Hillstone Dev

[Guest sheridans_world]

But this is the problem I've had with this past few years....it's as much a lack of vision and ambition by the management as it is the same by the fans. Moore brought most players in on 2yr deals to do a 2yr job. Problem is, the plan only saw 1yr...Shez comes in...has 1yr of success with a good squad but can't hold onto the players as their contracts end. The stagnation has come from sacking the last manager and not toughing it out and sticking to the plan. And thus the chop and change began and still continues. Those who forced TTA's hand are as guilty as TTA are in my eyes for this stagnation. Reaping and sowing. I've said repeatedly though, I really don't think we'll see many departures this summer (2 or 3 at most) and a few fresh faces to add what we've got. That's what I wanted in the summer of 2006.....sadly for me, the wrong departure occurred. Hopefully the same won't happen this time and we do slowly build on what we've started this season only.

 

Picture this... its 2028, we are sat in the coca-cola super bazzin championship league (the third tear of anglo-euro football) and the reason we didnt get promoted in the season 2027-28 is because Ronnie Moore left in 2005-06 and left a brilliant squad that should have won the FA Cup, league cup, challenge cup, ryder cup and the world chess championship and we havent had enough chance since to put it right because Ronnie Moore is a god and should be worshipped.

 

Applications to BB80 to join the church of Ronnie and the whipping boy. "And on the left hand of god sat John Breckin"

[Xander_OAFC]

Keepers didn't need gloves in my day, they didn't feel the cold cos they had a proper woollen jumper, itchy wool too, not this lambswool nonsense like that lad in pink were wearing in t'Huddersfield end. Worlds gone soft.

That lad in the pink last weekend was a right skidmark, he didn't try and divert attention anywhere else either, jumping up and down like a bloody puppet all match.

[boundaryblue80]

Picture this... its 2028, we are sat in the coca-cola super bazzin championship league (the third tear of anglo-euro football) and the reason we didnt get promoted in the season 2027-28 is because Ronnie Moore left in 2005-06 and left a brilliant squad that should have won the FA Cup, league cup, challenge cup, ryder cup and the world chess championship and we havent had enough chance since to put it right because Ronnie Moore is a god and should be worshipped.

 

Applications to BB80 to join the church of Ronnie and the whipping boy. "And on the left hand of god sat John Breckin"

But yet, you have nothing infact to add to the debate. No surprise!

[garcon]

Thing is BB80, I agree with some of what you say, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this notion of stagnation.

 

Ronnie Moore was working on a two year plan, and should have been allowed to finish it. He may have got us promoted that second year, although I have my doubts. Either way, he should have had that chance.

 

Sacking him then effectively put us back about 18 months and set us on an alternative more longterm course. We were starting again at year one with Sheridan, but for much of that year he was potentially hampered by having the remains of Moore's team. And Sheridan wasn't working to a two year plan. In fact, by committing themselves to a rookie I think TTA committed themselves to restarting a five year plan.

 

You can reasonably expect to give an experience old hand like Moore a two year goal. But when starting again with Sheridan as a rookie manager, you have to give him the flexibility to learn on the job, to make mistakes in his first couple of seasons and learn from them.

 

However poor the pre-season season ticket sales are, I'd far rather start next year as Year 3 of a 5 year Shez plan than start all over again in Year 1 of an a.n.other 2/3 year plan.

Edited April 3, 2008 by garcon

[Butter]

Agree 100% with the above. Glad you noted their horrendous injuries they've also had.....but have been quite pro-active in using the loan market whilst waiting for Shuker et al to regain fitness.

 

Also, indeed, it is in the past. But to address the question over stagnation (and hopefully how to avoid further stagnation) you have to learn from your past. I hope TTA do this time. Sadly, I'm not 100% convinced they have nor 100% convinced Shez will be here next season.....I'd say I'm 65/35 in my belief he'll still be here on what I've been told by not just anyone. First time I've aired this on here.....some have hinted at it. I know 1 or 2 are repeating the same as I've been told, but sadly have inserted it along with their own agenda of wanting Shez gone. I don't want Shez gone, but I know all ain't rosey behind the scenes and again, the ST sales might be the final straw. This greatly worries me!

 

Aye I've also been told things aren't rosey behind the scenes, Sheridan has had a falling out with the owners etc.

But the guy who told me has also said we're set to sign Constantine at the end of the season on a 2 year deal, now if Sheridans going why do we already have some (decent) signings lined up!

Edited April 3, 2008 by Butter

[boundaryblue80]

Thing is BB80, I agree with some of what you say, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this notion of stagnation.

 

Ronnie Moore was working on a two year plan, and should have been allowed to finish it. He may have got us promoted that second year, although I have my doubts. Either way, he should have had that chance.

 

Sacking him then effectively put us back about 18 months and set us on an alternative more longterm course. We were starting again at year one with Sheridan, but for much of that year he was potentially hampered by having the remains of Moore's team. And Sheridan wasn't working to a two year plan. In fact, by committing themselves to a rookie I think TTA committed themselves to restarting a five year plan.

 

You can reasonably expect to give an experience old hand like Moore a two year goal. But when starting again with Sheridan as a rookie manager, you have to give him the flexibility to learn on the job, to make mistakes in his first couple of seasons and learn from them.

 

However poor the pre-season season ticket sales are, I'd far rather start next year as Year 3 of a 5 year Shez plan than start all over again in Year 1 of an a.n.other 2/3 year plan.

 

Pretty much agree with all that! I'd say Shez's 1st season was helped, rather than hampered by Moores squad though. And that really Shez is starting afresh from Summer 2007.....hence he is now right where Moore was, when he was sacked. And so he's at least next season to progress on things. I stated this in July 2007 when I told happy clappers and D&Gers to expect mid-table this season with top 10 being an achievement. And to build from there. I think where you say it's put us back 18mths (which I agree with) is where some have labelled it stagnation. And goes back to what I was saying to Corporal....

 

"Glass half full of hope or glass half empty of stagnation."

 

As long as we keep the continuity, I think we'll push on next season regardless of some limitations Shez probably has. The majority of a 2yr plan/budget will be laid out in the 1st season over the longer contracts. We won't need to spend as much next season to add and push on. And upwards. One hopes!

[danoafc]

I don't want to see the club held to ransom but perhaps if we were a little more 'streetwise' when negotiating new deals or contract extensions we wouldn't constantly drop ourselves in the through lack of a plan B. Perhaps then we could do a Colchester or Scunny.

 

It seems fairly apparent that TTA are learning to be more streetwise - I think Ricketts contract (which was only ever 6 months with options to extend according to SC at the forum) is proff of this. In addition to that they've cashed in (rightly IMO) on Trotman etc. They've hopefully learned one or two more painful lessons from the Bertrand/Chelsea shafting and from Kilkenny walking away from us at the 11th hour. Lets hope they are as shrewd come the end of the season.

 

In relation to the job that Ronnie has done at PP this season - yeah, he's done well enough - even taking into account their injuries (which whilst bad have been knowhere near as crippling as our IMO) - yet they are still only 4 points in front of us at this stage of the season. I think a fairer comparison should be drawn as to how Sheridan is doing at the end of next season.

 

The club now need to have some balls and stick with him (Shez), making a reasonable amount of cash available to strengthen in the close season.

 

It should also be mentioned that he and TW were praised by the board at the forum for the position they had got us into despite our injuries.

[Harry Dowds Green Shirt]

Talk about a thread going off topic.

 

What was the topic?

[Guest oa_exile]

Talk about a thread going off topic.

 

What was the topic?

 

Will Hillstones Develop Shez into a good Manager ?

[leeslover]

I have never heard any evidence that we were on this two year plan with Moore. It just suits BB80’s argument concerning why we managed a decent season after he got sacked, so he repeats it so frequently that many of us have come to believe that we coined the phrase ourselves.

[Guest oa_exile]

I have never heard any evidence that we were on this two year plan with Moore. It just suits BB80’s argument concerning why we managed a decent season after he got sacked, so he repeats it so frequently that many of us have come to believe that we coined the phrase ourselves.

 

Didnt Ronnie Hoof himself say that ? and repeats it every time we play them ?

[Corporal_Jones]

Erm....I haven't said all other clubs have.....I've said that only those who can throw money at it like Donny and Swansea (for their fortunate reasons of catchment or Roman of League 1) or if you don't do that, then you have the likes of Colchester or Scunny who build, build, build......

 

We can't do the first option so must opt for the 2nd one.....unfortunately to you that sounds like accepting defeat and being doomed to stay at this level or lower forever. And that's the crux of it. Glass half full of hope or glass half empty of stagnation. A shame that you're drinking from that glass!

 

PS The only thing I'm really pissed at is that I feel we were building 2yrs back, regardless to what others thought, but the majority decided to break it all back down and start again resulting in 2yrs of going nowhere. Now some want to do the same bloody thing again with the current manager. Hoping that doesn't happen this time.

 

I don't really see what's so difficult to grasp here. The club has, over the past decade, survived on gates of between four and five thousand (except in the best of times). These are what can be called the hardcore support base. Now, for whatever reason, and the so-called derby aganst Huddersfield excepted (and that was a very poor gate for a 'derby'), the home crowd has dipped to well under 4,000. You can only conclude that a section of the hardcore support is, for whatever reason, drifting away.

[boundaryblue80]

I have never heard any evidence that we were on this two year plan with Moore. It just suits BB80’s argument concerning why we managed a decent season after he got sacked, so he repeats it so frequently that many of us have come to believe that we coined the phrase ourselves.

You think that LL, if you want.....said it from day one of Moore's first full season. So carry on with like the above if you like. Just like I've said it about any manager.

 

By the way....the irony....."repeats it so frequently that many of us have come to believe that".....now that's exactly what the Moore year became from October....and the sheep followed!

[Guest oa_exile]

I don't really see what's so difficult to grasp here. The club has, over the past decade, survived on gates of between four and five thousand (except in the best of times). These are what can be called the hardcore support base. Now, for whatever reason, and the so-called derby aganst Huddersfield excepted (and that was a very poor gate for a 'derby'), the home crowd has dipped to well under 4,000. You can only conclude that a section of the hardcore support is, for whatever reason, drifting away.

 

Agree , the expectancy level was high this season which for numerous reason's has led to dissapointment , hence the poor attendance's.

It's been posted numerous times now , our poor home performance's have also added to the decline , we have all seen some gash display's this season and bottom line is fans pay to be entertained which on many occassions this season has failed to materialise.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I have come away from BP saying we played well or we were unlucky not to get something from the game.

[leeslover]

You think that LL, if you want.....said it from day one of Moore's first full season. So carry on with like the above if you like. Just like I've said it about any manager.

 

By the way....the irony....."repeats it so frequently that many of us have come to believe that".....now that's exactly what the Moore year became from October....and the sheep followed!

It’s fine for you to say it, but you make out that it was the policy of the club, not your own opinion which happens to fit in with what you think about Ronnie’s era. As I’ve said before, TTA offered Ronnie 3 years on his deal, which rather destroys that one, presumably Ronnie was hoping for an offer from a bigger club and didn’t want to be tied down.

[Corporal_Jones]

As for holier than thouness....first of all, stop kidding yourself that the fickledoms walking away now have previously "prevented the club declining further still"....only TTA's deep pockets and the like of me still staying have prevented that. And as they walk, it means TTAs pockets and our own too (with rises over the years) have had to become deeper. I and many like myself are what makes OAFC.....not those who choose when to support. You call me holier than thou....think it means anything to me?

 

 

 

I don't expect it to mean anything to you. Every disagreement isn't some kind of personal duel, you know.

 

The point remains that when the home crowd falls to the three and a half thousand mark, lower than it was in the darkest days under Ritchie and Brierley, it isn't the fickle who are walking.

[real]

I don't expect it to mean anything to you. Every disagreement isn't some kind of personal duel, you know.

 

The point remains that when the home crowd falls to the three and a half thousand mark, lower than it was in the darkest days under Ritchie and Brierley, it isn't the fickle who are walking.

 

I'm failry certain that it dipped to the low 3000s during ritchie's time, might even have gone under 3000. Can't find the records though.

[Inspiral_Carpet]

I don't really see what's so difficult to grasp here. The club has, over the past decade, survived on gates of between four and five thousand (except in the best of times). These are what can be called the hardcore support base. Now, for whatever reason, and the so-called derby aganst Huddersfield excepted (and that was a very poor gate for a 'derby'), the home crowd has dipped to well under 4,000. You can only conclude that a section of the hardcore support is, for whatever reason, drifting away.

 

 

No it hasn't. Facts once again don't back up your theories and this isn't the first time it's been pointed out to you.

 

Not once in the last 10 seasons has our average crowd been below 5400. It's a while since I did maths but that isn't between 4 and 5 thousand.

 

Similarly, your claim "3600 and falling" is wrong. As was pointed out, this was the third consecutive home game and was played on a Tuesday night with Bournemouth as opposition. Along with the Hartlepool game, these were anomalies and not the norm and so you are taking things out of context. The next two home crowds were 4171 and 4542. I agree not sparkling attendances but once again, rudimentary maths tells me that these are higher than 3600 and not "3600 and falling" as you claim.

 

As for the Port Vale game played earlier in the Season - the home fans totalled 4703. You were trying earlier to make out that we would only have got 3600. Again, facts don't fit with your arguments.

 

Now I know that the attendances this Season are poor and it's worrying for anyone who gives a toss about this Club. But to constantly read the propaganda and disinformation that you trot out in a vain attempt to "prove" your point is quite simply laughable.

 

Not interested in a debate with you since as others have said, your arguments are based on shifting sands as well as inaccurate data that appears to be a figment of your imagination as opposed to generally available fact.

 

You normally like to argue the toss with everybody on here but I notice that you have ignored Real's very valid post earlier on this thread. Perhaps his point doesn't fit with your argument as well?

[martjs]

"Tut , tut , tut "

 

"what's that skip ? , The guy from Hillstones has fallen down a mine shaft and .............."

 

 

PMSL! Good one

[oafcprozac]

Not once in the last 10 seasons has our average crowd been below 5400.

 

Not true Jeff, we averaged 4,972 in 2000/01

[Corporal_Jones]

No it hasn't. Facts once again don't back up your theories and this isn't the first time it's been pointed out to you.

 

Not once in the last 10 seasons has our average crowd been below 5400. It's a while since I did maths but that isn't between 4 and 5 thousand.

 

Similarly, your claim "3600 and falling" is wrong. As was pointed out, this was the third consecutive home game and was played on a Tuesday night with Bournemouth as opposition. Along with the Hartlepool game, these were anomalies and not the norm and so you are taking things out of context. The next two home crowds were 4171 and 4542. I agree not sparkling attendances but once again, rudimentary maths tells me that these are higher than 3600 and not "3600 and falling" as you claim.

 

As for the Port Vale game played earlier in the Season - the home fans totalled 4703. You were trying earlier to make out that we would only have got 3600. Again, facts don't fit with your arguments.

 

Now I know that the attendances this Season are poor and it's worrying for anyone who gives a toss about this Club. But to constantly read the propaganda and disinformation that you trot out in a vain attempt to "prove" your point is quite simply laughable.

 

Not interested in a debate with you since as others have said, your arguments are based on shifting sands as well as inaccurate data that appears to be a figment of your imagination as opposed to generally available fact.

 

You normally like to argue the toss with everybody on here but I notice that you have ignored Real's very valid post earlier on this thread. Perhaps his point doesn't fit with your argument as well?

 

 

 

Propaganda and disinformation on whose behalf? Calm yourself and drop the siege mentality.

 

3600 home fans was what I referred to.

 

Have it your way if you want: Crowds are falling but not falling; it's worrying, but then again, not at all worrying.

 

Somebody draw the carriage curtains and we'll all make engine noises. Chuff chuff, chuff chuff, woo woo....

Edited April 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones

[Corporal_Jones]

Not once in the last 10 seasons has our average crowd been below 5400. It's a while since I did maths but that isn't between 4 and 5 thousand.

 

 

 

Home fans.

[Corporal_Jones]

Jonesy,

 

are you seriously defining hardcore and diehards as the "fans" who are now leaving and giving up? Rather than those that when asked if they are renewing their ST, respond with "YES".

 

presumably you get a victoria cross for going home in your army.

"I'm Oldham 'til I get fed up, I'm Oldham 'til I get fed up........"

 

Utter cobblers, no matter how much YOU think such people are "hardcore" or "die hards", they quite clearly are NOT.

 

 

 

Is this the one that Inspiral refers to? I've already answered in a different context.

 

How many times can the obvious point be reiterated: when we dip below four thousand home fans it means that a section of the hardcore is staying away.

 

People used to refer to the faithful 5000, didn't they? Or sometimes the faithful 4000.

[Guest oa_exile]

Our Average League attendances since our relegation to Division 2 in season 1996/97

2007/08 - 5322 (to date)

2006/07 - 6334

2005/06 - 5796

2004/05 - 6462

2003/04 - 6566

2002/03 - 6699

2001/02 - 5800

2000/01 - 4972

1999/00 - 5391

1998/99 - 5628

1997/98 - 5588

[Inspiral_Carpet]

Not once in the last 10 seasons has our average crowd been below 5400.

 

Not true Jeff, we averaged 4,972 in 2000/01

 

I stand corrected. My knowledge of Latics stuff is about 10% of yours!

 

I remember getting the stats out in an old debate with The Corp when he was trying to claim our crowds were higher in "better" Seasons. As I proved at the time, that wasn't the case. Thought we'd not dipped below 5400 though but clearly we did in 2000/01.