65th Anniversary of D-Day

[oafcprozac]

When you wake in the morning take a few seconds to reflect of the events that unfolded and the scarifices that were made on June 6th 1944. Without which we wouldn't be able to spout random :censored:e on message boards such as this day after day.

 

As a history graduate I normally dismiss films with a historical content. Saving Private Ryan was on last night, I only ever watch the first 24 minutes but for anyone who thinks we steamrollered our way into Northern France watch that and think again. The American and Canadians met with well dug-in resistance and it was sometime before they secured the beah head at Omaha...

 

"Despite Allied superiority, the Germans contained Allied troops in their slowly expanding beachhead for six weeks. The U.S. 1st and 29th Infantry Divisions made the most difficult landing on Omaha Beach. Stiff German resistance here caused over 3,000 casualties before the Allied troops could establish their positions by the end of the first day. On D-Day itself, Allied troops suffered more than 10,000 casualties: British and Canadian forces suffered around 3,700 casualties; U.S. forces took about 6,600 casualties. The German defenders lost between 4,000 and 9,000 men."

[jsslatic]

Without which we wouldn't be able to spout random :censored:e on message boards such as this day after day.

 

 

D-Day was a heroic event and we are indebted to those who laid down their lives, but the above comment is completely unfounded...

[beag_teeets]

 

D-Day was a heroic event and we are indebted to those who laid down their lives, but the above comment is completely unfounded...

 

 

Aye because whilst D-Day is quite rightly held up as symbol of the start of the end of the war the real reason the Germans were defeated were the millions of deaths on the Russian side. The defence of the Atlantic wall did force Hitler to commit many resources to the western front that could otherwise have been more usefully employed against the Russians.

 

For me we celebrate D-Day too much in the West and overlook the horrors of the Eastern front, the people in the lands around East Prussia and further south were dry bummed by the Germans on their way east and by the Russian's on their way west. The millions of fallen members of the Red Army who were initially pressed into service without even having a rifle let alone any other tools of the trade who stood up to the Germans and then pushed them back all the way to Berlin.

 

The Russians had been crying out for her allies to start the 2nd front for a long time before June '44, when it came it was a master-stroke of planning, performance, luck and endeavour but on it's own Overlord did not end the war.

[jsslatic]

Aye because whilst D-Day is quite rightly held up as symbol of the start of the end of the war the real reason the Germans were defeated were the millions of deaths on the Russian side. The defence of the Atlantic wall did force Hitler to commit many resources to the western front that could otherwise have been more usefully employed against the Russians.

 

For me we celebrate D-Day too much in the West and overlook the horrors of the Eastern front, the people in the lands around East Prussia and further south were dry bummed by the Germans on their way east and by the Russian's on their way west. The millions of fallen members of the Red Army who were initially pressed into service without even having a rifle let alone any other tools of the trade who stood up to the Germans and then pushed them back all the way to Berlin.

 

The Russians had been crying out for her allies to start the 2nd front for a long time before June '44, when it came it was a master-stroke of planning, performance, luck and endeavour but on it's own Overlord did not end the war.

 

+1

 

Add to that the fact that the hypothesis things would be different now had the Allies been defeated on D-Day is reliant on a number of unclear assumptions including:

 

1. The Germans would have been able to successfully invade Britain, despite the fact that no invading force since 1066 has been successful.

2. A Nazi regime would have been able to sustain itself in Britain without successful rebellion, despite the entrenched system and culture of liberal democracy in this country.

3. Defeat on D-Day would have meant the Germans would have won the war, despite the resilience of the Russians and the firepower of the Americans.

 

Counterfactual history is a very, very dangerous game...

[OldhamSheridan]

So what you are saying is we should watch 'Come and See' not 'Saving Private Ryan'?

[oafcprozac]

 

D-Day was a heroic event and we are indebted to those who laid down their lives, but the above comment is completely unfounded...

 

Every life lost in WWII was one too many on every side. As June 6th is the day the widely anticipated 'second-front' was finally opened I believe it deserves recognition. Without the opening of the second front it may have taken Russia longer to reach Berlin but they would have got there none the less - thus creating a much bigger problem than the divisions that began to surface at Yalta and Potsdam.

[jsslatic]

Every life lost in WWII was one too many on every side. As June 6th is the day the widely anticipated 'second-front' was finally opened I believe it deserves recognition. Without the opening of the second front it may have taken Russia longer to reach Berlin but they would have got there none the less - thus creating a much bigger problem than the divisions that began to surface at Yalta and Potsdam.

 

And whilst I don't disagree with that, my point was that D-Day was not responsible for the fact that we're able to spout rubbish on here...

[oafcprozac]

Aye because whilst D-Day is quite rightly held up as symbol of the start of the end of the war the real reason the Germans were defeated were the millions of deaths on the Russian side. The defence of the Atlantic wall did force Hitler to commit many resources to the western front that could otherwise have been more usefully employed against the Russians.

 

Employed usefully or not gainst the Russians, their ability to turn inwards, coupled with the germans initial stunning successes and being unprepared for the Russian winter added to the lengthening supply lines meant the Germans were pretty much fooked from the autumn of 1941.

 

For me we celebrate D-Day too much in the West and overlook the horrors of the Eastern front, the people in the lands around East Prussia and further south were dry bummed by the Germans on their way east and by the Russian's on their way west. The millions of fallen members of the Red Army who were initially pressed into service without even having a rifle let alone any other tools of the trade who stood up to the Germans and then pushed them back all the way to Berlin.

 

I agree, the legacy of the Eastern Front should never be forgotten, in Eastern Europe it isn't - and in the west there' holocuast memorial day, Imo there should be some recognition of the Great Patriotic War.The Russians had been crying out for her allies to start the 2nd front for a long time before June '44, when it came it was a master-stroke of planning, performance, luck and endeavour but on it's own Overlord did not end the war.

 

We know, the West should hang it's head in shame, we know why we waited and it was wrong to let a nation suffer so many losses. In order to improve the West's position in post-war Europe

Edited June 5, 2009 by oafcprozac

[oafcprozac]

And whilst I don't disagree with that, my point was that D-Day was not responsible for the fact that we're able to spout rubbish on here...

who knows mate, without the second front we may now all be National Socialists or Communists either way living under a tyrannical regime were civil liberties are none existent, Oh hang on a minute...

[oafcprozac]

+1

 

Add to that the fact that the hypothesis things would be different now had the Allies been defeated on D-Day is reliant on a number of unclear assumptions including:

 

1. The Germans would have been able to successfully invade Britain, despite the fact that no invading force since 1066 has been successful.

I disagree, Hitler just wanted to knock Britain out of the war, thus the Battle of Britain and the blitz. Hitler and Goering knew that the Germans had to take control of the skies over south east england, for any invasion attempt to have a chance, they achieved this briefly but never capitalised on it. Instead turning his attention to bombing cities - another reason a full invasion would have been unsuccessful and would have been the fact that no invasion would be successful without amphibious landings - the Royal Navy would have obliterated a weak German fleet, in the Channel and North Sea, Hitler's biggest fear.

 

2. A Nazi regime would have been able to sustain itself in Britain without successful rebellion, despite the entrenched system and culture of liberal democracy in this country. Disagree, I don't think this was ever going to be an issue. I believe given the organisation of our defences, and how stretched German resources were by 1944, the Germans would still have struggled to mount a full-scale invasion of the British Isles, particularly with how badly things were going on the eastern Front.

 

3. Defeat on D-Day would have meant the Germans would have won the war, despite the resilience of the Russians and the firepower of the Americans. I disagree here too. The only way this would have happened would have been for the Russians to have pulled out of the war, there is no way Stalin would have surrendered. The same with Roosevelt.

 

Counterfactual history is a very, very dangerous game...

Edited June 5, 2009 by oafcprozac

[jsslatic]

Prozac I don't think you're following what I'm arguing against

 

My point was that those three things wouldn't have happened, hence going against this nonsense that life would be radically different now had we lost on D-Day or the war in general.

[Killens_physio]

When you wake in the morning take a few seconds to reflect of the events that unfolded and the scarifices that were made on June 6th 1944. Without which we wouldn't be able to spout random :censored:e on message boards such as this day after day.

 

As a history graduate I normally dismiss films with a historical content. Saving Private Ryan was on last night, I only ever watch the first 24 minutes but for anyone who thinks we steamrollered our way into Northern France watch that and think again. The American and Canadians met with well dug-in resistance and it was sometime before they secured the beah head at Omaha...

 

"Despite Allied superiority, the Germans contained Allied troops in their slowly expanding beachhead for six weeks. The U.S. 1st and 29th Infantry Divisions made the most difficult landing on Omaha Beach. Stiff German resistance here caused over 3,000 casualties before the Allied troops could establish their positions by the end of the first day. On D-Day itself, Allied troops suffered more than 10,000 casualties: British and Canadian forces suffered around 3,700 casualties; U.S. forces took about 6,600 casualties. The German defenders lost between 4,000 and 9,000 men."

 

The thing most people overlook is that the Germans would have lost the war regardless of whether or not D-Day had succeeded. All D-Day did was shorten the war. Had the Allies been repelled at Normandy, they would have looked for alternative footholds in Europe. Had D-Day failed, there were already plans put in place to fight their way up through Italy, so rather than France being the start of victory in the West, it would have been the Mediterranen instead. Hitler always said that the biggest military mistake would be to fight a war on two fronts.......but as soon as he devised Operation Barbarossa his fate was sealed. Other mistakes such as looping round to take Stalingrad, rather than heading to Moscow (as they did get to within 12 miles) as his own generals begged him to do. Regardless of whether the Allies attack came from the West or the South, the end result would probably have been the same.

 

Tactical blunders on behalf of the Germans is militarily why they lost, but as every historian knows hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

1) On D-Day the Germans believed that Normandy was a smokescreen for the main invasion as Pas de Calais

2) Hitler insisted he didnt want to be woken hence his generals didnt disturb him when the invasion began

3) Operation Retribution in Yugoslavia delayed the German invasion of Russia by 3 crucial weeks

4) The activities of Einzatgruppen's in the East hardened the Soviet's will for revenge.

5) The iconic battle of Stalingrad and Hitler's refusal for withdrawl decimated Army Group Centre.

6) Goering changing tactics to bomb London instead of carrying on bombing the Airfields in Battle Of Britain.

7) Declaring war on the United States just after Pearl Harbour. Rooseveldt knew that popular opinion in the States didnt want another European War. He had to wait for Hitler to make the move......and got his wish.

 

The list of why they lost is endless........and i think the point in a long winded, round about way, is that while D-Day is celebrated as the liberation of Europe in the West the event itself wasnt the reason why the war was lost as the media likes to portray.

 

Phew