24hoursfromtulsehill Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Means testing takes into account income and savings... and usually from a family rather than individual basis... but its a play on words isn't it... If its not universal then its means tested by default I suppose... That's what I thought. Expensive to administer - unless you have some sort of smart registration system. Also, unless you have a smart system, a lot of people won't claim the benefits to which they are entitled, even if it means that their kids will be worse off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share Posted October 4, 2010 That's what I thought. Expensive to administer - unless you have some sort of smart registration system. Also, unless you have a smart system, a lot of people won't claim the benefits to which they are entitled, even if it means that their kids will be worse off. I have nothing against means testing... Its the right way of testing a benefit when it is not universal. It don't believe it has to be expensive or overall complex. Just because it currently is, due to public sector failures with IT projects (mainly) , dosen't mean it has to be... Not means testing non-universal benefits leads to this mess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I have nothing against means testing... Its the right way of testing a benefit when it is not universal. It don't believe it has to be expensive or overall complex. Just because it currently is, due to public sector failures with IT projects (mainly) , dosen't mean it has to be... Not means testing non-universal benefits leads to this mess... If only Yes, Minister were on now. Hacker would look bewildered and shocked as Sir Humphrey confidently explains that the only solution to the failures caused by dodgy Government IT procurement projects is another IT procurement project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share Posted October 4, 2010 If only Yes, Minister were on now. Hacker would look bewildered and shocked as Sir Humphrey confidently explains that the only solution to the failures caused by dodgy Government IT procurement projects is another IT procurement project. The public sectors inability to manager IT projects is mad... Although its a bit hard when Government policy changes so often... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Did someone mention IT? Come to us Georgie-Boy. Write us another cheque for a few billion dollars and we'll sort everything out for you. Our record is second to none! Nooooooooo no no no no, someone's been telling you fibs! The Tax Credit system was a work of genius! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 4, 2010 Author Share Posted October 4, 2010 Did someone mention IT? Come to us Georgie-Boy. Write us another cheque for a few billion dollars and we'll sort everything out for you. Our record is second to none! Nooooooooo no no no no, someone's been telling you fibs! The Tax Credit system was a work of genius! You say it like there is a choice to be had... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 I appreciate this, but surely you acknowledge the unfairness of the current suggestion... I agree it does seem quite unfair however the fairest system in my eyes (means testing) is also the most costliest and complex and would probably result in failings akin to the recent PAYE mess. The tories have said they will simplify the tax system and I think they said the same about the benefits system to. However the only way to do this is have simple rules that discriminate and result in big losers and perhaps big winners. However it also creates massive savings in regards to implementation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 I agree it does seem quite unfair however the fairest system in my eyes (means testing) is also the most costliest and complex and would probably result in failings akin to the recent PAYE mess. The tories have said they will simplify the tax system and I think they said the same about the benefits system to. However the only way to do this is have simple rules that discriminate and result in big losers and perhaps big winners. However it also creates massive savings in regards to implementation. I still think means testing is the right route... ...what worries me isn't losing child benefit for higher rate payers (although I think the CB payment stood for more than just payment into peoples pocket- but that is a different issue)... It is how they handle the cuts for the poorer in the country given how badly (IMO) this is being done... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 I'd be even more unpopular than Gormless Gideon as I'd scrap child benefit entirely. If you can't afford 'em, keep your legs crossed. This requires no paperwork, no means testing and is very easy for even this government to manage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 I'd be even more unpopular than Gormless Gideon as I'd scrap child benefit entirely. If you can't afford 'em, keep your legs crossed. This requires no paperwork, no means testing and is very easy for even this government to manage. Agreed, if you can't afford them, or can't look after them then don't bloody have them in the first place. Also, if you wait for your benefits to go in the bank and then head straight to the shop for cigarettes or to Wetherspoons for breakfast then you should get the benefits taken off you. If you are a stay at home mum, why can't you get off your bottom and do something whilst the kids are in school / nursery?! And don't get me started on tax credits............................................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 And don't get me started on tax credits............................................. Oi! Lisa. TAX CREDITS!!! <runs> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 I'd be even more unpopular than Gormless Gideon as I'd scrap child benefit entirely. If you can't afford 'em, keep your legs crossed. This requires no paperwork, no means testing and is very easy for even this government to manage. And the ones who don't keep their legs crossed should be punished for their temerity. Instead of paying child benefit, housing benefit and jobseekers' allowance, we could move those who find that they can't afford the big wide world into large municipal buildings or even amalgamated purpose-built parks, which we could call Less Eligible Communities, in the name of kindness and humanity. Gormless Gideon and the mighty, deep IDS are back at the drawing board now, the day after the big announcement. (Did anyone hear Gideon's voice falter as he went over the details? It was like he didn't know what he was talking about.) Another Minister says that the thresholds need tweaking. Shame. We're all in this together. Gideon says he'll be along in a minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Agreed, if you can't afford them, or can't look after them then don't bloody have them in the first place. Also, if you wait for your benefits to go in the bank and then head straight to the shop for cigarettes or to Wetherspoons for breakfast then you should get the benefits taken off you. If you are a stay at home mum, why can't you get off your bottom and do something whilst the kids are in school / nursery?! And don't get me started on tax credits............................................. Have you had kids Lisa ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Have you had kids Lisa ? Is that relevant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Is that relevant? Yes it is very relevant to a point I want to make... Did you have children ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Yes, what is your point?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Yes, what is your point?! Did you claim Child Benefit ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Did you claim Child Benefit ? Yes, because I am entitled to it. However, if I was no longer entitled to it then I would still be able to afford to look after my children. We brought them into the world and we will look after them and provide them with what they need. Child benefit is a bonus for us and not a guaranteed income. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 Not having children myself, I always assumed it was automatically credited rather than requiring you to actively claim it. There are obvious anomalies in the way this is being implemented, that much I agree with. Where I disagree is that the cost of means testing every family household would be far greater than you imagine, and would render any savings negligible. £1Bn is little enough as it is. One thing that puzzles me slightly is the timing of this announcement for this particular measure, when presumably most other key measures will not be announced in detail until the results of the spending review on 20 October. Clearly, it was felt something tangible was needed during conference week. And maybe this was chosen knowing full well it would create a debate - perhaps helping to set some expectations for what's to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Yes, because I am entitled to it. However, if I was no longer entitled to it then I would still be able to afford to look after my children. We brought them into the world and we will look after them and provide them with what they need. Child benefit is a bonus for us and not a guaranteed income. ok... There are A LOT of people in this country right now who's children and families benefited heavily from a lot of things and now seem actively encouraging the restriction of these benefits on the next generation... The 10p tax rate... Increased funding for the NHS Increased funding for the Education system Universal benefits for their children (trust funds, child benefits, maternity payments) Tax Credits Family Tax Credits Not saying all these things apply to you but Child Benefit is big one... Around a £1k per child tax free... That is big boost to anyones income. You and your family took advantage of this benefit and now you don't only wish to remove the benefit from other families you wish to demonise them as well. It is VERY easy for you to sit back NOW and say well I could of afforded my children still... But ask yourself this, how much was child care ? How much was your mortgage ? How much was the cost of living ? The country has changed a lot in the last 10 / 20 years... A one parent family earning £44k is not very well of at all... Specially if they have more than one child. Who is to say the effected family at one point could afford the kid and then dad died ? Its all well be an hard arse about these things but reality is always more complex... Finally, do you except you might of been greedy to claim something you claim you don't need ? Fair question me thinks given your harsh stance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Can child benefit overall be justified at this time for high earners... Probably not... Is the method presented the right way of doing it... Certainly not... Cut, but be fair about it I say... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Not having children myself, I always assumed it was automatically credited rather than requiring you to actively claim it. Nope, you have to fill out the forms like any benefit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 (edited) Nope, you have to fill out the forms like any benefit... Fur enuff. Being a single white male earning a respectable salary, I just assume there are no benefits I'm eligible for. Keeps it simple. I did fill in the forms to get £400 off my new boiler, mind. In assessing the fairness of cutting child benefit for higher rate tax payers, I think we should wait and see the balance of other measures that will be announced with the results of the spending review on 20 October. As I've said, taking it on its own yes it's clear there are anomallies. Although I don't believe the amounts involved, for the incomes involved were enough to constitute great unfairness. Edited October 5, 2010 by garcon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 I did fill in the forms ot get £400 off my new boiler, mind. I wouldn't say my wife is fat but when she bends over it's like that t'eclipse. Enjoy the buffet, I'm here all week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 5, 2010 Author Share Posted October 5, 2010 Fur enuff. Being a single white male earning a respectable salary, I just assume there are no benefits I'm eligible for. Keeps it simple. Council tax discount Shut ya moaning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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