the way to go.

 

Stabilty is what we need to progress. History backs that up and if the odd sacrifice has to be made then so be it.

 

Finally, can anyone name a centre half around Trotman's age and played a similar amount of games and who in the last 3 years has gone from League 1 to the Championship or Premiership for either £350,000 or £500,000 or more?

 

 

Great post, succintly summarises the way we have gone in the past and the way we need to go!

 

This season we are not going up. We are not good enough or strong enough.

Completely agree and the sooner some of the delusional realise this the better we'll all get on.

 

We do not want or need the hassle of wholesale changes again in the summer. We need some stability. 2 or 3 players in this window, 3/4 in the summer and 2/3 next January in the window is the way to go.

 

Again this is the only way we'll achieve success, build on what we have, exactly as Royle did.

 

86/87 we failed in the play offs, but we suffered a lack of firepower once Royle fell out with Futcher

 

87/88 We signed Ritchie, he needed a foil later we signed Bunn. Towards the end of the season we signed Rhodes and Marshall. After a poor start we recovered spectacularly and almost made the Play Offs again. Barrett arrived that season too.

 

88/89 Defensively we were dire, we signed Warhurst in the October, then moved to sign Adams on loan, Hallworth and Andy Holden, again we rallied and avoided relegation easily.

 

89/90 Adams signed permanently, and Rick Holden arrrived. Redfearn signed mid-season,The jigsaw was pretty much complete.

 

So we had added to the nucleus we already had of Milligan, Henry, Barlow, Donachie, Palmer and Irwin, although we lost Milligan and Irwin that summer, we already had their replacements in the squad in Warhurst and Redders, then we added further with the signing of Gunnar Halle during the Championship season

 

90/91 The final piece arrived early season, one Richard Jobson.

 

 

 

Whilst it is very disappointing what is happening on the field, Sheridan if he stays will have my backing (despite my frustrations at his lack of Plan B and playing players out of position) until the end of next season. Let him add to what he's got and despite mine and others doom and gloom attitudes there is the nucleus of a good side there. However, despite my reservations i'm starting to think we need that midfield talisman afterall or certainly a Hoolahan type winger and a big lump of a striker. Get them in and we'll be ok. If we sell Trotman, Eardley and Taylor then so be it. Finances do dictate unfortunately , but as long as we get replacements in i've not really got a problem with it. Building a side means trial and error, Sheridan's only failing is his constant hesitancy within the market and the fact he aspires too high, many of our so called legends arrived in so called sideways moves. Wright, Ritchie, Bunn etc... or they were kids higher up the leagues. Common sense says if you want experience from a higher level it will break the bank. I feel we got very lucky with the availability of Charlton, Liddell and Gregan, now I feel we will left with either no signings or inadequate panic signings ala Molango.

Edited January 28, 2008 by oafcprozac

[Inspiral_Carpet]

I think the "selling club" term was mine on page 1 - and IC rightly jibbed at it - if I rephrase it as " a club who'll sell if the price is high enough, and a club that can't afford the wages of the better players it attracts on loan or wants to buy" - does it make it more acceptable?

 

BTW - the argument is pointless because we have sold players. Let's start again - I know we gotta sell players, but not at knock down prices. That is truly going against TTA's past policy

 

In all honesty, I've read the phrase loads of times recently and wasn't actually directing my initial comment back to you OP!

 

As for my pursuit of CJ Lags, I disagreed with his opinion so asked him to justify his arguments about players sold and these ficticious drab journeymen. He couldn't do it and even came out with the "Happy Clappers" throw-away line to try to get me off the case. I've noticed it is something he often does with people who disagree with his opinion (bit like jerzybalowski and his "lemmings" snipe) but as it was directed at me, then I continued to pursue him for clarification/ justification.

[BP1960]

Finally, can anyone name a centre half around Trotman's age and played a similar amount of games and who in the last 3 years has gone from League 1 to the Championship or Premiership for either £350,000 or £500,000 or more?

 

Younger than Trotman, but was playing at a lower level.

 

Liverpool

[Lags]

IC, cos I see both sides and having bits of both sides form my opinion I sometimes see an answer to a question to simplistic. This day and age where players go for nothing far more often than was the case pre bosman and certainly I believe more frequently, a once selling club could still have the same ethic now but just not get as many fee's. If you see what I mean. You and I have been Latics fans long enough to know how this club worked and survived down the years, yet it still erk's that we can't keep our best players.

[Inspiral_Carpet]

IC, cos I see both sides and having bits of both sides form my opinion I sometimes see an answer to a question to simplistic. This day and age where players go for nothing far more often than was the case pre bosman and certainly I believe more frequently, a once selling club could still have the same ethic now but just not get as many fee's. If you see what I mean. You and I have been Latics fans long enough to know how this club worked and survived down the years, yet it still erk's that we can't keep our best players.

 

There are probably too many different debates going on within this thread but the reason I was specific with CJ about "Sales" was because I just couldn't see where he was coming from.

 

Bosman changed so much you are right and so even if they had wanted, the one thing that TTA have not been able to do is sell to fund the Club. Instead, they pour more and more money in week after week but their efforts are not being rewarded with performances on the pitch. Since they took over, I bet they have not made one signing thinking that they would receive a transfer fee at the other end.

 

It would be great to keep some of the better players but these days, they and their Agents have too much power. Higher up the Leagues, players are tied in with longer Contracts but at our level, the gamble is too great.

 

As has been said several times on here today, we've got ourselves excited about a newspaper article that may not be right and which may have a totally inaccurate fee involved - one which seems well under the odds and which has got the hackles raised! If it were £750k, then I bet most would be saying "sell"!

[Corporal_Jones]

And while we haven't sold anyone, we are still apparently a selling Club and of course we ain't doomed at all. No really we aren't.

So your argument is now round to thinking we need a settled Team something on which we agree. The down-side though is by getting a talented and settled squad together, we will attract envious glances from the bigger boys and of course there are player's ambitions (plus Bosman) as well.

 

That's life I'm afraid.

 

 

 

I've already said that it wasn't me who used the words selling club, but what's so difficult to understand about the point that we rarely keep our better players long term? A situation which is worse than being a selling club, as we don't even get any financial remuneration when the better players move on.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[BP1960]

Perhaps a Trotman deal with Nicky Chadwick thrown in is in the offing ?

He's a big robust centre forward, just the type required.

[Corporal_Jones]

As for my pursuit of CJ Lags, I disagreed with his opinion so asked him to justify his arguments about players sold and these ficticious drab journeymen.

 

 

 

How many times do I need to explain myself? I and others have explained the point several times over.

[Corporal_Jones]

Over the years whilst as a club we have been in the doldrums this is a recurring theme, our crowds have gone up and down, reflecting our various successes and failures and stagnations. I pose this question. Did staying in the old second division, now Championship, for an unbroken period of 16 years class as a success? If it did, why did our crowds drop as low as 2,800?

 

 

 

Gates as low as that were rare though-and attendances were lower right across the board at the time.

 

Had the directors at BP had the foresight and ability to attract new investment while we were in the Premier League and, to some extent, a fashionable club, we could have built our fanbase as plenty of other clubs have done since the early-to-mid nineties. Instead we entered long-term decline on the eve of the biggest boom in the history of football.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Inspiral_Carpet]

How many times do I need to explain myself? I and others have explained the point several times over.

 

Just once would be nice. You are the only person who referred to "drab journeymen" and yet you haven't been able to justify the comment despite me asking 3 times.

 

You also claim you didn't mention us as a Selling Club but have a look at your post at your post of 13.07 today (top of Page 4).

 

You use both these "points" as justification for our impending free fall into oblivion and yet when challenged to support your theory, you come up with some bluster about Happy Clappers.

[Corporal_Jones]

Just once would be nice. You are the only person who referred to "drab journeymen" and yet you haven't been able to justify the comment despite me asking 3 times.

 

You also claim you didn't mention us as a Selling Club but have a look at your post at your post of 13.07 today (top of Page 4).

 

You use both these "points" as justification for our impending free fall into oblivion and yet when challenged to support your theory, you come up with some bluster about Happy Clappers.

 

 

 

I haven't said we are in free-fall to oblivion, just that it could happen more easily than some posters on here seem to think.

 

The drab journeymen label was in connection with the 'plan of action' outlined by BT.

 

And I wish you'd stop trying to pretend that you can't understand the point about there being no real difference between being a selling club and being a club that can't, or is unwilling to, hang on to its better players. The effect is the same after all. Except, as I say for the third time, that it's in actual fact worse, seeing as you get nothing for the departing player.

 

Anyway, I'll leave you to pick over stuff that I might have written five or six hours ago, in order to make essentially the same post once again.

[the_mighty_bosh]

Forget loans, build a team for the future, and Trotman should be part of it.

 

Exactly.

[Crusoe]

Right. Can't be bothered to read all seven pages of this, but doesn't it boil down to whether Trotman is likely to sign a new deal or not?

 

If he has done, then the fee offered seems too low.

 

If he hasn't, then after Porter last year it makes sense to take what's offered now. We're unlikely to get much compensation if he leaves on a free since he was only training with us for a couple of years.

 

If the debate is why hasn't he signed a new deal - well, none of us can answer that one. Maybe he's determine to leave (or his agent is). Maybe he wants more than our Sheridan/TTA is comfortable offering.

[Crusoe]

Oh, and of course this could all be paper talk. Who knows?

[Harry Dowds Green Shirt]

Gates as low as that were rare though-and attendances were lower right across the board at the time.

 

Had the directors at BP had the foresight and ability to attract new investment while we were in the Premier League and, to some extent, a fashionable club, we could have built our fanbase as plenty of other clubs have done since the early-to-mid nineties. Instead we entered long-term decline on the eve of the biggest boom in the history of football.

 

 

Corporal,

 

To an extent you are right. However gates at that level were experienced in both the Frizzell & Royle eras and that was at 2nd division (championship) level. Also you cannot go on for too long with that level of attendances without hitting financial difficulties.

 

Your statement regarding the directors having (a) the foresight or ( the ability to attract new investment, while we were in the premier league has some merit. However, I know that during that time efforts were made to attract new investors but despite best efforts, no one came forward. Remember as far back as Marks and Spencers proposed new store on Clayton Playing fields etc. Such efforts have always been thwarted by one party or another (in a number of cases the Council) I know that it was not for lack of trying that new investment was not achieved. Furthermore, what has been achieved in recent times? JW Lees could not sell their shares depsite making it known that they wanted out. Three directors bought those shares with a view to finding a long term buyer. The best they could come up with was Chris Moore. His obligation in the contract was to invest £1.5 million over a 3 year period. He messed up and wrote off a further £4 million in loans he had put into the club over 2 years. We then had the period of uncertainty and the Norwegian fiasco before TTA came to the rescue.

 

It is alright saying that had the directors had the foresight. The fact is the ability to find Oldhams equivalent of Jack Walker or Dave Whelan is extremely limited and in all honesty I am not aware of such a person at that level being an Oldham fan. In terms of the wider business community, well Boundary Park has always had its vast land bank yet no one has previously managed to grab the mantle to develop it to its full potential until now.

 

I fully believe that we are lucky to have our current owners who have had the ability and patience to take us forward to what hopefully will be a period of stability and hopefully promotion.

 

I am not trying to score point or have an argument with you or anyone else for that matter, but those are the facts that I am aware of and I hope they help a little.

 

Regards,

 

 

Harry