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Manchester Congestion Charge Referendum


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Congestion Charge Referendum  

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    • Yes
      60
    • No
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Bit personal...not at all... Your brought your sister into the debate... Dont do that unless you want her to become the centre of that debate....

 

How far from school does your sister live ?

 

Worse case... Drive to a yellow bus pick up point outside of the congestion charge zone.... Problem solved...

http://www.yellowschoolbus.info

 

 

if that system was up and running and there was a suitable drop-off/pick up point nearby, then yes it offers a good solution if the congestion charge was brought in!

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if that system was up and running and there was a suitable drop-off/pick up point nearby, then yes it offers a good solution if the congestion charge was brought in!

 

Yup... The yellow bus system is a great thing.. The 180 routes will be funded by the charge... I would hope more are funded out of the normal pot though...

 

Im defending the charge here because alot of people are pointing out issues which in fact are not issues if people do there research...

Edited by oafc0000
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So... You can cause what in effect will be many millions of individual economic decisions to be altered, which you want - as you want behaviour to change on a large scale via forcing people to alter their behaviour through a large taxation policy - yet you reckon you can make it work out so that nothing will change much for anybody.

 

I never said that....

 

Things will change...but people will adapt and come through...

 

For example, the poster who just said his sister wouldnt be able to get to school.... When in fact thanks to extension of the yellow bus scheme...she can...

 

 

Your still yet to show any real area a business will be effected enough to cause real problems ....

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So what exactly are these public transport improvements I'm supposed to be getting in return for this congestion charge then? The metrolink is going to run along exactly the same route as the ordinary trains do presently, except it's going to take longer, it's going to cost more and the carriages will seat less people. So forgive me if I don't see that as an improvement.

 

Not that it should really be much of an issue in this referendum because if anybody does still think the metrolink is a wonderful idea they would do well to note that the extension of it to Oldham is not dependent upon the congestion charge being introduced, it is happening regardless. But they don't want you to know that do they, they'd much rather scare you in to voting their plans through. The only bit of the metrolink in Oldham that's dependent on the congestion charge is a bit of a branch coming off the main line to take you to Union Street. Well I live nearer to mumps than Union Street so that's of no use to me.

 

So I ask again, what improvements? Could it be buses perhaps? Well I live a 10 minute walk from a stop at which I can catch a bus to Manchester every 10 minutes, so unless these so called transport improvements are going to get the bus to come and pick me up on the end of my street then I fail to see what I'm going to gain by voting for this thing.

 

It's all just another cash cow. The difficulty and expense associated with parking in central Manchester means that the majority of people who can get there relatively easily by public transport are already doing so. They also know that those for whom it presents a difficulty will continue to drive even after the charge is introduced. The reduction in traffic will be small, but they know that and they know it'll mean they cream in more cash and that's what it's really all about.

 

And is anybody really buying it when they say they won't introduce the charge till 80% of these so called public transport improvements are finished. Quite aside from the fact that I've yet to see any evidence of what they are going to improve, does anybody honestly believe that 80% of it will be finished by the date that the charge is supposed to be introduced? And when it isn't does anybody honestly believe that they will put the date back till it is? Will they hell. They'll find some way of worming their way out of it. I mean what constitutes 80% completion anyway? It's a very arbitrary statement, how do you measure it? Well you can bet your life they'll find some system of measuring it that ensures they can bring the charge in on time without half the crap they are promising being built and yes the public will be up in arms and as usual all the moaning will come to nothing, they'll get away with it and carry on. And what then? Does anybody genuinely believe they'll continue to reinvest the money they raise from congestion charging in to public transport? Not a prayer, like Leeslover said, it'll get spent on all kinds of crap.

 

And what about people that work in Hollinwood/Failsworth and live in just about any other part of Oldham. How can you justify charging those poor sods to go to work. Worse still they might not even be going to work. What if somebody living in Werneth wants to pop in to make a bit of breakfast for an elderly relative in Hollinwood before heading to work. It's a journey of a quater of a mile all within the same town and without passing through any town centres, all to do a good deed. And we're going to charge them for the privilege now are we? It defies belief. And what about the Latics fan living in Hollinwood that wants to go and watch us play at Stockport on a Friday night. He lives 100 yards form the M60 but because he happens to be setting off in the evening rush hour and heading away from Manchester to join the motorway he gets charged for it. Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

The congestion charge may not have gone down too badly in London but there you are hard pressed to stand on a street and be any more than 15 minutes walk from a tube station from which you can reach literally any other part of the most populated city in western Europe without having to walk any further than the next platform. What they are proposing in Manchester doesn't even come the tiniest little bit close to that hence all but a small percentage of people lucky enough to live in a well serviced area will continue to need to travel by car. They powers that be know that and all it means to them is tills going ching ching. And speaking of London, at least they only have one charging ring, and very close to the centre at that. Can you imagine the outcry if they'd have had the cheek to introduce a second charging zone that started at the M25!!! No such shame in Greater Manchester though. It's all nothing more than a clever way of justifying a means of raising taxes through the back door.

 

If the public are daft enough to let the wool be pulled over their eyes and vote for this nonesense then we deserve everything we get.

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Your still yet to show any real area a business will be effected enough to cause real problems ....

I don't have to. Businesses and individuals currently organise their travel according to their economic preferences, including time, cost, inconvenience and so on. I do not need to draw up case studies to show that taxing a proportion of those people more money to do their business in Manchester will affect Manchester businesses, and also businesses in the area surrounding Manchester. Even if some of them are forced to adapt to public transport as a consequence of these regulations, they will most likely still be no better off than their were before even in the unlikely event that public transport fills their specific needs (I can't wait till you send your potential clients a bus time table to tell them how to get to your office) but it will in any case be built on the back of companies who are unable to adapt their business to avoid paying it - this being precisely why they will be paying the charge.

 

Shall I send you a pack of crayons with the next reply?

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So what exactly are these public transport improvements I'm supposed to be getting in return for this congestion charge then? The metrolink is going to run along exactly the same route as the ordinary trains do presently, except it's going to take longer, it's going to cost more and the carriages will seat less people. So forgive me if I don't see that as an improvement.

 

Manchester to Oldham currently only has three trains an hour... This will dramatically improve... So the decrease in carriage size will be countred with far

more trams....

 

So I ask again, what improvements? Could it be buses perhaps? Well I live a 10 minute walk from a stop at which I can catch a bus to Manchester every 10 minutes, so unless these so called transport improvements are going to get the bus to come and pick me up on the end of my street then I fail to see what I'm going to gain by voting for this thing.

 

Other people dont currently have it so well... Maybe you should vote yes so others can enjoy what you currently have?

 

It's all just another cash cow. The difficulty and expense associated with parking in central Manchester means that the majority of people who can get there relatively easily by public transport are already doing so.

 

Exactly!! Thats why it need improving!!!!

 

And is anybody really buying it when they say they won't introduce the charge till 80% of these so called public transport improvements are finished.

 

They wont be able to do it BY LAW....

 

And what about people that work in Hollinwood/Failsworth and live in just about any other part of Oldham. How can you justify charging those poor sods to go to work. Worse still they might not even be going to work. What if somebody living in Werneth wants to pop in to make a bit of breakfast for an elderly relative in Hollinwood before heading to work. It's a journey of a quater of a mile all within the same town and without passing through any town centres, all to do a good deed. And we're going to charge them for the privilege now are we? It defies belief. And what about the Latics fan living in Hollinwood that wants to go and watch us play at Stockport on a Friday night. He lives 100 yards form the M60 but because he happens to be setting off in the evening rush hour and heading away from Manchester to join the motorway he gets charged for it. Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

If they contribute to congestion during the "rush hour" then why shouldnt they pay. They could always delay there journey until the charging time are over?? Or go forbid...get the bus ?

 

The congestion charge may not have gone down too badly in London but there you are hard pressed to stand on a street and be any more than 15 minutes walk from a tube station f

 

I doubt the majority of people in Oldham are more than 15 mins walk from a bus stop... many just dont want to walk for 15 mins and then get two buses...

 

If the public are daft enough to let the wool be pulled over their eyes and vote for this nonesense then we deserve everything we get.

 

I would say the same if they didnt vote for it...

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I don't have to.

 

You mean you cant....

 

Businesses and individuals currently organise their travel according to their economic preferences, including time, cost, inconvenience and so on. I do not need to draw up case studies to show that taxing a proportion of those people more money to do their business in Manchester will affect Manchester businesses, and also businesses in the area surrounding Manchester. Even if some of them are forced to adapt to public transport as a consequence of these regulations, they will most likely still be no better off than their were before even in the unlikely event that public transport fills their specific needs (I can't wait till you send your potential clients a bus time table to tell them how to get to your office) but it will in any case be built on the back of companies who are unable to adapt their

business to avoid paying it - this being precisely why they will be paying the charge.

 

:lol:

 

I can tell you have never owned or never will own a business :)

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*which ever you choose

 

Shows how much know about me dosent it :

 

Im a socialist....if im anything...

 

I think you will find that not wanting to pay taxes for the public's wider benefit is far more capitalist :)

 

Or did you mean your capitalist and proud ?

Edited by oafc0000
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1. forcing your personal opinion

 

You keep asking me questions and expecting answers :)

 

Im giving it :) You have free will to ignore it if you want... You can even add me to your ignore list if you want...

 

2. A cost for something that shouldn't be required. Tell me the cost!

 

What democracy isnt required?? I disagree...

Edited by oafc0000
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If I had a vote, which I don't despite living and working closer to the proposed congestion zone than most people in Oldham, I would - reluctantly - vote no.

 

My reason is extremely simple. The "promised" investment in public transport is nowhere near enough, and nowhere near radical enough. And, cynic that I am, I do not trust the government to actually make the full extent of promised investment.

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Shows how much know about me dosent it :

 

Im a socialist....if im anything...

 

I think you will find that not wanting to pay taxes for the public's wider benefit is far more capitalist :)

 

Or did you mean your capitalist and proud ?

 

I'll pay whatever it takes, but not in that way. Take the M6 toll, you have a choice, if you choose to use it you pay, I can live with that. Pay my taxes for sound running of the country, I can live with that. Have to pay to drive to go to Manchester sorry, not on.

 

edit, I do also choose to use public transport to Mcr when it is to my benefit.

Edited by footy68
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If I had a vote, which I don't despite living and working closer to the proposed congestion zone than most people in Oldham, I would - reluctantly - vote no.

 

My reason is extremely simple. The "promised" investment in public transport is nowhere near enough, and nowhere near radical enough. And, cynic that I am, I do not trust the government to actually make the full extent of promised investment.

 

I agree with this a bit... I believe it should of been more...

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I'll pay whatever it takes, but not in that way. Take the M6 toll, you have a choice, if you choose to use it you pay, I can live with that. Pay my taxes for sound running of the country, I can live with that. Have to pay to drive to go to Manchester sorry, not on.

 

Is the bus not a option then ? Or a train ? Or a tram ? :) Change your travel times?

 

I consider all these as choices...

Edited by oafc0000
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Just found this:

 

''There are no new buses from TIF funding, no new trains and no fare reductions.''

 

Is this true?

 

 

The trains are being replaced with the metrolink.. But there will be 62 new trams running every 6 mins.... Compared to the current 3 an hour...

 

There will be new bus routes..

 

 

Metrolink

 

TIF improvements would include:

 

the tram entering the heart of Oldham town centre with new stops at Westwood, Oldham King Street, Oldham Central (Union Street) with a relocated stop at Oldham Mumps

on weekdays, trams would run every six minutes from Union Street to Shaw and Manchester city centre

an extra station at Kingsway Business Park, between Shaw and Rochdale town centre

extensions to Rochdale town centre, Manchester Airport, Ashton-under-Lyne and East Didsbury. Funding has also been earmarked for a potential Trafford Centre extension via the Trafford Park line

62 new trams, 20 miles of additional track and 41 new stops equipped with new ticket machines for ‘Smartcard’ ticketing as well as debit and credit cards

there would be a major expansion of Metrolink across Greater Manchester with the capacity to carry an extra 30,000 passengers in each of the morning and evening peak periods

Bus improvements

 

Examples of proposed changes to buses in Oldham include:

 

Greenfield – Oldham – Manchester increased from two to four buses an hour, during Monday to Saturday daytimes; it will link to the Huddersfield /Diggle/Uppermill service at Grasscroft to give eight buses per hour to Oldham, continuing via Copster Hill to Manchester. Evening and Sunday services increased to every 30 minutes

the existing Shaw – Rushcroft - Buckstones circular service would be increased from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes, Mondays to Saturdays. The service will start earlier, finish later and will additionally operate every 30 minutes on Sunday daytimes to provide a local feeder service for Metrolink at Shaw and Crompton station

the Shaw – Oldham – Middleton – Manchester service would increase to every seven or eight minutes during the day between Oldham and Manchester (every 20 minutes in the evenings and on Sundays)

West Chadderton – Oldham increased from hourly to every 30 minutes during the day, Monday to Saturday. Would start earlier and would be re-routed to serve Royal Oldham Hospital

additional circular (orbital) bus services to connect areas outside the city centre

180 Yellow School Buses would be introduced across Greater Manchester providing customised services to schools, with seats allocated to pupils and drivers dedicated to the service

These are just some examples of proposed bus service and facility improvements, with Greater Manchester seeing an overall increase of 10% to bus services with more services starting earlier, running later in the evening and at weekends.

 

Rail improvements

 

Extra carriages would be added on peak-time trains using Mills Hill and Greenfield. Also additional refurbishment would take place at Greenfield station.

 

To reduce overcrowding, there would be extra rail carriages for services across Greater Manchester with capacity for an additional 2,950 passengers in the three hour morning peak period. This is as well as the additional capacity for 4,100 passengers in the three hour morning peak, which would be funded by the Government without TIF.

Edited by oafc0000
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Shows how much know about me dosent it :

 

Im a socialist....if im anything...

 

I think you will find that not wanting to pay taxes for the public's wider benefit is far more capitalist :)

 

Or did you mean your capitalist and proud ?

I think you will find that there is nothing more capitalist than investing money into an enterprise for the purpose of securing a return on the profits. Or is that me with my weak understanding of political terminology, eh, Mr "Small Businessman?"

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Is the bus not a option then ? Or a train ? Or a tram ? :) Change your travel times?

 

I consider all these as choices...

But the public transport network is nowhere near enough - even with the proposed investment - to provide a viable option for everyone travelling into the zone. It only really serves those people travelling along the major radial routes into the city centre. Which is fine for those people, but no use for the rest. There are many people who live outside the M60, and commute around the M60 to a workplace just inside the zone. A route that simply isn't provided for by public transport.

 

That's the biggest reason why the zone should be nowhere near the proposed size. If it is to exist at all, I believe it should be the inner ring only, to persuade more people who drive into the city centre to use public transport instead. But they couldn't do that, because then they wouldn't have been able to include the transport investment schemes for peripheral places like Oldham. They needed to make it a bigger zone to impact more people to raise more money as a bribe for wider investment that should have been paid for by Government in the first place (maybe using the vast taxes already collected from motorists that aren't spent on transport and infrastructure).

Edited by garcon
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I think you will find that there is nothing more capitalist than investing money into an enterprise for the purpose of securing a return on the profits. Or is that me with my weak understanding of political terminology, eh, Mr "Small Businessman?"

 

:lol:

 

Any money made in "profit" by the government will be returned to the public purse for redistribution... Thats hardly a capitalist idea :lol:

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Manchester to Oldham currently only has three trains an hour... This will dramatically improve... So the decrease in carriage size will be countred with far

more trams....

 

Which will in turn be cancelled out by the longer journey time and the increased cost

 

Other people dont currently have it so well... Maybe you should vote yes so others can enjoy what you currently have?

 

Are you for real? You want me to vote to impose a tax on myself because other people don't live as near to a bus stop? Considering the exceptional business accumen you have demonstrated for us in this thread you are presumably coining it in, maybe you should vote to give some of your money to me because I don't have it so well.

 

Exactly!! Thats why it need improving!!!!

 

Yes, but the improvements they are proposing will scarcely scratch the surface

 

They wont be able to do it BY LAW....

 

Give over will you, they'll blag that no problem. They can spin 80% to make it mean anything they want it to.

 

If they contribute to congestion during the "rush hour" then why shouldnt they pay.

 

How does driving 100 yards to get on a motorway you happen to live right next to contribute to the congestion?

 

They could always delay there journey until the charging time are over??

 

Not if they want to get to work/the match at Stockport on time they can't

 

Or go forbid...get the bus ?

 

Edgeley Park is a 20 minute drive from the M60 junction at Hollinwood. Why should a guy living there have to be prepared to disrupt his life to the extent of it taking about 4 or 5 times as long and 2 or 3 changes of bus to get somewhere (because that's still what it will take even after these so called improvements) when he is getting nothing in return?

 

I doubt the majority of people in Oldham are more than 15 mins walk from a bus stop... many just dont want to walk for 15 mins and then get two buses...

 

A moment ago you were telling me that nobody else in Oldham had it as good as me and now they are all 15 minutes from a bus stop. And again, why should they suffer that extent of disruption when they are getting nothing in return. Like I said in my original post, when they put something in place the like of what is to be found in London then they might have an argument. This proposal is light years away.

 

And incidentally have you sampled the price of buses these days. I tell you what the cost of the petrol used is a hell of a lot cheaper on the vast majority of journeys. Is that what the congestion charge is for then, because we're just having it far too good and there's got to be a stop put to it?

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But the public transport network is nowhere near enough - even with the proposed investment - to provide a viable option for everyone travelling into the zone. It only really serves those people travelling along the major radial routes into the city centre. Which is fine for those people, but no use for the rest. There are many people who live outside the M60, and commute around the M60 to a workplace just inside the zone. A route that simply isn't provided for by public transport.

 

That's the biggest reason why the zone should be nowhere near the proposed size. If it is to exist at all, I believe it should be the inner ring only, to persuade more people who drive into the city centre to use public transport instead. But they couldn't do that, because then they wouldn't have been able to include the transport investment schemes for peripheral places like Oldham. They needed to make it a bigger zone to impact more people to raise more money as a bribe for wider investment that should have been paid for by Government in the first place (maybe using the vast taxes already collected from motorists that aren't spent on transport and infrastructure).

 

I dont agree...

 

I think peoples travel times may well increase (by not driving) but i dont buy the improvements wont have a positive impacts on the majority of peoples travel options...

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I get the part about people dont like standing up on trains and on a bus in rush hour or peak time (but why should motorists pay for that, when it needs doing anyway) but i dont know how many busses iv drove past/ been on that have bin half empty, outside these peak times. so say for example the bus route from my house to manchester that the TIF wants to increase to every 6-7 mins is already half empty when it runs at every 10-12 mins, so whats the point in increasing it?

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