leeslover Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Why oh why does it cause such a delirious reaction when it happens to be someone in a position of authority who is at fault? Wrong, IMO. I will promise you that every Tarquin who is on camera so much as scratching his nuts at that demo is liable to feel a tap on his shoulder. I've no problem with that (at least so long as it isn't one of the recent made up laws that he has broken, such as scratching one's nuts in an aggressive manner liable to cause distress to a police office). The problem is the belief that the police should be able to act outside of the law without restraint. Think about how crazy that one is - the people we empower to maintain the law are themselves outside of it? New Labour have got a bit scary at times in their attempts to outflank any Tory law'n'order policy but even they haven't proposed Judge Dread yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futchers briefs Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Wrong, IMO. I will promise you that every Tarquin who is on camera so much as scratching his nuts at that demo is liable to feel a tap on his shoulder. I've no problem with that (at least so long as it isn't one of the recent made up laws that he has broken, such as scratching one's nuts in an aggressive manner liable to cause distress to a police office). The problem is the belief that the police should be able to act outside of the law without restraint. Think about how crazy that one is - the people we empower to maintain the law are themselves outside of it? New Labour have got a bit scary at times in their attempts to outflank any Tory law'n'order policy but even they haven't proposed Judge Dread yet. Bring him in.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejh45 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Bob's gone all quiet again!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Bob's gone all quiet again!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorvik_latic Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Bob's gone all quiet again!!! Just what I was thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scratch2000uk Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Looked like to me, the copper in question was a bit narked he had to come out of his panda car and do some actual police work. Maybe he wasn't best pleased with a innocent guy delaying his imminent return to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 The guy in question is pictured in todays papers standing in front of a riot van, refusing to move as the cop inside shouts at him to get out of the way... not the 'innocent passer by' that some have painted him to be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 His mate on Sky News described him as "an innocent man who'd just had a couple of drinks". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorvik_latic Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 His mate on Sky News described him as "an innocent man who'd just had a couple of drinks". I thought he'd just finished work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scratch2000uk Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 It's quite obvious ( if you read the sun newspaper) He was a boozed up Millwall fan, who was asking for it. I personaly think that copper hit him a bit harder than he should have done, but given the circumstances, these thing do happen from time to time. It's a shame the coppers didn't accept there had been contact with Mr Tomlinson before the video/photography footage was released. That part of it, is more disturbing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 The guy in question is pictured in todays papers standing in front of a riot van, refusing to move as the cop inside shouts at him to get out of the way... not the 'innocent passer by' that some have painted him to be... Makes no difference in my opinion....the force used was excessive. If you watch the vid (as I am sure you have) the Policeman actually sneaks up on him to have a go...disgraceful. I am sure the Police had had a tough day and were fed up. I also understand they have to be 'pro-active' and aggressive with their tactics, but the force used by the policeman in that particular situation was excessive. Unfortunately this sort of behaviour from the Police happens every day...this time the Policeman will pay the price and hopefully it will deter others from using such unnecessary force in future. As for being sent to jail for murder ? ..... No, but a charge like assault ? Well I think there's a strong case to answer for the Policeman being charged with something like assault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slurms mckenzie Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) Doesn't seem a million miles different from the Way Conflict supporters were massacred at the Feeding of the 5000, the way Rodney King was beaten in the US, or the way innocent Rangers fans were tw@tted in Manchester. Thugs in uniform, always has been, always will be. Edited April 11, 2009 by slurms mckenzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 (edited) I thought he'd just finished work? Well, a "couple of drinks" after selling out of Evening Standards then. Apparently his brother died of a heart attack at a similar age. So the issues are around: 1) Was the police action proportionate to the situation? 2) Did the police action cause his death? Answers: 1) I have no idea what the real situation was. This will give rise to claims of "cover up". But if the police were planning a tactical move and this guy has got in the way, how are they meant to shift him if he refuses to move on? Could a failure to shift him endanger others by delaying the police's "tactical move"? 2) Contributed - possibly. Caused - doubtful. I have seen cases of police stepping beyond reasonable law enforcement with my own eyes. I'm not totally convinced that it's happened here though, although the initial denials concern me. If the inquiry leads to a decent copper losing his job (and the inevitable impact on his kids) because they need a scapegoat, that would be wrong. Equally, if the actions prove to be unwarranted, throw the book at him/them. Edited April 11, 2009 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 For what it's worth my opinion is that the copper is a bully and has some sort of minor assault charge to answer to. If they were so keen to get him out the way then bunding him over and leaving him on his arse complaining isn't an efficient way of doing so. Therefore that defence, to me, is worthless. The copper has let adrenalin and the power of his position get to him and he's taken a cheap shot at somebody as soon as he has found the slightest excuse to do so. The fact the poor bloke stumbles away and then dies isn't somethiing the copper should have to answer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 If the inquiry leads to a decent copper losing his job (and the inevitable impact on his kids) because they need a scapegoat, that would be wrong. Equally, if the actions prove to be unwarranted, throw the book at him/them. Do decent coppers smack people with a trucheon without warning because they find their none-illegal prescence inconvenient? Don't get me wrong, my grandad was said to be the hardest copper in Preston in the days when if they scratched their knuckles punching someone he got charged with biting the officer's hand, but in this day and age it's very disturbing that "collateral damage" is considered acceptable in the policing of a political demonstration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Do decent coppers smack people with a trucheon without warning because they find their none-illegal prescence inconvenient? Don't get me wrong, my grandad was said to be the hardest copper in Preston in the days when if they scratched their knuckles punching someone he got charged with biting the officer's hand, but in this day and age it's very disturbing that "collateral damage" is considered acceptable in the policing of a political demonstration. I don't get you wrong. There is a case to explain and possibly one that needs a court case. That said, not shifting when a copper tells you too isn't clever. Neither is whacking somebnody because he's pissed you off and you wear the uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny punkster Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 well its getting more interesting now. died of internal bleeding,not heart attack. cop could be up for manslaughter. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8004222.stm "Jules Carey of Tuckers, the family's solicitor, said the family had known about the results of the second post-mortem for the past week - but had reluctantly agreed to remain silent while the IPCC continued its investigations." attempted cover up? whatever next... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Becketts Anchor Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 whatever next... Death by alcohol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Just read the article myself...don't understand the medical terms, but the solicitor acting for the family hints that the copper could be in a world of :censored:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Becketts Anchor Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Just read the article myself...don't understand the medical terms, but the solicitor acting for the family hints that the copper could be in a world of :censored:. But he would, wouldn't he? Facts are that the guy was a pisshead, who had left his home due to being a pisshead, and was living in a hostel (possibly with many pissheads). He was clearly pissed when the well publicised incident occurred (and when the less well publicised ones did too). What happened might have been an aggravating factor, but I'd be surprised if his alcoholic history didn't play a part. Of course, it doesn't detract from the tragedy for his family (although I do wonder if compo is uppermost in some of their thoughts), and we should all remember how easy it is to fall into a similar situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 But he would, wouldn't he? Facts are that the guy was a pisshead, who had left his home due to being a pisshead, and was living in a hostel (possibly with many pissheads). He was clearly pissed when the well publicised incident occurred (and when the less well publicised ones did too). What happened might have been an aggravating factor, but I'd be surprised if his alcoholic history didn't play a part. It quite possibly does, everyone's seen the footage by now and most people wouldn't suffer massive internal bleeding from that kind of injury. But given that the police can't tell someone's medical history from looking at them, and therefore don't know if someone's an alcoholic, or a haemophiliac, or on blood-thinning drugs like Warfarin, it would be better for them to err on the side of caution and not knock people to the ground for no reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 But he would, wouldn't he? Facts are that the guy was a pisshead, who had left his home due to being a pisshead, and was living in a hostel (possibly with many pissheads). He was clearly pissed when the well publicised incident occurred (and when the less well publicised ones did too). What happened might have been an aggravating factor, but I'd be surprised if his alcoholic history didn't play a part. Of course the family solicitor is going to be playing the game and trying to create an angle on the situation to suit their case. But, even to someone with little medical knowledge like myself, it sounds like this copper MIGHT have directly caused this chap's death. There'll be more medical reports yet.... I feel sorry for the copper (but not as sorry as I feel for the deceased or his family) but he really should have shown some restraint....the force he used was unnecessary, excessive and illegal. Can't say I'd like to comment on the chaps ' alcoholic history '.... it wouldn't surprise me at all if this was just a rumour, perhaps created by the police. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Becketts Anchor Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 I feel sorry for the copper (but not as sorry as I feel for the deceased or his family) but he really should have shown some restraint....the force he used was unnecessary, excessive and illegal. It was fairly clear, from the original footage, that he wasn't just "making his way home". Saying that, the violence used sickened me at the time. Police are often put into awkward situations like this, where they have to make a judgement as to what they should do. I suppose they thought that if flattening the pissed up Millwall bloke would help, it was the right thing to do at the time. They can't ask for your medical records before dealing with you, after all. Can't say I'd like to comment on the chaps ' alcoholic history '.... it wouldn't surprise me at all if this was just a rumour, perhaps created by the police. This story suggests he wasn't even employed as a paper seller. If I recall correctly, the original statements about his life were quoted in the Daily Mail (so no surprise there then). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I know this is slightly off topic, but. I've just seen an article on the BBC News with the woman hit by a police officer during the G20 shenanigans. She says, and I quote, "he could have asked me nicely" when asked by the interviewer about being hit by a police officer. The clip was playing at the time, and she clearly steps out of a line of protesters who are being verbally abusive to the police to shout something inaudible and point aggressively at the police line. And she expects to be "asked politely"!! Get real you stupid bitch! You turned up to a protest (on the second day!!) after seeing on TV that it's kicked off, then abuse a cop and then get smacked and then complain? Sit down. Shut up. :censored: off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oafc88 Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I know this is slightly off topic, but. I've just seen an article on the BBC News with the woman hit by a police officer during the G20 shenanigans. She says, and I quote, "he could have asked me nicely" when asked by the interviewer about being hit by a police officer. The clip was playing at the time, and she clearly steps out of a line of protesters who are being verbally abusive to the police to shout something inaudible and point aggressively at the police line. And she expects to be "asked politely"!! Get real you stupid bitch! You turned up to a protest (on the second day!!) after seeing on TV that it's kicked off, then abuse a cop and then get smacked and then complain? Sit down. Shut up. :censored: off. Agree 100%. Obviously over the top reactions (though i suppose it depends what you see as OTT) aren't really acceptable, however it beggars belief when some of these people wonder why they've been hit. As you say there was a video clip showing her acting agressively, what else was she expecting, a ruffle of the hair and to be told "on yer way you cheeky scamp". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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