Atmosphere - middle class fan

[boboafc]

http://www.oldham.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=120065

Sit Down, Shut Up!

 

 

 

Club Officials call for quiet

 

Wouldn't it be amazing if every one of your beloved club's home games gave you that feeling of being proud of your club's fans for the magnitude of their support?

 

This season, with a stand knocked down at Boundary Park, many believed that we could create the kind of atmosphere that the lads would be proud of as singing sections became located behind both nets.

 

The game against Milwall saw Boundary Park providing a great atmosphere with the Rochdale Road End hosting both sets of fans and one of the most entertaining games of football many are likely to see this season. However after only one home game of the season, we've been told to sit down and shut up!

 

Club Officials have come out and told fans to basically kill the atmosphere, claiming it draws complaints. They neither want standing or swearing at the games from now on as it is driving new, younger fans away from the club. Now I believe the club is right to target a younger demographic but, between the ages of 6-12, would you rather watch mediocre, third tier football in somber, library-esque surroundings or go watch some of the world's finest talent down the road in the greedy league?

 

The answer for me would be third tier football everytime, but kids don't think like that. The only way to draw a younger generation of Latics fans in, is to get Boundary Park rocking like it hasn't in years.

 

The football doesn't merit the £20 a game ticket but a fuller package involving passion, excitement and belief may just bring the fans back.

 

As for the atmosphere driving fans away, I don't recall them complaining on a cold Tuesday night away at Forest. Get your priorities sorted:

 

Let's get the football spirit back!

[Diego_Sideburns]

I graciously accept your humiliating climbdown.

Can't agree with that in regards to working class - there are lots of "working class" jobs that are highly skilled and well paid.

 

If you are dependent on work, or work-related pension, in order to live more comfortably than those who are either unable to work; unwilling to work or

on income support, then you are working class.

[oafc0000]

Mechanic, plumber, any number of specialists in heavy industry, various within construction just off the top of my head. I'd be glad to swap my renumeration package for being a Business Analyst for what a Tube driver is on.

 

Yes, your falling into the trap of trying to fit modern day society into the rules of the past. Your understanding of what the word skilled and unskilled mean is also blured.

 

While many mechanics and plumber may find it insulting, these are not "skilled" works by the definition of a class based society. Skilled work is work requiring a certain level of education to either access it or to fullfill thejob. Through history this related to obtaining degrees (although it isnt as striaght forward as that ... aka building your own business).

 

Skilled work isnt a simple case of saying I dont know how to do it so it is skilled. For example I havent got a clue on how to operator a cash till. And it takes some amount of training to learn to do it. But it certainly isnt "Skilled work". This term can be carried up to any job until a eduction level of degree (and in the past college) is required before you can access it. Even earning accrditations in your field dosent qauliie something as skilled work, its the entry path the usally detrmines it.

 

Like I said, we no longer live in a class based society for many reasons. But a plumber is certainly a working class person when applied to the old rules of class. While a plumber can earn alot the other two cement him into the class (unskilled, low education). Now if he owned a plumbing firm and employed other people. That would make him a merhant and would put him into a middle class bracket. As two of the tests have been passed.

 

When class systems used to be correct was when education, occupation, and income all went hand in hand. For example, a bakers son couldnt afford to get educated and so was then set for a life of doing unskilled low paid work. This is far from the truth today and the class based society started to die once this country started offering education to all.....

Edited August 15, 2008 by oafc0000

[leeslover]

If you are dependent on work, or work-related pension, in order to live more comfortably than those who are either unable to work; unwilling to work or

on income support, then you are working class.

Eh? Doesn't that mean anyone who doesn't have an independant income, like a family trust fund? A City banker on £10m bonuses is only better off than someone on the dole because he works.

[leeslover]

Yes, your falling into the trap of trying to fit modern day society into the rules of the past. Your understanding of what the word skilled and unskilled mean is also blured.

 

While many mechanics and plumber may find it insulting, these are not "skilled" works by the definition of a class based society. Skilled work is work requiring a certain level of education to either access it or to fullfill thejob. Through history this related to obtaining degrees.

 

Skilled work isnt a simple case of saying I dont know how to do it so it is skilled. For example I havent got a clue on how to operator a cash till. And it takes some amount of training to learn to do it. But it certainly isnt "Skilled work". This term can be carried up to any job until a eduction level of degree (and in the past college) is required before you can access it. Even earning accrditations in your field dosent qauliie something as skilled work, its the entry path the usally detrmines it.

 

Like I said, we no longer live in a class based society for many reasons. But a plumber is certainly a working class person when applied to the old rules of class. While a plumber can earn alot the other two cement him into the class. Now if he owned a plumbing firm and employed other people. That would make him a merhant and would put him into a middle class bracket. As two of the tests have been passed.

Oh my god.

 

There are two types of manual job - skilled, and unskilled. Bricklaying is a skilled job, carrying away rubble isn't. Being a technician in a factory is a skilled job, sweeping the floor around him isn't. Glad you realise that people would be insulted to be told that they can't have a skilled job without having a degree, because you are right, they would be.

 

Class, if you want to se it as a way of grouping people, is actually a theory about identifying your interests as being in common with people in a similar economic situation as yourself.

[Diego_Sideburns]

Eh? Doesn't that mean anyone who doesn't have an independant income], like a family trust fund? A City banker on £10m bonuses is only better off than someone on the dole because he works.

 

The people you describe are not dependant on work to live more comfortably than those whom I described. They have obtained enough funds to have all the trappings of the middle class.

[leeslover]

The people you describe are not dependant on work to live more comfortably than those whom I described. They have obtained enough funds to have all the trappings of the middle class.

But if they stopped working they wouldn't for very long. Perhaps the multimillionaire banker was a bad example, but a solicitor on £60k with a big mortgage and two kids has to work, or he would soon be losing his middle class trappings.

[boboafc]

i remember that roy keane said something about the middle class who go to matches ,but not to watch football ,only to eat prawn sandwich;s , long gone the fan who went to a match and eat a pie and drink hot bovil

THE ONE WITH THE PRAWN SANDWICH:

Keane hits out at sections of United's support in the wake of what he felt was a dire atmosphere in the club's Champions League clash with Dynamo Kiev in 2000. "Sometimes you wonder, do they understand the game of football?" he splutters. "We're 1-0 up, then there are one or two stray passes and they're getting on players' backs. It's just not on. At the end of the day they need to get behind the team. Away from home our fans are fantastic, I'd call them the hardcore fans. But at home they have a few drinks and probably the prawn sandwiches, and they don't realise what's going on out on the pitch. I don't think some of the people who come to Old Trafford can spell 'football', never mind understand it."

ps sorry about the foul language here (old trafford united etc) Edited August 15, 2008 by boboafc

[oafc0000]

There are two types of manual job - skilled, and unskilled.

 

Thats a modern day way of thinking and not a class based society way of thinking. A upper and middle class people would view manual work as unskilled. You wouldnt be required to hold formal education of a certain level to do those jobs through history. A bricklayer is a great example. You dont need formal education to learn how to do it. Just like a plumber... Just like a carpenter....

 

Glad you realise that people would be insulted to be told that they can't have a skilled job without having a degree, because you are right, they would be.

 

It is a cast iron truth though..... People are easily offended...... They might have learnt a skill but it isnt "skilled" work unforutantly in class based society... Thats just a fact!

 

Class, if you want to se it as a way of grouping people, is actually a theory about identifying your interests as being in common with people in a similar economic situation as yourself.

 

Thats a bad decription.....

 

 

 

 

 

Again, if your trying to fit the modern world into a class base then you will fail.... Unless you developed a class structure with about 15 levels in it....at least!!!

Edited August 15, 2008 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

But if they stopped working they wouldn't for very long. Perhaps the multimillionaire banker was a bad example, but a solicitor on £60k with a big mortgage and two kids has to work, or he would soon be losing his middle class trappings.

 

What makes a solictor middle class? His house? His car ? His bank statement ? no no no

 

Its his education leavel.....level of pay....and his skilled work....

 

You can be middle class and drive a skoda and live in a tiny house....

[jsslatic]

It seems to me that most people who are clearly middle class, and I'd concur with the definitions put forward by OS and 0000, but claim they are working class are simply harping back to their parents or grandparents days...it's part of their identity and history and they don't want to lose it. The thing is, times have changed and the country has become wealthier and more prosperous...living standards are much higher and most are better paid than they used to be, and are 'middle class'. There are some though who are proud of their working class backgrounds and don't want to lose them.

 

That in itself is understandable, but a plumber nowadays is middle class - they earn a much better crust than they used to and are able to own more and provide more for themselves and their families. Their profession is, historically, working class...but in the modern day that is no longer the case.

[OldhamSheridan]

What makes a solictor middle class? His house? His car ? His bank statement ? no no no

 

Its his education leavel.....level of pay....and his skilled work....

 

You can be middle class and drive a skoda and live in a tiny house....

 

It's hard to put someone in a class, but you are all wrong.

 

It's:

 

Upper Class: Poncey la-de-da who earns more than me who I don't like, or someone who I do like who has millions.

Middle Class: Me and people I don't dislike who aren't Midas rich or biblically poor

Lower Class: Anyone I don't like who isn't very rich, or someone who I don't meet as I don't shop at those shops.

 

All the rest is just made up academic rubbish.

[Diego_Sideburns]

But if they stopped working they wouldn't for very long. Perhaps the multimillionaire banker was a bad example, but a solicitor on £60k with a big mortgage and two kids has to work, or he would soon be losing his middle class trappings.

 

A solicitor who has to work to maintain his expensive lifestyle is still working class. The middle class are able to play golf instead of working and still able to live comfortably with the trappings which the soilictor is working to retain.

[jsslatic]

A solicitor who has to work to maintain his expensive lifestyle is still working class. The middle class are able to play golf instead of working and still able to live comfortably with the trappings which the soilictor is working to retain.

 

So a binman who lives by himself and eats KwikSave meals for one, living comfortably within his means is middle class, but the professional on a good wage, with lavish expenditure is working class?

 

Financial management or thriftiness can not define class.

[Diego_Sideburns]

So a binman who lives by himself and eats KwikSave meals for one, living comfortably within his means is middle class, but the professional on a good wage, with lavish expenditure is working class?

 

Financial management or thriftiness can not define class.

 

If the binman stopped working, would he be able to maintain his non-lavish lifestyle? If not, he's working class.

 

If the professional has chosen a lavish lifestyle, which is dependant on continuing to work, he's working class.

[oafc0000]

If the binman stopped working, would he be able to maintain his non-lavish lifestyle? If not, he's working class.

 

If the professional has chosen a lavish lifestyle, which is dependant on continuing to work, he's working class.

 

You seem to be making this up as you go along... I have never heard it descirbed in this manner before? Do you have any links etc to back up your opinion ?

[jsslatic]

If the binman stopped working, would he be able to maintain his non-lavish lifestyle? If not, he's working class.

 

If he eats nothing but 50p ready meals and has few possessions apart from the essentials, lives well within his means (but only because he spends so little, with a thus fairly low standard of living but without serious financial worries)...then he may be able to maintain his non-lavish lifestyle after a certain amount of time. I wouldn't say that person was middle class.

[jimsleftfoot]

It's hard to put someone in a class, but you are all wrong.

 

It's:

 

Upper Class: Poncey la-de-da who earns more than me who I don't like, or someone who I do like who has millions.

Middle Class: Me and people I don't dislike who aren't Midas rich or biblically poor

Lower Class: Anyone I don't like who isn't very rich, or someone who I don't meet as I don't shop at those shops.

 

All the rest is just made up academic rubbish.

 

Talking about Academic rubbish:

 

The working/middle/upper class structure is outdated and only really looks at how the money is earned and how much they earn. The more commonly recognised way of classing people is to look at their socio-economic status i.e. how they both earn and use there money (how they spend their free time).

 

One example of this is that many people now choose jobs that improve that may not pay as well but improve the balance between work and their social lives. Other people may work 7 days a week, have little social life but earn a fortune.

[Diego_Sideburns]

You seem to be making this up as you go along... I have never heard it descirbed in this manner before? Do you have any links etc to back up your opinion ?

 

I suspect you are seeking the source of my text book theories to compare with what you have been taught. No text book, simply a lifetime of experience.

[Diego_Sideburns]

If he eats nothing but 50p ready meals and has few possessions apart from the essentials, lives well within his means (but only because he spends so little, with a thus fairly low standard of living but without serious financial worries)...then he may be able to maintain his non-lavish lifestyle after a certain amount of time. I wouldn't say that person was middle class.

 

This smacks of desperation now - you seem to have found a modern-day hermit for comparison purposes.

[oafc0000]

I suspect you are seeking the source of my text book theories to compare with what you have been taught. No text book, simply a lifetime of experience.

 

 

What your trying to do is change the meaning behind a term

 

Britian use to be a very simple place. It was in fact very easy to divde the country up into three social classes. Upper, Middle and Lower... And people rarely moved between the classes...

 

This all went out of the window in the early 1900's Outbreak of war, the fall of the empire and construction of fair trade in europe and free state education all blew the class divides way apart...

 

These are historical facts And not just text book theories

 

In this day and age, the dippy media throw words around like upper, middle and lower and try to make out they have some meaning in the moder world. They don't.... And anyone who tries to redefine what the word "working class" is just as bad.... What people need to do is come up with a new set of terms to describe modern day society but they wont because society is a FAR more complicated thing than ever before!!! and its much more simple to cram people into three bands which have little meaning

 

Britian is far more complex than three class brands

Edited August 15, 2008 by oafc0000

[leeslover]

(leeslover @ Aug 15 2008, 12:10 PM)

Class, if you want to se it as a way of grouping people, is actually a theory about identifying your interests as being in common with people in a similar economic situation as yourself.

 

 

Thats a bad decription.....

You place a high level of importance on edjukashun, yet ignore a fairly orthodox definition of a political paradigm given to you by someone with a rather prestigious Masters degree in Political Philosophy. I had to wait 11 years but I knew it would come in handy sooner or later

[OldhamSheridan]

You place a high level of importance on edjukashun, yet ignore a fairly orthodox definition of a political paradigm given to you by someone with a rather prestigious Masters degree in Political Philosophy. I had to wait 11 years but I knew it would come in handy sooner or later

 

If you didn't sit around in togas putting your forefinger and thumb to your chin in thought whilst growing bushy beards in lectures I am going to be desperately disappointed.

Edited August 15, 2008 by OldhamSheridan

[beag_teeets]

Cleese:

(In bowler hat, black jacket and pinstriped trousers) I look down on him (Indicates Barker) because I am upper-class.

Barker:

(Pork-pie hat and raincoat) I look up to him (Cleese) because he is upper-class; but I look down on him (Corbett) because he is lower-class. I am middle-class

Corbett:

(Cloth cap and muffler) I know my place. I look up to them both. But I don't look up to him (Barker) as much as I look up to him (Cleese), because he has got innate breeding.

Cleese:

I have got innate breeding, but I have not got any money. So sometimes I look up (bends knees, does so) to him (Barker).

Barker:

I still look up to him (Cleese) because although I have money, I am vulgar. But I am not as vulgar as him (Corbett) so I still look down on him (Corbett).

Corbett:

I know my place. I look up to them both; but while I am poor, I am honest, industrious and trustworthy. Had I the inclination, I could look down on them. But I don't.

Barker:

We all know our place, but what do we get out of it?

Cleese:

I get a feeling of superiority over them.

Barker:

I get a feeling of inferiority from him, (Cleese), but a feeling of superiority over him (Corbett).

Corbett:

I get a pain in the back of my neck.

[oafc0000]

You place a high level of importance on edjukashun, yet ignore a fairly orthodox definition of a political paradigm given to you by someone with a rather prestigious Masters degree in Political Philosophy. I had to wait 11 years but I knew it would come in handy sooner or later

 

I would of thought you could of come up with a better description considering your credentials.... Im surprisd you hold a masters with the level of knowledge you are displaying

Edited August 15, 2008 by oafc0000