Diego_Sideburns Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Documents leaked to the BBC include a letter sent to the then Prime Minister from a member of her policy unit in Downing Street. Four days after the disaster the letter's writer attended a meeting with Sir Kenneth Oxford, the then Chief Constable of Merseyside Police, and some of his senior colleagues. According to the letter Sir Kenneth said: "A key factor in causing the disaster was the fact that large numbers of Liverpool fans had turned up without tickets. This was getting lost sight of in attempts to blame the police, the football authorities, etc". The Prime Minister was also informed that an unnamed senior member of Merseyside Police laid the blame with Liverpool supporters. "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel," the letter said. Meseyside Police implicated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Documents leaked to the BBC include a letter sent to the then Prime Minister from a member of her policy unit in Downing Street. Four days after the disaster the letter's writer attended a meeting with Sir Kenneth Oxford, the then Chief Constable of Merseyside Police, and some of his senior colleagues. According to the letter Sir Kenneth said: "A key factor in causing the disaster was the fact that large numbers of Liverpool fans had turned up without tickets. This was getting lost sight of in attempts to blame the police, the football authorities, etc". The Prime Minister was also informed that an unnamed senior member of Merseyside Police laid the blame with Liverpool supporters. "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel," the letter said. Meseyside Police implicated From reading the news article about this on the Beeb I got the impression that the drunk fans thing came about quite early after the disaster and although the evidence then pointed away from fans being drunk the mud has already stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 BBC report describes how Thatcher's secretary described Lord Justice Taylor as "distinctly unhelpful" for prioritising establishing the truth about what happened at Hillsborough over helping the government force through ID cards. Bit surprised at how shocked people are by what Merseyside Police said. I wouldn't have expected them to do anything but close ranks when another police force was coming under scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Probably confirms where The Sun's reporting came from. In the end, who was Thatcher meant to believe in the immediate aftermath? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) The incompetence, lies and deceit appear to have been worse than I ever though. And I always knew it was bad. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19569706 Edited September 12, 2012 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldhamSheridan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Not really told us anything we don't know. Does this mean we can tear up the Taylor report and rip the seats out of grounds now? Thought not. Also, not sure why this is being led by the Bishop of Liverpool (on so many levels). What's he going to say, really? "Actually guys, I've read the 400,000 pages of crap and it turns out the Sun were right"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Not really told us anything we don't know. Does this mean we can tear up the Taylor report and rip the seats out of grounds now? Thought not. Also, not sure why this is being led by the Bishop of Liverpool (on so many levels). What's he going to say, really? "Actually guys, I've read the 400,000 pages of crap and it turns out the Sun were right"? It confirms that the government and police covered up the whole thing and sought to blame the Liverpool fans. I think he was chosen to lead it as it was felt he would be impartial and not political community leader. Edited September 12, 2012 by jimsleftfoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 This isn't the end. For openers, they need to re-open the inquests, which means the Attorney-General has to quash the original verdicts. Next, you've got to wonder whether any conviction involving South Yorkshire police in that period is safe. Then they've got to stop employing Kelvin MacKenzie. Then they've got to give years in jail to any living senior or junior officers involved in fabricating the evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If anything I think The Sun look less bad over this - they were taken in (maybe too easily, but that's to be seen) by lying coppers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 This isn't the end. For openers, they need to re-open the inquests, which means the Attorney-General has to quash the original verdicts. Next, you've got to wonder whether any conviction involving South Yorkshire police in that period is safe. Then they've got to stop employing Kelvin MacKenzie. Then they've got to give years in jail to any living senior or junior officers involved in fabricating the evidence. I agree, I think this is massive and has the potential to blow up depending on how people react to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If anything I think The Sun look less bad over this - they were taken in (maybe too easily, but that's to be seen) by lying coppers. Are you serious? Big Kel's modus operandi was to pay coppers for stories. When journalists resisted and told Kel that the coppers' stories didn't check out, and were fabricated beyond belief, Kel's response was: you :censored:ing write it warts and all or I'll get someone who will. The Sun, or MacKenzie personally, do not look less bad. Taken in my arse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliofashy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 So am I now to believe that the whole thing was the fault of the police and that Liverpool fans were not in any way at fault and in any way contributed to the disaster???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 So am I now to believe that the whole thing was the fault of the police and that Liverpool fans were not in any way at fault and in any way contributed to the disaster???????????? Well that was pretty much the outcome of the Taylor Report two decades ago. This goes one horrible step further and turns incompetence and lies of the police into something altogether more sinister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 So am I now to believe that the whole thing was the fault of the police and that Liverpool fans were not in any way at fault and in any way contributed to the disaster???????????? I thought that way for a long time, but the conclusions are that it could have been any of us if we'd turned up on that day, or indeed at a smaller ground with less fans. If there was any period in time we risked it, it was then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The incompetence, lies and deceit appear to have been worse than I ever though. And I always knew it was bad. http://www.bbc.co.uk...eyside-19543964 http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-19569706 Same here - I really thought that after 23 years of obsessively reading anything connected to Hillsborough and reading about blood alcohol levels being taken from dead children, accounts of police officers being ordered to stand forming a barrier between the two sets of fans when it was clear people were dying, bereaved wives being told they couldn't have their dead husbands' wedding rings back etc etc, I didn't think I'd be shocked by anything in the report, but my God they never fail to amaze. Taking blood alcohol levels from survivors being treated in hospital without their knowledge? Checking the National Police Computer to see if the victims had any criminal convictions that could be used against them? Requesting dog handlers to clear the pitch BEFORE requesting ambulances? It just gets worse and worse. I'm not surprised that so many police statements were altered; it's pretty staggering just how blatant it was that they were lying. The stuff about Supt Murray telling the Taylor inquiry that he'd never seen officers close the tunnel to the central pens in any previous games, his junior officers pointing out that they'd done exactly that at the semi-finals in 87 and 88, him saying they must have been acting on their own initiative, them saying they were acting on orders from senior officers....did no-one think to say "hang on, one of you HAS to be lying, why should we believe what you're telling us?" Sickening to see just how obvious the warning signs were - Sheff Wed's chairman telling the police off for allowing fans onto the pitch during the crush in the 1981 semi-final for making the ground look, and I quote, "untidy", and telling them "Bollocks - no-one would have been killed!" would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. Complaints were made to the FA about the Leppings Lane end after the previous 2 semi-finals, but no-one listened. The attitude's summed up by an order warning against delaying kick-off if fans were delayed getting to the ground, on the basis that "the police should not be dictated to by supporters". We're in charge, you're just animals, shut up and do as you're told. It does feel like a bit of a watershed moment though - I was fully expecting another whitewash, I didn't expect to hear the words "Mr speaker, the families were right." Mud sticks, some people are always going to believe what they want to believe ('I don't care if it's been proven that the allegations against the Liverpool fans were the direct result of an orchestrated smear campaign by the police, I've made my mind up and i'm sticking to it'), but hopefully the extent of the evidence that's been brought out and the media coverage might start to change some minds. It doesn't change the fact that the word 'accident' still appears on 96 death certificates or that no-one has ever been held accountable, but it's a start. The report's here, it's well worth reading, but maybe don't attempt to read it all in one go before you go to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Having watched the coverage all day yesterday, i'm about 80 pages into the report - to say I had a fretful night's sleep is an understatement. The actions of the Attorney General should be swift in quashing the original inquest verdict(s) as should the criminal action against the former SYP and West Midlands officers… it remains to be seen no matter how clear cut things have been proved whether the 'establishment' will hang itself out to dry with convictions… This is only the beginning... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Having watched the coverage all day yesterday, i'm about 80 pages into the report - to say I had a fretful night's sleep is an understatement. The actions of the Attorney General should be swift in quashing the original inquest verdict(s) as should the criminal action against the former SYP and West Midlands officers… it remains to be seen no matter how clear cut things have been proved whether the 'establishment' will hang itself out to dry with convictions… This is only the beginning... I doubt anything much will be done regarding the incompetence/negligence resulting to the deaths - the defence would be that it was normal practice at the time etc etc - but the doctoring of evidence is sickening and I would be very angry if consiracy charges (or perverting the course of justice?) weren't brought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Bloke on Sky News last night saying Hammond Suddards solicitors (major law firm) were involved in the changing of every statement. "I change it on legal advice guv" being the most likely defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Bloke on Sky News last night saying Hammond Suddards solicitors (major law firm) were involved in the changing of every statement. "I change it on legal advice guv" being the most likely defence. Interesting. If the lawyers knew how to fix the statements of the blokes on the ground, they must have known what the senior officers needed covering up. It's especially grim to read that the ambulance service were in on it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24hoursfromtulsehill Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Interesting. If the lawyers knew how to fix the statements of the blokes on the ground, they must have known what the senior officers needed covering up. It's especially grim to read that the ambulance service were in on it as well. The ambulance service! :censored: me! I seriously could not believe that. The joke about hippies in the '60s calling lollipop ladies "pigs" because of the uniform suddenly isn't funny any more. Plus: did anyone get to the Irvine Patnick section of the report yet? Interesting reading. Mad local man opportunistically imposing himself, on a whim, on a national tragedy. The archetypal intruder on private grief - intruder of the balaclava-and-crowbar type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Interesting. If the lawyers knew how to fix the statements of the blokes on the ground, they must have known what the senior officers needed covering up. It's especially grim to read that the ambulance service were in on it as well. It's not only the written media that got it so wrong, look at these news reports and the arse covering from the authorities begins virtually at zero hour of the disaster. As for Peter Wright, what a :censored:! http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z2HDjuu8Cw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Spurs v Wolves. 1981. Hillsborough. http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=wolves%20v%20spurs%201981&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDIQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjtzHVe2mEN0&ei=1CVSUMPUDu6k0AWghYHwDg&usg=AFQjCNFvEXP77h4ms7gnULi2qdFkS8-nJg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 From the latest report: In 1981 before the FA Cup Semi-Final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers there was serious congestion at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and crushing on the confined outer concourse. This led directly to severe compression on the Leppings Lane terrace and injuries to fans. Hillsborough was not used again for an FA Cup semi-final until 1987, and then again in 1988. 2. What followed was a serious crush on the terraces in which many people were injured and fatalities narrowly avoided. At that time lateral fences did not divide the Leppings Lane terrace into pens, and fans were able to move sideways along the full length of the terrace; others escaped onto the perimeter track through the narrow gates in the perimeter fence. 30. In their 1989 statements some SYP officers referred to crushing in the outer concourse area at the 1988 FA Cup Semi-Final. They were asked by the SYP solicitors, Hammond Suddards, to reconsider and qualify their statements. 38. SYP officers with experience of the inner concourse and terrace access stated that previously they had controlled access to the tunnel once the central pens appeared to be full, particularly in 1988. The disclosed documents reveal that this information was deleted from some officers' statements. Several officers declined a further invitation by SYP solicitors to reconsider their statements regarding SYP responsibility for monitoring the pens. 39. Senior SYP officers denied knowledge of tunnel closures at previous semi-finals, particularly 1988. They placed responsibility for that information not being given at debriefings on the officers responsible for the closures. Yet SYP officers responsible for closing the tunnel access in 1988 claimed that they had acted under instructions from senior officers. 40. Whatever their personal knowledge of the 1988 tunnel closure, both Chief Superintendent Mole and Chief Superintendent Duckenfield admitted their awareness of the practice of occasionally restricting access to the tunnel to prevent overcrowding in the central pens. Anybody who has ever blamed Liverpool supporters in part or in entirety for those deaths must read the summary in this report. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The stuff about Supt Murray telling the Taylor inquiry that he'd never seen officers close the tunnel to the central pens in any previous games, his junior officers pointing out that they'd done exactly that at the semi-finals in 87 and 88, him saying they must have been acting on their own initiative, them saying they were acting on orders from senior officers.... And, had it not ended so tragically that day in '89, it might very well have been Latics fans being closed in there for the FA Cup semi final the following year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosa Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 It's especially grim to read that the ambulance service were in on it as well. Even the bereaved families' own solicitors stabbed them in the back: 2.8.90 Given that many families would travel from Merseyside, Mr Fraser [a member of the Hillsborough Steering Committee,the group of solicitors representing the families] was asked about the most appropriate timings for the individual inquests. He suggested an early start, noting ‘There is one family who would swell the coffers of the local hostelry before they arrived, so if they were a 9.00am start’. I'm about halfway through the report and the determination to smear the Liverpool fans as violent pissheads and blame them for the disaster, right from the start, is astonishing. And I say that as someone who thought the inquest was a whitewash at the time, when I was still in primary school. As i've said, I didn't think i could be shocked by anything in the report, but I'm stunned by what's come out. Personally I think there's still a good case for prosecuting Bernard Murray and David Duckinfield for criminal negligence, especially when it's so obvious that they lied to the inquest and the Taylor report, but maybe too much water's gone under the bridge now (Duckinfield will probably be deemed too ill to stand trial anyway). There's absolutely no excuse for not prosecuting those responsible for altering statements though. And I could be wrong, but i'm sure there must be some legal issues with taking blood alcohol tests from the survivors without their knowledge. Interesting to see Norman Bettison's comments today about Liverpool making the police's job "harder than it needed to be" (an opinion he kept strangely quiet when he was chief constable on Merseyside). As someone i work with said, "They really were openly laughing at us when they appointed him chief constable here,weren't they?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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