Matt Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I dare say it's happening on both sides, but this has to stop now. A UN-run school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, and at least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 i find israel's stance very hypricritical about all this. the fact also that usa refuses to condem any of this, proves its nothing to do with morals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 did you know that kasham rockets were being fired from it ,at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footy68 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Bob, are you suggesting that terrorist scum hide in Schools? (joking by the way) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 did you know that kasham rockets were being fired from it ,at the time Any evidence to back this up Bob? I find it odd that people would use it to shelter in if rockets were flying out of it. More likely it's untrue propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 its a known fact even in iraq the terrorist hide in schools etc and opened fire on usa and uk troops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) children of hamas .. .. Edited January 6, 2009 by boboafc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 children of hamas .. I'm confused Bob, are you saying that it's justifiable for the Israelis to deliberately target any school just in case it has terrorists in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 remember who started in the first place , and no i am not saying its justfiiable firing on schools , but when hamas hides there and fires rockets into schools the idf have no choice what do you think we can do here just sit back back and let hamas carry on firing rockets into our towns with out doing nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 It has to stop, from both sides... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 It has to stop, from both sides... thats true 100%agree with you there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 'Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us' - Golda Meir. The flattening of a school and the mass death of those inside is a disaster on a colossal scale. Unfortunately, cowardly Hamas hide themselves in schools, near schools, in blocks of flats, near blocks of flats, build police stations next to schools etc. If Hamas want a war which limits civilian casualties, then they could have one...by firing their rockets from the barren lands and country in Gaza where noone lives...not near the places where children and the civilians who elected them as their representatives live. Hamas use their people as human shields - sacrificing them in order to take another few Israeli lives. When Hamas stop firing, the Israelis will stop firing. Until then, Israel is still fully justified in a war of self defence. If Hamas had any desire to minimise civilian loss and the death of Palestinian children, they'd do the right thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 'Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us' - Golda Meir. The flattening of a school and the mass death of those inside is a disaster on a colossal scale. Unfortunately, cowardly Hamas hide themselves in schools, near schools, in blocks of flats, near blocks of flats, build police stations next to schools etc. If Hamas want a war which limits civilian casualties, then they could have one...by firing their rockets from the barren lands and country in Gaza where noone lives...not near the places where children and the civilians who elected them as their representatives live. Hamas use their people as human shields - sacrificing them in order to take another few Israeli lives. When Hamas stop firing, the Israelis will stop firing. Until then, Israel is still fully justified in a war of self defence. If Hamas had any desire to minimise civilian loss and the death of Palestinian children, they'd do the right thing. I don't want to appear anti-semetic but I think I'm going to have to. When Hamas stop firing, Israel will NOT stop firing they will wipe out Hamas. It may have started as a war of self-defence (and that's debatable- judging by the numbers of people that have been killed by these rockets in the time Hamas has been firing them into Israel) but it is NOT a war of self-defence now Israel are the aggressors and are getting away with it. Hamas are going to be the ones acting in self-defense if anything. If it was the other way round the US (and the UK) would be condemming the action and leaping to the defence of poor little Israel. Israel has weapons of mass destruction, but you don't hear Bush bleating on about it or invading the country to stop them being used, because it was the Yanks that gave them the stuff. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and it is impossible to find areas where the 'terrorists' aren't near a school, a hospital etc. because there isn't room. Last time I checked it was good practice to keep the police seperate from the army and the police should have nothing to do with the 'terrorists' so why should it matter where the police station is, the Isrealis better have a good reason for going near it with their American supplied weapons. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Hamas elected Democratically, and I know they have links with terrorists but so did Sinn Fein and loads of other political groups (most terrorist groups have a political arm or link). You can't suddenly decide to kill a whole bunch of people because you don't link their government whom they elected because they're a group with terror links otherwise half of Belfast would be rubble. Destroying a school, killing innocent children just to kill a handful (at most) 'terrorists' strikes me as pretty cowardly. I know the terrorists shouldn't have hid there but where else were they going to hide Israel has virtually flattened their entire country and they are at war. Personally I think this has a lot to do with who is coming into power in 14 days in USA and the Isrealis reckon that Obama will stop giving them as much leeway as Bush because he doesn't have to and they have decided to strike now whilst they can get away with it (from US point of view). This has to stop now for the safety of innocent people in the area, and the side which needs to initiate the stop is the one with the Star of David on its stuff. I'm not saying Hamas isn't in the wrong but Israel IMHO is now much more in the wrong and last time I checked two wrongs don't make a right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 'Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us' - Golda Meir. Isn't that a bit like saying that Israel plans to carry on killing Arab children until their parents accept whatever peace terms Israel sees fit to hand down? Desperate people turn to desperate measures, and the continuation of settlements and land grabs on the West Bank gives moderates no reason to believe that working with the Israelis will ever gain them any measure of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) When Hamas stop firing, Israel will NOT stop firingthats were your wrong as soon as they stop firing at our town the idf will stop firing to , but the only problem is that the hamas will still carry on making tunnels into the sinai desert and bring more and better missles into the gaza strip , , one thing you said that hamas was elected Democratically, thats true , but the president of the Palestinian people does not regonize the hamas goverment and they have their own prime minister of fatach , the hamas is funded by iran and hizbolla who both want to wipe israel of the map , i have a question for , when you go on a bus , or you go to a disco or cafe ,or go shopping or even take your kids to school , does your kids school have a armed guard on duty at the gate th??? , or when you go on a bus you look to see if someone strange gets on ,thinking he or she could be a suicide bomber the answer is no , i know for a fact that no school shopping centre disco etc in the uk does not have a armed gurad on duty , we have to have armed guards in schools on buses , shopping centre etc , because of hamas terroists who are trying to kill anyone here in israel , and we have also a threat in the north from hizbolla too Edited January 6, 2009 by boboafc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 when you go on a bus you look to see if someone strange gets on ,thinking he or she could be a suicide bomber , Couple of years ago I'd have said yes, I look out for stuff - I suppose we should all remain vigilant in the UK. .....because of hamas terroists who are trying to kill anyone here in israel ...and we all know why... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Isn't that a bit like saying that Israel plans to carry on killing Arab children until their parents accept whatever peace terms Israel sees fit to hand down? Desperate people turn to desperate measures, and the continuation of settlements and land grabs on the West Bank gives moderates no reason to believe that working with the Israelis will ever gain them any measure of success. Don't be ridiculous...Israel is not planning to kill Arab children, they are the unfortunate victims of the consequences of their of their parents' actions. Peace would probably have to come largely on Israeli terms. However, this is the (perhaps unfortunate) reality of the situation...and the Palestinians have to decide what would be preferable, a peace treaty without all the concessions they want, or for more of their children to die in crossfire. I know what I'd do. I know what most people in the world would do, too. Rudemedic, you raise a number of points...some I agree with, some I don't. I'm about to set off to go back to Nottingham soon, but will post a full reply later or tomorrow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 ...and we all know why... We know why Al-Quaieda attacked on 9/11, 7/7 etc...doesn't make it right, does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 We know why Al-Quaieda attacked on 9/11, 7/7 etc...doesn't make it right, does it? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 (edited) I don't want to appear anti-semetic but I think I'm going to have to. When Hamas stop firing, Israel will NOT stop firing they will wipe out Hamas. It may have started as a war of self-defence (and that's debatable- judging by the numbers of people that have been killed by these rockets in the time Hamas has been firing them into Israel) but it is NOT a war of self-defence now Israel are the aggressors and are getting away with it. Hamas are going to be the ones acting in self-defense if anything. If it was the other way round the US (and the UK) would be condemming the action and leaping to the defence of poor little Israel. Israel has weapons of mass destruction, but you don't hear Bush bleating on about it or invading the country to stop them being used, because it was the Yanks that gave them the stuff. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and it is impossible to find areas where the 'terrorists' aren't near a school, a hospital etc. because there isn't room. Last time I checked it was good practice to keep the police seperate from the army and the police should have nothing to do with the 'terrorists' so why should it matter where the police station is, the Isrealis better have a good reason for going near it with their American supplied weapons. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but weren't Hamas elected Democratically, and I know they have links with terrorists but so did Sinn Fein and loads of other political groups (most terrorist groups have a political arm or link). You can't suddenly decide to kill a whole bunch of people because you don't link their government whom they elected because they're a group with terror links otherwise half of Belfast would be rubble. Destroying a school, killing innocent children just to kill a handful (at most) 'terrorists' strikes me as pretty cowardly. I know the terrorists shouldn't have hid there but where else were they going to hide Israel has virtually flattened their entire country and they are at war. Personally I think this has a lot to do with who is coming into power in 14 days in USA and the Isrealis reckon that Obama will stop giving them as much leeway as Bush because he doesn't have to and they have decided to strike now whilst they can get away with it (from US point of view). This has to stop now for the safety of innocent people in the area, and the side which needs to initiate the stop is the one with the Star of David on its stuff. I'm not saying Hamas isn't in the wrong but Israel IMHO is now much more in the wrong and last time I checked two wrongs don't make a right. A point you seem to have missed are the concessions that previous Israeli governments have made to the Palestinians (before Hamas took control). Bob will confirm or correct me on this but didn't they pull out of large areas of the "Occupied Homelands" to the dismay of the the hardline Jewish residents before handing back these areas. Edited January 6, 2009 by mikejh45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 so,is all this israeli bombing going to sort the mess out once and for all? doesn't take a simpleton like me to know the answer to that does it? 1,2,4,8,16,32,64,126,252,504,1008,2016,4032,8064...repeat to fade and bang. goodnight everyone,nice knowing you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 i see no one said anything about when russia invaded Georgia last year did they ?2,000 dead and 30,000 homeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 i see no one said anything about when russia invaded Georgia last year did they ?2,000 dead and 30,000 homeless i would love to have done bob,but i was on my jollys at the time. all conflict is wrong,whichever sides are involved,and as much as israel have been on many a recieving end on attacks over the years,israel have given out a fair few...lebanon for example. its all eye for an eye really isn't it. another interesting read... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7805075.stm justified? thing is,there are 2 sides to every arguement,and israel don't exactly come out the angels everytime do they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Don't be ridiculous...Israel is not planning to kill Arab children, they are the unfortunate victims of the consequences of their of their parents' actions. Peace would probably have to come largely on Israeli terms. However, this is the (perhaps unfortunate) reality of the situation...and the Palestinians have to decide what would be preferable, a peace treaty without all the concessions they want, or for more of their children to die in crossfire. I know what I'd do. I know what most people in the world would do, too. I just can't see the moral equivalence you are making - or rather, it seems to me that you aren't actually trying to make one? You rely on pragmatism to justify Israel's policy but expect moral considerations to apply to the Arab side. In effect, we are to take Israel's policies as a given and the Arabs response to that is the only morally relevant factor. If you leave aside this fundamentally untenable position I put it to you that the Israeli children who are hurt by those rockets are every bit as much the unfortunate victims of the consequences of their of their parents' actions as are the Palestinian children hurt by Israeli rockets and shells. I will revise my statement above to state that I don't think it is Israeli policy to seek to kill children, but it is every bit as certain to be the outcome of the long-standing policy of using often brutal military force against a civilian population, and I firmly believe that many people in Israeli politics (and society) who would much prefer to continue this way than give up their expansionist policies. When you say that you know what most people in the world would do, surely you ignore the countless examples of people taking sometimes extreme risks to fight oppression or for their beliefs, be they right or wrong. What population has ever consented to perpetual subordination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 thats were your wrong as soon as they stop firing at our town the idf will stop firing to , but the only problem is that the hamas will still carry on making tunnels into the sinai desert and bring more and better missles into the gaza strip , , one thing you said that hamas was elected Democratically, thats true , but the president of the Palestinian people does not regonize the hamas goverment and they have their own prime minister of fatach , the hamas is funded by iran and hizbolla who both want to wipe israel of the map , i have a question for , when you go on a bus , or you go to a disco or cafe ,or go shopping or even take your kids to school , does your kids school have a armed guard on duty at the gate th??? , or when you go on a bus you look to see if someone strange gets on ,thinking he or she could be a suicide bomber the answer is no , i know for a fact that no school shopping centre disco etc in the uk does not have a armed gurad on duty , we have to have armed guards in schools on buses , shopping centre etc , because of hamas terroists who are trying to kill anyone here in israel , and we have also a threat in the north from hizbolla too The IDF (bit of a misnomer that one at times like this it should be the IAF ) will not stop if Hamas stops because it can't. They have crossed a line by moving ground troops into Palestinian terrorty (sp?) and for them to pull out the moment Hamas stops firing is going to be very hard. Hamas may not be recognised by the President of Palestine, but could that be because if they were recognised he would have to conceed his nice Presidency (much like the Mugabe situation in Zimbabewe). Hamas might be funded by Iran and Hizbolla but those kids in that schoold weren't funded by either one and last time I checked it might be a good idea if Israel was that worried by funding for Hamas to stop it at the source but that would involve fighting Iran who are as big and as powerful as Israel and Israel likes to be the bully in its 'wars.' If the UK had dealt with those who fund terrorists the same way Isreal has done, then we would be in our rights to wipe Boston, New York and Chicago off the map as without these metropolis and the misguided residents within the IRA would not have found the funding it did. We didn't because that would have been wrong. There are no armed guards in municpal buildings in this country, but there are armed guards in municipal buildings in a lot of other countries. Lots of American schools have armed guards not because of terrorists but because of 'their right to bear arms' and that means gun problems are rife. If the UK had as lax gun laws as lots of the world I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be too long before armed guards were present at schools, hospitals, shopping centres etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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