a moan

[Corporal_Jones]

Your argument has no basis. There's an absence of ambition at Boundary Park? The stadium redevelopment blows this right out of the water.

 

TTA are damned if they do and damned if they don't. So they're losing £15k a week, but you propose that they should speculate to accumulate - spending more to get results and draw in the crowds. But what happens if the results don't come and, in turn, neither do the spectators? And, to compete with other clubs, we'd be having to dish out contracts with players, much like the Ch**s M**re era, albeit not necessarily on the same scale.

 

It leaves me at a loss that a Latics fan, having seen what we all did only a few years back, would be criticising TTA for their approach to such things. Where would you suggest they draw the line on weekly losses, in order to get the fans flocking?

 

Don't get me wrong, it was a disappointment that Livermore (a good signing I should add) was the only signing yesterday but I've no doubt TTA were just as disappointed that things transpired as they did.

 

TTA are going about things the right way, in my book, measured ambition is the only way for a club like Latics - we've seen the fallout of the alternative when things almost inevitably go wrong. They won't get everything right of course, but then, who does?

 

 

It wouldn't necessarily have to be on the same scale as during the CM era. All I keep pointing out in the face of arguments that allege that there are ambitions for us to get out of this division is that without investing in a squad capable of doing it-and keeping that squad together instead of starting again with a new side every season-then crowds will continue to fall. I don't believe that this would take lunatic wages and contracts, but it would mean a certain amount of financial gambling. That's the way it goes in football, and there's no way round it-you go for success and hope that the public will respond in enough numbers to make the gamble worthwhile. The last ten years have already demonstrated to us that the Oldham public will only respond (and then slowly) when the club looks serious about promotion. Just watch what happens to the season ticket sales in the summer if no convincing progress is made in this direction.

 

While I agree that we are fortunate to have TTA, to base everything around the new stadium and the revenue it will hopefully bring in, is hopeless in the short-to-medium term. For one thing, the situation whereby it will create extrea streams of revenue is years away yet. If we continue to tread water until then, without showing any serious intent to climb, interest within the town will remain low, and the weekly losses that so many fans like to use as an excuse for mediocrity will not go away-they are more likely to get larger, particularly as there seems to be a situation where even die-hard fans who have been coming to BP for decades find their interest waning due to the seeming hopelessness of our prospects of ever playing at an higher level again (some people, at least, don't accept a situation where it's stated that we can no longer compete with football giants like Doncaster, Swansea Carlisle and Scunthorpe). The rest, meanwhile, while repeating the new stadium mantra (have we ever heard it stated plainly that a significant percentage extra revenue would be invested in the playing squad, or are we merely assuming it?) seem to have more or less resigned themselves to the idea that this is the level at which we belong. In this they are joined by a new generation of fans (small in number) who know nothing other than the club being at this level and expect little else. As this season has shown (mirroring the Talbot and Ritchie periods) all this adds up to a recipe for drift, with the final humiliation of relegation to the basement divison an ever-present threat. Relegation would, of course, mean more losses that would eat into any extra cash generated by the stadium redevelopment-the impact of which would be diluted if we are by then drifting about in the middle of the Fourth Division (because, make no mistake, if we go down we are not coming back in a hurry as, as the post-1994 years have illustrated, when this club is relegated there is clearly always an adjustment made for life long-term at the lower level, no matter what is often stated to the contrary.)

 

Personally, events over the past decade, including during this latest period of ownership, lead me to a conclusion that the level of ambition within the club, reflecting that of a majority of the fans who still bother to attend games, is to maintain it at the current level, new stadium or not: the purpose of the latter project is to fend off the kind of long-term decline that would threaten the club's very existence, but no more than that. I hope I am proved wrong.

 

Apologies in advance to the happy clappers for an alternative take on their 'realism.'

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Guest sheridans_world]

ambitions for us to get out of this division is that without investing

 

TTA have always stated they have supported managers - Shez has cash to spend, he just isnt spending. Probably because he has a war chest of cash now available to splash out in the summer.

 

instead of starting again with a new side every season-then crowds will continue to fall.

Has this really happened? No. Shez inherited most of Ronnies team, he brought some new faces in but alot of the squad was Ronnies. This season we have done the same, both strikers have left, defence is pretty much the same (to be expected) Allott in for Wellens. Dont forget Liddell and Gregan are injured.

I don't believe that this would take lunatic wages and contracts, but it would mean a certain amount of financial gambling.

 

Thats why they are loosing cash every week hopeing that it will eventually come good. That is called a 'gamble'.

 

to base everything around the new stadium and the revenue it will hopefully bring in, is hopeless in the short-to-medium term. For one thing, the situation whereby it will create extrea streams of revenue is years away yet.

 

Football isnt a 'right now' business in the lower divisions. With crowds dwindleing due to cost and sky clubs need to invest in the medium to long term to be able to survive full stop. There is no use looking 'short term' all the time as administration will happen.

If we continue to tread water until then, without showing any serious intent to climb, interest within the town will remain low

 

As with many other clubs 'just surviving'

 

(some people, at least, don't accept a situation where it's stated that we can no longer compete with football giants like Doncaster, Swansea Carlisle and Scunthorpe).

 

Owners willing to splash cash randomly or a team that is doing well for a change.

 

Take a look at our team last season, not exactley promotion material?

 

Apologies in advance to the happy clappers for an alternative take on their 'realism.'

 

Nice way to sign off a post, always defending yourself, cant quite help it can you?

 

If you learn how to paragraph more i might have read more of your post rather than a big block of text.

[Corporal_Jones]

Take a look at our team last season, not exactley promotion material?

Nice way to sign off a post, always defending yourself, cant quite help it can you?

 

If you learn how to paragraph more i might have read more of your post rather than a big block of text.

 

 

 

Don't quite understand this point. Everybdy likes to say that last year was, for a time, an unexpected bonus. The abject collapse into relegation form (which is what we saw betwen February and April) came about because the squad had not been assembled with promotion in mind.

 

As for the rest, whether you read it or not is entirely up to you. Long paragraphs or not, it isn't exactly The Glass Bead Game.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Corporal_Jones]

TTA have always stated they have supported managers - Shez has cash to spend, he just isnt spending. Probably because he has a war chest of cash now available to splash out in the summer.

Has this really happened? No. Shez inherited most of Ronnies team, he brought some new faces in but alot of the squad was Ronnies. This season we have done the same, both strikers have left, defence is pretty much the same (to be expected) Allott in for Wellens. Dont forget Liddell and Gregan are injured.

Thats why they are loosing cash every week hopeing that it will eventually come good. That is called a 'gamble'.

Football isnt a 'right now' business in the lower divisions. With crowds dwindleing due to cost and sky clubs need to invest in the medium to long term to be able to survive full stop. There is no use looking 'short term' all the time as administration will happen.

As with many other clubs 'just surviving'

Owners willing to splash cash randomly or a team that is doing well for a change.

 

 

 

Looking short -term is exactly the opposite of what I've been talking about.

 

I also fail to understand the 'Sheridan inherited Ronnie's team' argument-is that the team that performed better (for a time) than the current one?

 

Same with the argument that tries to justify letting players go only to replace them with players of inferior quality (albeit committed).

 

Seeing looming administraton and financial disaster behhind each and every suggestion that a quality squad be assembled, in my book only goes to prove my point about where the ambition of club and fans really lies.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Harry Dowds Green Shirt]

I think we have found senor coconuts alter ego.

[Corporal_Jones]

I think we have found senor coconuts alter ego.

 

 

I can identify with anybody who feels profoundly pessimistic about the future of this club (football-wise), and the direction in which football in general is going, and feel no need to apologise for it.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Seeing looming administraton and financial disaster behhind each and every suggestion that a quality squad be assembled, in my book only goes to prove my point about where the ambition of club and fans really lies.

 

But isn't that the reason why we've been quite reserved in what we pay or offer for players these days? When it comes down to it, we've been at both ends of the spectrum financially in a short space of time which you can't say has been the same for other clubs.

 

Quality players come at a premium price. They also have to be assembled correctly and you also need a little bit of luck with injuries and loss of key players. To get that formula right is far from easy, but it is do-able. I don't think the ambition of the staff or owners can be questioned at all, it certainly isn't to amble around in this division anyway.

 

To be honest, I'd be far more worried if we were splashing the cash and bringing quality player after quality player in. Somehow, somewhere the books have to be balanced. The structure of the club pretty much dictates what we can and can't afford for players and until we DO start getting perhaps, 7 or 8k through the gates it's going to take however long it takes to get the magic formula 100% spot on.

[Stevie_J]

What it boils down to is priorities. The club's success or its existence? Success will always rank below existence for me.

[Corporal_Jones]

What it boils down to is priorities. The club's success or its existence? Success will always rank below existence for me.

 

 

This is what I mean-as long as the choice between potential success and perpetual mediocrity is presented in such apocalyptic terms we are guaranteed the latter. The Chris Moore episode has left Latics fans feeling frightened of their own shadows.

 

'The Lambs of Sheepfoot Lane' indeed.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Hometownclub]

Surely for any football club losing 15K per week the main priority has to be Existance.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

The Chris Moore episode has left Latics fans feeling frightened of their own shadows.

 

'The Lambs of Sheepfoot Lane' indeed.

 

Or just wary of not being down that creek again without a paddle? I like care and caution me. I don't feel comfortable when I'm not living within my means, why should I feel comfortable if my club is doing the same?

 

You've not called everyone 'happy clappers' yet Corp. I set my watch via that usually.

[Corporal_Jones]

I don't think the ambition of the staff or owners can be questioned at all, it certainly isn't to amble around in this division anyway.

 

 

 

As I've already pointed out, when you take ino accont that we have never, to my knowledge, heard it plainly stated that significant extra revenue from the stadium redevelopment will be channelled into the playing side, do we have any evidence of this?

 

I don't doubt that TTA seek to leave a positive legacy at this club, and are working hard to this end, but I am far from convinced that it involves any worthwhile progess in footballing terms.

[Corporal_Jones]

Or just wary of not being down that creek again without a paddle? I like care and caution me. I don't feel comfortable when I'm not living within my means, why should I feel comfortable if my club is doing the same?

 

You've not called everyone 'happy clappers' yet Corp. I set my watch via that usually.

 

 

 

I don't see your point. Your personal situation and that of a sporting club that has, like all others, to speculate in order to accumulate, are in no way the same.

 

Why does being labelled a happy clapper upset people so much?

[Corporal_Jones]

Surely for any football club losing 15K per week the main priority has to be Existance.

 

 

 

Most professional football clubs are losing sigificant money a weekly basis. A small number of them manage to assemble playing squads that get them promoted to a higher divsion without putting themselves out of business.

 

Strange as it may seem.

[jimsleftfoot]

Or just wary of not being down that creek again without a paddle? I like care and caution me. I don't feel comfortable when I'm not living within my means, why should I feel comfortable if my club is doing the same?

 

You've not called everyone 'happy clappers' yet Corp. I set my watch via that usually.

 

Living in your means is one thing but there is being too cautious. I have happily used credit to my advantage and its meant that I have been able to buy a house, car, holidays etc and enable me to get drunk regularly as a poor student. I have benefited from the cash flow advantages and have managed to keep it within my means.

 

Some of my mates are not so risk averse and would rather save every last penny. One mate saved 10k up in a couple of years for a deposit for a house. I managed to get a 100% mortgage a couple of years earlier and benefited from the house price increase. She can’t afford a mortgage even with the 10k deposit.

[garcon]

Corporal, it strikes me there are a few things you just refuse to accept:

 

1. TTA want far more for this club than 'perpetual mediocrity'.

2. TTA are showing that ambition with the budget they have given successive managers for transfers and wages.

3. TTA are working to a very detailed and specific business plan - one that works towards sustainable stability and the flexibility to develop the team and go into the market when we need to.

4. This is football, there is no immediate and automatic correlation between money spent on players/wages and success on the pitch - sometimes it clicks straight away, sometimes it takes time, sometimes it just doesn't and you have to start again. (And sometimes, it isn't anyone's 'fault').

5. Yes it's frustrating to see players like Porter and Wellens leave in the ways they did, but no player is worth breaking the business plan for.

6. The only way to show the level of 'ambition' you seem to be demanding is to return to the Billy Big Bucks approach of Chris M**re. And the only guarantee that brings is financial nightmares for the future (promotion or not).

[Corporal_Jones]

What it boils down to is priorities. The club's success or its existence? Success will always rank below existence for me.

 

 

 

In any case, mere existence is meaningless when you consider that the very reason for forming a club that competes in professonal sports is to gain success in its chosen sport.

 

If its mere hobbyism you want, we could all go fell walking, or something similarly non-competitive on a Saturday afternoon-and it would be cheaper.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[beag_teeets]

Most professional football clubs are losing sigificant money a weekly basis.

 

If your mate jumped off a cliff would you do it?

 

Sooner or later those clubs are going to have to pay for living beyond their means, it is quite common for clubs to be sold once the current regime are sick of or unable to cover the losses. Usually the incoming mug owner pays off this debt and they start building it up again. How many times have clubs changed hands for £1 as the old owner basically sells the debt to the new owner mug to get the creditors of their back?

 

I can not see TTA building the stadium and associated development and then not investing some in the team, that doesn't make any business sense plus it doesn't fit with TTA's actions so far as they have made money available for players. At no time since they have come in has a manager said "I went to the owners but they told me I had to sell first" which has happened at alot of clubs, they have always backed their managers. Perhaps Shez is unusual in that he doesn't just buy who is available and wants the right player, perhaps he has too strict criteria but rather this than a manager who uses his son as an agent and has a revolving door transfer policy like some.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day and Oldham Athletic 2004 ltd have only been in the third division for about 3 years - oops, using stats for my own ends there and as we all know 72.6% of all stats are made up, I would rather have long term stability with incremental improvements than rapid unsecured success built on foundations of sand.

[Corporal_Jones]

Corporal, it strikes me there are a few things you just refuse to accept:

 

1. TTA want far more for this club than 'perpetual mediocrity'.

2. TTA are showing that ambition with the budget they have given successive managers for transfers and wages.

3. TTA are working to a very detailed and specific business plan - one that works towards sustainable stability and the flexibility to develop the team and go into the market when we need to.

4. This is football, there is no immediate and automatic correlation between money spent on players/wages and success on the pitch - sometimes it clicks straight away, sometimes it takes time, sometimes it just doesn't and you have to start again. (And sometimes, it isn't anyone's 'fault').

5. Yes it's frustrating to see players like Porter and Wellens leave in the ways they did, but no player is worth breaking the business plan for.

6. The only way to show the level of 'ambition' you seem to be demanding is to return to the Billy Big Bucks approach of Chris M**re. And the only guarantee that brings is financial nightmares for the future (promotion or not).

 

 

 

1, Possible, and I've always liked to think so, but, in terms of the playing side, mere speculation.

 

2, Perfectly understandable that they set sch a budget, but it is clearly inadequate to the task of getting us promoted when it does not run to the club consistently being able to retain its better players.

 

3, I hope so, but as already noted, we can only believe that significant money will be invested in the playing squad when we see it. That time is, in any case, years away. In the meantime, we seem to exist precariously with playing squads that could as easily get us relegated as to the fringes of the play-offs, as the present one and Talbot's both proved.

 

4, Again as we have already seen, it simply won't work unless we keep a settled squad with a stable core of quality players. Constantly 'starting again' is the reason for this season's fiasco, as well as that of other recent seasons, one of which saw us nearly relegated.

 

5, See point 2.

 

6, Simply not true-as said to another poster, most teams who manage to gain promotion do so without nearly going out of business.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

As I've already pointed out, when you take ino accont that we have never, to my knowledge, heard it plainly stated that significant extra revenue from the stadium redevelopment will be channelled into the playing side, do we have any evidence of this?

 

I don't doubt that TTA seek to leave a positive legacy at this club, and are working hard to this end, but I am far from convinced that it involves any worthwhile progess in footballing terms.

 

So what do you want them to do. State that xx% of ALL revenue will be guaranteed to be spent on the playing side? And which clubs are as open as you're suggesting them to be regarding financing team affairs? Ain't many.

 

There's variables... which division will we be in when the stadium is complete? Who's the manager and what are his needs? What's the potential in the youth players? You know, all stuff that needs to be answered. Personally, I've faith that a significent amount of money will be made available, but we have to stabilise first. Which takes time, as we all know.

 

OK, you point out to ALL those clubs that have done JUST what you said. Let's select a few..

 

Stoke - Nope, they have that set up now, and are starting to see the fruits of their labours. 3 x the hard-core than us and a pretty stable management structure.

 

Southend - Oooh, that's more like it. Bit like us in size, but seemed to have a gem of a catalyst in Freddy Eastwood. They're bankrolled though with a fairly wealthy owner, but soon found themselves out of their depth in the division above, had to sell their star and are looking like another solid but unspectacular season in our division.

 

Colchester - Ahhhh, they're even SMALLER than us. But wait, it's all starting to go a bit wrong now. They had my magic formula nailed when they went up... solid team, hard to score against and extremely lucky with injuries. A couple of good additions saw them punch above their weight... for a season.

 

Blackpool - Hmmmm, remains to be seen yet. Never in their wildest dreams would they have predicted promotion halfway through last season, but good management, a bit of luck and a team high on confidence got them there. Still where they are with their two-sided ground and will soon feel the pinch if they don't remedy that side of things. perhaps they could be a decent blueprint if they get the ground sorted and stay up there for the next decade. Remains to be seen though.

 

So who are these magical teams that have our losses, on our scale, with our crowds that have consistent success?

 

And regarding 'happy clappers'... the only time it grates with me is when you're using the term to try and patch up the gaping holes in your arguement. It's depressingly predictable form Corporal.

[Corporal_Jones]

If your mate jumped off a cliff would you do it?

 

 

 

Beside the point, which is that we are among the vast majority of clubs in losing money on a weekly basis. Most of these clubs do not achieve anything. Some of them do-and, by doing so actually manage to alleviate their financial plight somewhat.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

In any case, mere existence is meaningless when you consider that the very reason for forming a club that competes in professonal sports is to gain success in its chosen sport.

 

Nurse! Pass the smelling salts.

 

Sooooo.... sh*t or bust is the bottom line with ya then?

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Beside the point, which is that we are among the vast majority of clubs in losing money on a weekly basis. Most of these clubs do not achieve anything. Some of them do-and, by doing so actually manage to alleviate their financial plight somewhat.

 

Who are these magical clubs which consistantly reach the holy grail all the time. C'mon, out with it!

[Corporal_Jones]

Sooner or later those clubs are going to have to pay for living beyond their means, it is quite common for clubs to be sold once the current regime are sick of or unable to cover the losses. Usually the incoming mug owner pays off this debt and they start building it up again. How many times have clubs changed hands for £1 as the old owner basically sells the debt to the new owner mug to get the creditors of their back?

 

 

 

Indeed it is-and if these clubs are then taken over by regimes without the wherewithal or ambition to improve their status, the whole cycle tends to repeat itself.

Peretual mediocrity is the one thig that guarantees financial losses.

 

This is nothing new, but due to recent developments in football we do seem to be heading towards a situation where many clubs will not be able to simply carry on in this way. They will cease to be professional clubs. On current trends (remember that we have no new studium yet), Oldham Athletic will be one of these clubs.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[danoafc]

I don't see your point. Your personal situation and that of a sporting club that has, like all others, to speculate in order to accumulate, are in no way the same.

 

Why does being labelled a happy clapper upset people so much?

 

I have to say Corporal, I do understand where you are coming from, however, maybe TTA see that as too much of a risk right now.

 

They may well be willing to 'speculate to accumulate' as it's been said to get us out of this division. The longer term implications of that have to be considered as well though.

 

If we did spend a few extra quid - maybe not huge sums, but perhaps more than would be considered 'safe', what happens when we get promoted? We then have to speculate to accumulate to stay in that division. We already know that the wages in the championship are significantly higher than they are in this league. What happens if we start badly and are around the bottom 3 or 4 come November and December? The 'new found' fans will soon be sick of watching us get beat week in week out and the whole thing starts over.

 

Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't be prepared to have a stab at it, just that I'd rather we were in a position (as a club) where we could sustain the higher wages by having better facilities/revenue streams etc rather than a bust or boom scenario.