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Scunthorpe & Colchester.....COME ON DOWN!


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just a quick update on the tables as they stand. important ends only

 

18 Blackpool 43 7 10 4 32 25 4 7 11 24 34 -3 50

19 Southampton 43 8 5 8 23 24 4 9 9 29 44 -16 50

20 Sheff Wed 43 8 5 9 25 24 4 8 9 21 27 -5 49

21 Coventry 43 8 7 7 24 25 5 3 13 21 33 -13 49

 

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22 Leicester 43 7 7 8 22 16 4 8 9 18 26 -2 48

23 Scunthorpe 43 6 7 8 25 28 3 5 14 14 36 -25 39

24 Colchester 43 4 8 9 30 35 3 8 11 28 42 -19 37

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 Swansea 43 12 5 4 33 18 13 6 3 43 21 37 86

2 Carlisle 43 17 2 2 37 13 6 8 8 25 27 22 79

 

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3 Doncaster 43 13 4 5 32 18 9 6 6 29 20 23 76

4 Nottm Forest 43 11 8 2 33 11 8 8 6 26 19 29 73

5 Southend 43 12 5 5 34 19 9 4 8 33 33 15 72

6 Leeds 42 14 4 4 39 17 10 6 4 28 19 31 67

 

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7 Walsall 42 7 8 5 24 20 9 7 6 25 18 11 63

8 Brighton 43 11 6 4 35 23 6 6 10 19 25 6 63

9 Tranmere 43 12 4 6 31 18 5 7 9 19 26 6 62

10 Oldham 43 9 7 6 30 20 7 6 8 22 22 10 61

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 Milton Keynes Dons 42 11 5 5 38 16 16 3 2 38 17 43 89

2 Peterborough 43 14 4 4 46 18 12 4 5 33 22 39 86

3 Hereford 41 9 6 5 30 18 14 3 4 35 22 25 78

 

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4 Stockport 42 10 5 6 37 27 13 4 4 31 22 19 78

5 Darlington 43 11 7 4 34 19 10 4 7 28 17 26 74

6 Rochdale 42 9 3 8 32 27 12 6 4 39 25 19 72

7 Wycombe 42 11 6 4 26 14 8 6 7 26 26 12 69

 

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8 Chesterfield 43 9 6 6 40 27 10 4 8 34 26 21 67

Edited by philliggi
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just a quick update on the tables as they stand. important ends only

 

18 Blackpool 43 7 10 4 32 25 4 7 11 24 34 -3 50

19 Southampton 43 8 5 8 23 24 4 9 9 29 44 -16 50

20 Sheff Wed 43 8 5 9 25 24 4 8 9 21 27 -5 49

21 Coventry 43 8 7 7 24 25 5 3 13 21 33 -13 49

The lashers are playing sheff weds on saturday, an away win will do me. I detest blackpool and hope they go down if anything just to piss my boss off,- the we are far better than you because we are in a higher league jibes do my nut in. revenge will be sweet..lashers your honeymoon is over.

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You mean stagnant grounds with stagnant football....oh the irony CJ....and there was me thinking you wanted up and away from that footballing world! One minute your quoting words like "cosmos" on here, the next your spouting that above and predicting gloom about Weds, MK Scum and Posh rising above us. You really are a ray of light.......in a deep space black hole!

 

Didn't you see the bit where I said that I understand why they (like us) need a new stadium? The implication being that I recognise that the game has changed.

 

Which is, of course, what I constantly try to make the 'support the club all the way to the Conference' dinosaurs understand. As well as those who think using the word cosmos is somehow outlandish. Bugger off wi' yer fancy talk and yer book lurrnin' ways...'

 

It can be terribly hard work, but I am prepared to shoulder it.

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This is a one and only time i'm going to say this... but I now agree with your Corpral.... just watching the wendies now... and they are god-awful.. a rag-tag bunch of kids, past it players and loanees.... they are just incapable of doing anything in the last third of the pitch....

 

 

 

Sometimes a club is allowed to slip beyond the point of no return....

 

What must frighten them at Wednesday is the significant fall off in support this season after the fans keeping the faith throughout the tragedy and farce of the past decade...

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Part of me will be sorry if Gillingham go down - had an uncle who was a stout Gills fan and remember going there in 61/2, my furthest away trip at the time.

Yet, there's the famous OldhamGFC, much loved on the old JKLatics site, with his enormous chin and miniscule range of analysis or repartee - and a person who had massive talent for turning people against Gillingham.

He hasn't been heard from (or of) for ages...I wonder why.

Edited by LaticsPete
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Sometimes a club is allowed to slip beyond the point of no return....

 

What must frighten them at Wednesday is the significant fall off in support this season after the fans keeping the faith throughout the tragedy and farce of the past decade...

 

Yet there were 20000 last night, and attendances have been pretty good all season Corp. The average is nearly 21000, last season 23000. In 2004 I think it was about the same. So where do you get this significant decline from ? Over what period? Naturally there will be less going than when they were at the top of the division or in the Prem, but....

 

And what is the "point of no return"? Wolves , when they fell to the old Div 4? they came back.

Man City or Villa in Div 3. They came back.

Clubs that have fallen out of the league snce the 60s have always been those that have usually inhabited the bottom ends of the League. I can think of no example of any other . Even of those that have gone out of the league, only a small number have fallen further than the Conference , effectively a 5th division. Barrow, workington, southport have gone further but oxford, york, torquay, exeter, halifax, carelisle, lincoln , doncaster are not written off!

Aldershot and Accrington - one in the league, one within touching distance.

 

The future of Latics has been dodgy since the 1930s!

Edited by LaticsPete
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There's a good chance I could find myself getting lashed up for free in the Sponsor's box if it's Southampton, so that will do for me! Even though I know it will be a new ground I still shudder thinking of Colchester, to me it will always mean a leaking roof, no pies and a dour depressing game with a referree straight out of Clown School.

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Part of me will be sorry if Gillingham go down - had an uncle who was a stout Gills fan and remember going there in 61/2, my furthest away trip at the time.

Yet, there's the famous OldhamGFC, much loved on the old JKLatics site, with his enormous chin and miniscule range of analysis or repartee - and a person who had massive talent for turning people against Gillingham.

He hasn't been heard from (or of) for ages...I wonder why.

Haha....I'd forgotten about him! Made the Tranny lot look tame and sane. That was another prediction I had at the start of this season that they were nailed on to go down...would love to find a few old posts from JK, but they'll be gone in the ether now. However, for every prediction that's right there's a gash one....I actually thought Vale might be some sort of dark horse this season. Turns out, it's a horse that's being put down! :grin:

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Yet there were 20000 last night, and attendances have been pretty good all season Corp. The average is nearly 21000, last season 23000. In 2004 I think it was about the same. So where do you get this significant decline from ? Over what period? Naturally there will be less going than when they were at the top of the division or in the Prem, but....

 

And what is the "point of no return"? Wolves , when they fell to the old Div 4? they came back.

Man City or Villa in Div 3. They came back.

Clubs that have fallen out of the league snce the 60s have always been those that have usually inhabited the bottom ends of the League. I can think of no example of any other . Even of those that have gone out of the league, only a small number have fallen further than the Conference , effectively a 5th division. Barrow, workington, southport have gone further but oxford, york, torquay, exeter, halifax, carelisle, lincoln , doncaster are not written off!

Aldershot and Accrington - one in the league, one within touching distance.

 

The future of Latics has been dodgy since the 1930s!

 

 

 

If the average is 21,000 it is still significantly less than they have been used to up until this season. Also, in this campaign they have had a number of 17,000 and 18,000 gates for the first time. Probably worst of all, their average has now slipped considerably below than that of their rivals across the city.

 

20,000 is actually poor for the pretenders to being the leading club in the country's fifth largest city, no matter what the division.

 

The point of no return is reached when a club loses the ability, due to a combination of circumstances, some of them not of its own making, to recover lost status in the game. I suspect that both Wolves and Wednesday fall into this category of club, City probably not, even if the vast changes in the game since the 1990s weigh against them.

 

The future of Latics was far from dodgy sixteen or so years ago. Unfortunately, the club blew its historic chance.

 

It matters little that few clubs tend to fall further than the conference when you consider that there is probably no long-term future for professional football below the level of the second tier (except, perhaps, in the form of a breakaway league comprising the bigger clubs.)

Edited by Corporal_Jones
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If the average is 21,000 it is still significantly less than they have been used to up until this season. Also, in this campaign they have had a number of 17,000 and 18,000 gates for the first time. Probably worst of all, their average has now slipped considerably below than that of their rivals across the city.

 

20,000 is actually poor for the pretenders to being the leading club in the country's fifth largest city, no matter what the division.

 

The point of no return is reached when a club loses the ability, due to a combination of circumstances, some of them not of its own making, to recover lost status in the game. I suspect that both Wolves and Wednesday fall into this category of club, City probably not, even if the vast changes in the game since the 1990s weigh against them.

 

The future of Latics was far from dodgy sixteen or so years ago. Unfortunately, the club blew its historic chance.

 

It matters little that few clubs tend to fall further than the conference when you consider that there is probably no long-term future for professional football below the level of the second tier (except, perhaps, in the form of a breakaway league comprising the bigger clubs.)

 

As always Corp you twist and turn but won't accept rational argument! Look at the average gates for yourself - I've given you the figures above. And averages normally mean some below !

 

And this point of no return. So Latics are already past it? Must be because we were a top club in the 1910 -15 period.

And do some proper research on Latics history. Other than a few short years we have been at risk. You won't remember - but I do - the threat of extinction in 1960. The 3000 gates in the old 2nd division etc.

Edited by LaticsPete
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As always Corp you twist and turn but won't accept rational argument! Look at the average gates for yourself - I've given you the figures above. And averages normally mean some below !

 

And this point of no return. So Latics are already past it? Must be because we were a top club in the 1910 -15 period.

And do some proper research on Latics history. Other than a few short years we have been at risk. You won't remember - but I do - the threat of extinction in 1960. The 3000 gates in the old 2nd division etc.

 

 

 

I never disputed the Wednesday average. You will find the 17-18,000 gates I referred to in this season's Wednesday fixtures though, and I pointed out that this was something new and no doubt worrying for them. It is why their average is lower this year than for some time, which is clearly because of a sense of hopelessness on the part of a section of their hardcore-people who have remained regulars throughout the past dark decade for them.

 

It depends what you mean by past it. You will know from recent debates that my estimation is that getting bogged down in the lower divisions has seen us shrink in stature as a club, which is why many on here have accepted that we can no longer compete with clubs historically smaller than we are. Promotion remains a pipe dream. As I said, the point of no return comes when a club no longer has a realistic chance of recovering a stature it once held in the game. I doubt if we will recover the modest stature we held during the long period when we were a comfortably established second-tier club. I never talked about threats of extinction; I merely pointed out that the club's historic chance to significantly grow further in stature was wasted by the failure to capitalise on the Premier League days. Where the future for the club lies remains highly uncertain.

Edited by Corporal_Jones
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The 3000 gates in the old 2nd division etc.

 

 

The comparison between gates then and now is largely irrelevant. Everybody's crowds were lower during the 1980s. Even ManUre were down to 38-40,000 at times. The entire nature of following football has altered drastically since those days.

 

The point is that the last ten years has seen us suffering low crowds and lack of interest in the town at the very time when football has boomed as never before in the top two divisions, as well as for certain fortunate clubs below that level. This is why we are bogged down where we are: our ability to compete has been curtailed.

Edited by Corporal_Jones
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The comparison between gates then and now is largely irrelevant. Everybody's crowds were lower during the 1980s. Even ManUre were down to 38-40,000 at times. The entire nature of following football has altered drastically since those days.

 

Actually manure had a gate of around 27,000 for a midweek league game against the wombles in the late 1980's :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

and we had a home gate of 2,800 for a then division 2 game against Charlton in Jimmy Frizz's last season. :angry:

 

 

So Corporal does that mean that our gates have gone up or down or, making allowances for the fact that "Everybody's crowds were lower during the 1980s" and the fact we were in 1 league higher at the time, we have stayed the same?

 

Just wondering like. :wink:

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Actually manure had a gate of around 27,000 for a midweek league game against the wombles in the late 1980's :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

and we had a home gate of 2,800 for a then division 2 game against Charlton in Jimmy Frizz's last season. :angry:

So Corporal does that mean that our gates have gone up or down or, making allowances for the fact that "Everybody's crowds were lower during the 1980s" and the fact we were in 1 league higher at the time, we have stayed the same?

 

Just wondering like. :wink:

 

 

 

 

A more relevant question would be have our gates gone up or down since we lost our Premier and then second-tier status?

 

2,800 wasn't the norm for us in those days but the nadir. As I said, crowds were low right across the board by the mid-late eighties. In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier crowds were considerably higher than at present-and this at a time when attendances were still quite a bit lower than they've been in the top two divisions since the early-mid 1990s.

Edited by Corporal_Jones
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A more relevant question would be have our gates gone up or down since we lost our Premier and then second-tier status?

 

2,800 wasn't the norm for us in those days but the nadir. As I said, crowds were low right across the board by the mid-late eighties. In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier crowds were considerably higher than at present-and this at a time when attendances were still quite a bit lower than they've been in the top two divisions since the early-mid 1990s.

 

Yep, your right crowds were higher.

 

We had just retured to the 2nd tier of English football after a 20 year absence, the team under Jimmy Frizz were playing cracking football with 2 wingers, McVitie & Groves, had gone on a run winning 10 consecutive league matches, had a good cup run culminating in a 4th round game at BP against top tier (I think) Burnley and were coming up against what at the time were massive teams only recently out of the top tier and with great recent traditions, the llikes of your Sheffield Wednesdays and Sunderlands etc who brought with them followings of 4,000.

 

Yet despite all that success including the 2 promotions in 1970 & 1974, the flair football and the "fantasy" opposition we still only averaged 10K home supporters that season at a time when the admission to the Chaddy end was 40p (yes thats forty pence for you young uns) The following season we averaged less than 8k home fans with crowds dropping season on season until Frizz was replaced with Royle in 1982. That last season of Sir Jimmy saw crowds drop off drastically in the 2nd half of the season after such a promising start was dreadfully affected by the untimely death of our then England coach Bill Taylor.

 

Whilst 2,800 was not the norm for the season, it certainly was at the seasons end when without the away support when we played Derby, our home crowds were down at that level. Im sure if you get the records out you will find I am correct.

 

What changed the alarming drop in attendances was the change of manager and style of football allied to the short term success that brought before finances came to bite us on the bum. That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.

 

One final point. You state "In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier crowds were considerably higher than at present-and this at a time when attendances were still quite a bit lower than they've been in the top two divisions since the early-mid 1990s." Well (1) We were in a bloody higher division and (2) away followings were quite often brilliant creating an improved and enjoyable atmosphere in the ground. So Sunderland (4,000 fans in the uncovered Rocky) was 5 million times better than Bournemouth (80 odd in the accoustically improved covered Rocky) (3) How many of those seasons "In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier" were actually higher in terms of home support than they are now and in relation to cost then and now, how much cheaper was it to attend games then, allowing for inflation and quoting like for like? (4) What were average home attendances in years 5-11 of that "long period in the second tier" compared to years 5-11 in this period in the third tier?

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Harry

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Yep, your right crowds were higher.

 

We had just retured to the 2nd tier of English football after a 20 year absence, the team under Jimmy Frizz were playing cracking football with 2 wingers, McVitie & Groves, had gone on a run winning 10 consecutive league matches, had a good cup run culminating in a 4th round game at BP against top tier (I think) Burnley and were coming up against what at the time were massive teams only recently out of the top tier and with great recent traditions, the llikes of your Sheffield Wednesdays and Sunderlands etc who brought with them followings of 4,000.

 

Yet despite all that success including the 2 promotions in 1970 & 1974, the flair football and the "fantasy" opposition we still only averaged 10K home supporters that season at a time when the admission to the Chaddy end was 40p (yes thats forty pence for you young uns) The following season we averaged less than 8k home fans with crowds dropping season on season until Frizz was replaced with Royle in 1982. That last season of Sir Jimmy saw crowds drop off drastically in the 2nd half of the season after such a promising start was dreadfully affected by the untimely death of our then England coach Bill Taylor.

 

Whilst 2,800 was not the norm for the season, it certainly was at the seasons end when without the away support when we played Derby, our home crowds were down at that level. Im sure if you get the records out you will find I am correct.

 

What changed the alarming drop in attendances was the change of manager and style of football allied to the short term success that brought before finances came to bite us on the bum. That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.

 

One final point. You state "In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier crowds were considerably higher than at present-and this at a time when attendances were still quite a bit lower than they've been in the top two divisions since the early-mid 1990s." Well (1) We were in a bloody higher division and (2) away followings were quite often brilliant creating an improved and enjoyable atmosphere in the ground. So Sunderland (4,000 fans in the uncovered Rocky) was 5 million times better than Bournemouth (80 odd in the accoustically improved covered Rocky) (3) How many of those seasons "In the earlier part of our long period in the second tier" were actually higher in terms of home support than they are now and in relation to cost then and now, how much cheaper was it to attend games then, allowing for inflation and quoting like for like? (4) What were average home attendances in years 5-11 of that "long period in the second tier" compared to years 5-11 in this period in the third tier?

 

Cheers,

Harry

 

 

 

I don't see that the point about home support in relation to prices etc etc is all that relevant when, as already observed, crowds in general were lower. Higher up than us, City, for example, could draw 50-60,000 for a big game and then be down to 29,000 for a humdrum fixture the following week. We would get 26,000 for the above-mentioned Burnley game or the derby with United in old Division Two, and then be back to the usual 10,000 the following week. It was similar for nearly every club, at whatever level (except the real minnows), despite the low admission fees.

 

As for away followings, well, yes, in a higher divsion we will encounter more clubs with big followings. Which is all to the good: it's all money in the BP coffers.

 

When debating the meaning of crowd figures, what you say here is the only thing that really counts: 'That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.'

 

A lesson for today there somewhere, I think. Try telling that to some on here though...

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I don't see that the point about home support in relation to prices etc etc is all that relevant when, as already observed, crowds in general were lower. Higher up than us, City, for example, could draw 50-60,000 for a big game and then be down to 29,000 for a humdrum fixture the following week. We would get 26,000 for the above-mentioned Burnley game or the derby with United in old Division Two, and then be back to the usual 10,000 the following week. It was similar for nearly every club, at whatever level (except the real minnows), despite the low admission fees.

 

As for away followings, well, yes, in a higher divsion we will encounter more clubs with big followings. Which is all to the good: it's all money in the BP coffers.

 

When debating the meaning of crowd figures, what you say here is the only thing that really counts: 'That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.'

 

A lesson for today there somewhere, I think. Try telling that to some on here though...

 

I know you always want to have the last word in these debates corporal and I really dont want to be going on any further about this so I will make this my last post on the topic and give you a chance to post last as usual :grin:

 

You say "I don't see that the point about home support in relation to prices etc etc is all that relevant when, as already observed, crowds in general were lower." well price does have a bearing on home support. I refer in my earlier post to our 1st season in tier 2 in 1974/75 when the average home attendance was around the 10K and it cost 40 pence to go in the Chaddy and that the following season attendances dropped to about £8K. Well one of the main reasons for that drop was pricing. Prices went up to 65 pence and the 1st home game saw an attendance of around 6,500 including away fans. So yes it is relevant.

 

You say "When debating the meaning of crowd figures, what you say here is the only thing that really counts: 'That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.' Nice to see we agree on something then :wink:

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I know you always want to have the last word in these debates corporal and I really dont want to be going on any further about this so I will make this my last post on the topic and give you a chance to post last as usual :grin:

 

You say "I don't see that the point about home support in relation to prices etc etc is all that relevant when, as already observed, crowds in general were lower." well price does have a bearing on home support. I refer in my earlier post to our 1st season in tier 2 in 1974/75 when the average home attendance was around the 10K and it cost 40 pence to go in the Chaddy and that the following season attendances dropped to about £8K. Well one of the main reasons for that drop was pricing. Prices went up to 65 pence and the 1st home game saw an attendance of around 6,500 including away fans. So yes it is relevant.

 

You say "When debating the meaning of crowd figures, what you say here is the only thing that really counts: 'That season Royle invigorated the team he had inherited and got us challenging and lo & behold attendances rose. No different to any other scenario over the last 20 years or so. The team struggles or fails to make progress, attendances go down. The team is successful or challenging, attendances go up.' Nice to see we agree on something then :wink:

 

 

 

Yes we do agree on the only thing that really counts.

 

How can I not have the last word when somebody comes on and adds comment that continues the debate, however?

 

I was referring to the difference in prices between then and now, as I suspect you are aware. The point is that the whole nature of football has changed, from the attitude of the fans to the money paid to the players they watch. Nowhere is this changed nature better illustrated than in the way people viewed a hike in prices (I can actually remember my dad threatening to stop going to BP when prices hit the 80p mark); some fans still refuse to pay what they view as an unjustifiable price rise, but the boom years of the 1990s and 2000's has coincided with both prices and players' wages going through the ceiling. Neither bears any relation to what existed in the period we're talking about, yet crowds have, at least in the top two divisions, been consistently higher than ever before. As noted above, fans were generally more casual in those days, attending when they fancied the game, for whatever reason, and staying away if not. There always was an attend-no-matter-what hardcore at every club but the contemporary sense that failure to attend on a regular enough basis and the club's ability to compete, or even its existence is threatened, was largely absent, rightly or wrongly. I don't therefore think that direct comparisons between the two seperate periods tell the whole story.

Edited by Corporal_Jones
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