leeslover Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 there is good and bad in every religion in this world. but the fact the israeli country is a jewish state kind of weaves themselves together. the actions of both sides for the last few decades haven't promoted much in the process of understanding,peace and harmony have they? eye for and eye. In previous times the main Palestinian opposition to Israel was the secular Fatah movement, with no religious motivation at all. This is no difference from a tribal, racial, linguistic or any other kind of dispute, the religions are just a way in which poeple define themselves, or perhaps the way in which they are defined as, "not one of the other lot." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hamas HAVE called an immediate ceasefire. Let's hope it holds. from the bbc.. ""We (Hamas) announce a ceasefire of our factions in the Gaza Strip and we stress that our demand is the withdrawal of the enemy forces from the Gaza Strip within a week, along with the opening of all the crossings for the entry of humanitarian aid, food and other necessities for our people in the Gaza Strip." The group said the ceasefire would be temporary unless Israel met these long-standing demands. An Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor, did not comment directly on the Hamas demands. But he told the BBC that troops would be withdrawn from the Gaza Strip "in good time" if there was "a total halt to attacks by Hamas". The BBC's Bethany Bell, on the Israeli side of the border with Gaza, says Israeli helicopters and drones have been flying overhead and Israeli troops are on high alert. Many people are hoping that a ceasefire will last, but no-one on either side of the border will be surprised if the fighting starts up again, our correspondent adds. " not much trust from each side by the sounds of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 There are many Christians and even Muslims in Israel, so it is by no means exclusively a Jewish state. Although the fact it exists at all is somewhat tied to Judaism. If Israel WAS an exclusively Jewish state, do you think it would allow some of Christianity and Islam's most sacred sites to continue to exist (and be accessible) in Jerusalem? If you were to convert to Judaism, you would be entitled to citizenship of Israel. The people in Gaza are not allowed to live in their home towns (the ones over the border, which a few of them fire rockets at) or be citizens, because they are not Jewish. Israel is a Jewish state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 there is good and bad in every religion in this world. but the fact the israeli country is a jewish state kind of weaves themselves together. the actions of both sides for the last few decades haven't promoted much in the process of understanding,peace and harmony have they? eye for and eye. Yeah, in many people's minds. They are related. It certainly does not mean that Israel is run in accordance to Jewish law. As I said, if you believe this then you are completely misguided as to what Israel is, what its people are like, and how it functions politically. Israel is not run by extreme Jewish fanatacists. It is run by Jews. I'm Jewish, I don't live my whole life in accordance with the Torah. In fact, the bad things that I do, which all people do, are against how the Torah says I should lead my life. If I were to kill someone, which I haven't (!), then would it not be ridiculous to then claim that I had done so because I was Jewish? Just because I often identify myself by my heritage, does not mean that any bad things, or for that matter good things, that I do are because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 If you were to convert to Judaism, you would be entitled to citizenship of Israel. The people in Gaza are not allowed to live in their home towns (the ones over the border, which a few of them fire rockets at) or be citizens, because they are not Jewish. Israel is a Jewish state. these will be the ones who were up-rooted by the israeli state wouldn't it? therefore,not jewish/not wishing to convert,not allowed to live in their home towns. nothing to do with religion then is it? its all inter-twinned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 In accordance with leeslover's post, Israel yes, is a Jewish state. This of course does not mean that only Jews live there, nor does it mean that non-Jews can not immigrate there. In response to garcon's post...whilst the situation you suggest is, whilst not impossible of course, extremely extremely unlikely...I would not think that Islamic and Christian sites would be destroyed. In the same way that until the end of the 1967 Six Day War, Jews were unable to reach the Western Wall, but previous governors of the territory did not destroy it. The only way other sites would be destroyed would be if a fanatical Right Wing Jewish organisation got into power (and even then, it's probably more likely they wouldn't). Given Israel's largely secular nature, one would expect that this will never happen anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hopefully it never will. That would be the beginning of the end of that part of the world as a habitable place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 these will be the ones who were up-rooted by the israeli state wouldn't it? therefore,not jewish/not wishing to convert,not allowed to live in their home towns. nothing to do with religion then is it? its all inter-twinned. If they were to convert, then they'd be getting into Israel purely by using a 'loophole' in immigration policy, that the Law of Return enables any Jew across the world to live in Israel. As my initial point says, Judaism does not govern foreign policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Yeah, in many people's minds. They are related. It certainly does not mean that Israel is run in accordance to Jewish law. As I said, if you believe this then you are completely misguided as to what Israel is, what its people are like, and how it functions politically. Israel is not run by extreme Jewish fanatacists. It is run by Jews. I'm Jewish, I don't live my whole life in accordance with the Torah. In fact, the bad things that I do, which all people do, are against how the Torah says I should lead my life. If I were to kill someone, which I haven't (!), then would it not be ridiculous to then claim that I had done so because I was Jewish? Just because I often identify myself by my heritage, does not mean that any bad things, or for that matter good things, that I do are because of it. ok,i take your very valid views on board..and i guessed a while back you were jewish. there are very different variations concerning extremes in everything today-religion.football supporters.politics.music.etc etc. but the fact the gaza situation was triggered by a happening releted from WW2 says that religion isn't the answer to everything in this world...(does that sound right?)..whatever religion you want to name. the fact their is little or no understanding from different religions,ethnic groups etc etc towards each other when these come together in conflict proves to me no one is ever right...or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 If they were to convert, then they'd be getting into Israel purely by using a 'loophole' in immigration policy, that the Law of Return enables any Jew across the world to live in Israel. As my initial point says, Judaism does not govern foreign policy. but why should these ex residents have to consider this only option available to return to their houses by converting and use this loophole? the israeli governments have forced these people away from their home towns and claimed it as their own...fair? any wonder there are problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I count myself as atheist now, but I grew up going to a Methodist church and retain an interest in the religions (all be it not always a very knowledgeable one). It saddens me deeply that the three religions with the most in common, who all follow the same God, whose texts are so similar (and in parts the same), are the three in whose name there is most violence. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all preach tolerance, peace and a very similar set of morals, yet the extremists of all three pursue the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 but the fact the gaza situation was triggered by a happening releted from WW2 says that religion isn't the answer to everything in this world...(does that sound right?)..whatever religion you want to name. It wasn't Johnny. A Jewish state in Palestine had been planned for decades prior to WW2. And that conflict itself had nothing to do with religion, so even in so far as the Holocaust impacted on events in Palestine, you are wide of the mark in blaming religion as such IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I count myself as atheist now, but I grew up going to a Methodist church and retain an interest in the religions (all be it not always a very knowledgeable one). spooky...same here!! It saddens me deeply that the three religions with the most in common, who all follow the same God, whose texts are so similar (and in parts the same), are the three in whose name there is most violence. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all preach tolerance, peace and a very similar set of morals, yet the extremists of all three pursue the opposite. completely agree..religion and the intolerance of other religions has created more wars and conflicts then i'd care for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 It wasn't Johnny. A Jewish state in Palestine had been planned for decades prior to WW2. And that conflict itself had nothing to do with religion, so even in so far as the Holocaust impacted on events in Palestine, you are wide of the mark in blaming religion as such IMO. knew it didn't sound right! ok,it was escalated by the happenings in WW2. of course hitler was just trying to take over the world,but we all know the happenings in the concentration camps,the rounding up of jews in germany to watch the synagogues being burnt down, etc etc..so religion has a very big say in WW2 eh? i mean,hitler wanted to eliminate the jewish race and create the teutonic master race... but i know you already know that! just looking at it from a different angle i suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsslatic Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 ok,i take your very valid views on board..and i guessed a while back you were jewish. there are very different variations concerning extremes in everything today-religion.football supporters.politics.music.etc etc. but the fact the gaza situation was triggered by a happening releted from WW2 says that religion isn't the answer to everything in this world...(does that sound right?)..whatever religion you want to name. the fact their is little or no understanding from different religions,ethnic groups etc etc towards each other when these come together in conflict proves to me no one is ever right...or wrong. Agree with the above, my initial point was that I disagreed with the idea that Israel's actions mean that Judaism in inherently an unpeaceful religion. I agree that religion is not the answer to everything in the world, and war between religions of course never proves anyone right or wrong. I was just trying to show that whilst Israel and Judaism are intrinsically connected on a number of levels...they are not one and the same, especially with regards to foreign policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 which pretty sums up my thoughts on religion...because lets face it,apart from the land snatch,this has a huge factor on these troubles. muslim and jewish religions...peaceful religions? not much evidence to suggest such. maybe i was asking a deeper question,not telling the answer? the fact that any religion in this world has a conflict associated to their history-aggressors or victims-says,to me, religion isn't exactly the reason is the first place,but a conveniant badge to hide behind. so maybe i'm answering my own above query here. there are peace loving types and aggressive types in all religions ,extremes and moderates,but they all get caught up in it at the end...directly or indirectly,through choice or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 the sad thing is that all this would not have happened if hamas had not been fireing rockets into our town .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 the sad thing is that all this would not have happened if hamas had not been fireing rockets into our town .. For God's sake Bob - read the previous 8 pages. Neither would it have happened if you hadn't stolen their country and stuck them in a concentration camp for 50 years, or indeed if Israel hadn't broken the 6 month truce a few days before it ended. Israel has gone so far this time that many previous supporters around the world are disgusted, you can wank on about Hamas for as much as you like, large parts of the world that were previously sympathetic to Israel has seen this for what it is - state terrorism and murder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pukka Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Both sides will continue to kill each other and never accept that what they are doing is wrong. I may sound heartless (and fully accept that I'll be pillaried for this) but I've stopped caring. Their conflict is having a direct impact on the rest of the world. I turn the news off when its to do with the middle east. I dont believe half of what comes out of the media anyway, but especially about that. Isreali news agencies will tell you that Hamas did X,Y and Z. Arab news agencies deny it. Who do you believe? I have completely stopped caring and just leave em to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor_Coconut Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 2,000 protesters call for end to the killing Reporter: Jennifer Hollamby Date online: 19/01/2009 TWO thousand Oldhamers took part in a protest calling for an end to the bloodshed in Gaza. The men, women and children braved the cold and poured on to the grounds of Grange School to show their support for Palestinians in the Middle East trouble spot. A predominantly Asian crowd, with support from the Oldham TUC and the Saddleworth Peace Movement, gathered to listen as high profile speakers, including Oldham Euro MP Chris Davies and Oldham West and Royton MP Michael Meacher detailed the plight of those living in Gaza. Hell MEP Chris Davies, who has witnessed first hand the devastation in the area, said: “Israel has turned Gaza into hell. The ground is shaking with explosions, even during a ceasefire. “There are donkey carts in the street and F16s in the sky, 21st century killing machines just dropping bombs, 300 children are dead already, hundreds more torn apart limb from limb. “This is not the proportionate response of a civilised power. It is evil. Actions “Britain and the European Union hold some responsibility for Israeli actions. On no occasion in the past have we ever backed up our criticism of the treatment of Palestinians with any kind of action.” The crowd roared in approval as Mr Davies called for an immediate embargo on the sale of arms to Israel and the suspension of the EU partnership agreement with Israel, which gives Israel favourable trading conditions. More long-term security will only come about through a settlement with Palestine which would require the withdrawal of 450,000 Israelis from the West Bank, he said. He added: “Above all, the Israeli government needs to talk to Hamas.” “You can’t negotiate peace without talking to your enemy.” Other speakers also called for a boycott on Israeli goods. Michael Meacher said: “The action in Gaza can only be described as a war crime. The Israeli army has bombed UN buildings and has shown a total disregard for civilian life. “This is not about the Hamas rockets, it’s about domination. “Britain was bombed by The IRA during the 70s, but we didn’t respond by flattening West Belfast. “While it is not acceptable for Hamas to fire rockets into a neighbouring country, in this case it is a symbol of defiance against the subjugation suffered by 1.5 million people who are penned into a tiny strip of land between a prison wall and the sea.” Mr Meacher backed Chris Davies’s action plan for peace and called for Israelis to withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. He said: “We also need to create a viable Palestinian state and we need a comprehensive peace agreement between all the Arab states and Israel if we are to have any hope of resolving these problems.” Immigration minister Oldham East and Saddleworth MP, Phil Woolas was met by boos from sections of the crowd when he got up to speak to condemn the continued military offensive and appealed for peace in the region. The organisers of the event, the Interfaith Forum and Oldham Together, had stressed in their literature that the protest was about the Israeli government and not about the Jewish people and communities. Fazal Rahim, from the Interfaith Forum, urged Muslims and Jews in Oldham to come together. The event, one of many pro-peace demos taking place on Saturday, was also attended by Father Phil Sumner, from the Interfaith Forum, and the Mayor, Councillor Shoab Akhtar, and councillors of all political parties. Doesn't really sound like a peace demo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Doesn't really sound like a peace demo. He do you mean Coco? Nobody was advocating bombing downtown Tel Aviv to get them to stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor_Coconut Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 He do you mean Coco? Nobody was advocating bombing downtown Tel Aviv to get them to stop. Sounds and reads like a coming together of people who believe Israel are the great evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 NO PLANES TANKS FIREING TODAY , BUT HAMAS FIRES 7ROCKETS IN THE TOWNS HERE It'll take Hamas a long time to match the amount of ordanance thrown by Israel in the past few weeks with those rockets. Why didn't you post every time the IDF launched white phosphorous or other scummy, illegal weapons at Gaza in the past few weeks? You didn't because it would be impossible to keep up, even for you. It's also not true that the IDF didn't respond to yesterday's rockets. This means that you are a liar and a hypocrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Sounds and reads like a coming together of people who believe Israel are the great evil. I dare say you are right that a fair number of the people there do hold that view, although I can’t see that in any of the reported speeches in the article. Surely there are a lot of people who want this current action to stop without wishing to see Israel destroyed? Including Israeli citizens, and it’s hardly extremist to advocate stopping selling them weapons and trading freely with them whilst they are using their weapons to murder civilians and blocking Gaza’s trade routes to the point of starvation? PS, I think Israel is a great evil, but not THE great evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_ok Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) PS, I think Israel is a great evil, but not THE great evil. Glasgow Rangers? Yorkshire? The Midlands? Marmite? Edited January 19, 2009 by oafc_ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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