rudemedic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 We should of kept the 50p rate... And anyone who wants to can :censored: off out of the country... There is a myth that these rich people are special. They are doing jobs others aren't capable of doing. Its a huge lie. We have a very experience and educated workforce sitting at home doing nothing. 2.5 million+ unemployed.. I am positive we can replace them... and that is before we look at how many talented people around Europe are currently looking for roles. I say let these selfish gits go... We don't want them or need them.... My Mum and the couple of hundred NHS employees (mainly doctors), not to mention the thousands of GPs that earn enough to have to pay highest rate tax are special. I don't see too mainly doctors sitting at home being unemployed. Same goes for the lawyers, footballers, union leaders, coppers, politicians, head teachers and various other public sector workers that earn £150k pa. Perhaps we pay people too much but then again in a lot of the medical cases the people earning enough to be paid £150k pa are superior to what we have below them (some are world class) or old enough to be able to retire. The only variables in medicine are the language it's delivered in, and the availability of the consumables used. British med schools are among the best in the world, if we didn't pay British doctors enough lots would go elsewhere and the ones we could get to replace them would not be as good. However, the amount raised by taxing a lot if those who earn over £150k per year 50% won't be much as the pay will not be normally distributed lots of people who pay 50% tax won't earn more than £200k pa. You would make a lot more tax if you taxed people earning £100k pa 41% than those earning £150k 50%. I didn't realise as it was before my time that in the 80s the very top earners paid 80% tax but the tax man got more when the same people paid 40%. The more you tax someone the more they dodge it. The more people you tax however.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) My Mum and the couple of hundred NHS employees (mainly doctors), not to mention the thousands of GPs that earn enough to have to pay highest rate tax are special. I don't see too mainly doctors sitting at home being unemployed. Same goes for the lawyers, footballers, union leaders, coppers, politicians, head teachers and various other public sector workers that earn £150k pa. You are not special, they are not special... Its a huge lie... I have a polish dentist for example who is very happy where she is, paying the taxse she does... 2.5 million people ready to take up those roles (many educated enough to do it right now) just as soon as you want to go in search of greener grass... I wish them good look... Perhaps we pay people too much but then again in a lot of the medical cases the people earning enough to be paid £150k pa are superior to what we have below them (some are world class) or old enough to be able to retire. The only variables in medicine are the language it's delivered in, and the availability of the consumables used. British med schools are among the best in the world, if we didn't pay British doctors enough lots would go elsewhere and the ones we could get to replace them would not be as good. Its not about pay... Doctors etc are worthy of their pay... Its about tax and fairness... Its about supporting and giving back... Its about hard times and the top giving back more to support the low paid who are on there arses. However, the amount raised by taxing a lot if those who earn over £150k per year 50% won't be much as the pay will not be normally distributed lots of people who pay 50% tax won't earn more than £200k pa. You would make a lot more tax if you taxed people earning £100k pa 41% than those earning £150k 50%. I didn't realise as it was before my time that in the 80s the very top earners paid 80% tax but the tax man got more when the same people paid 40%. The more you tax someone the more they dodge it. The more people you tax however.... If the 50p rate of tax brought in an extra £1 then it justifies its existence.... The idea that the more you tax the more they dodge is a weak one... Many top earners where already plowing a fortune into pension pots etc. Nothing changed, the same level of avoidance happened... The governments own number showed enough money was brought in to pay for 3,000 extra teachers but you won't read much about that Edited March 23, 2012 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4741489.stm http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506329/Junior-doctors-jobs-abroad-second-year-running.html We have a lot of people in the UK and the EU who would love a doctors post in the UK... Doctors are not special... They are valuable, and deserve their pay, but they are not special... We have :censored:ing loads of them going spare... So if the current lot want to exit the UK due to tax then please let them go and lest give the other who want to contribute do just that. I bet VERY few if any have left by the way... Edited March 23, 2012 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) For the 2012/13 tax year, for which the 50p tax band will remain in place, here are some numbers via PAYE. £12k earner will have £1,306 deducted in tax and national insurance. This represents 11% of his earnings. £50k earner will have £14,219 deducted. That's 28%. Earns 4 times as much, but pays 11 times as much in tax and NI. £120k earner will have £46,861 deducted. That's 39%. Earns 10 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 39 times more in deductions. £500k earner will have £241,461 deducted. That's 48%. Earns 42 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 185 times the amount of deductions. £3m earner will have £1,458,539 deducted. That's 51%. Earns 250 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 1,180 times the deductions. Or more likely they've set up their own small company and will be declaring a trading loss completely removing all tax revenue from the Treasury. Edited March 23, 2012 by opinions4u Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) For the 2012/13 tax year, for which the 50p tax band will remain in place, here are some numbers via PAYE. £12k earner will have £1,306 deducted in tax and national insurance. This represents 11% of his earnings. £50k earner will have £14,219 deducted. That's 28%. Earns 4 times as much, but pays 11 times as much in tax and NI. £120k earner will have £46,861 deducted. That's 39%. Earns 10 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 39 times more in deductions. £500k earner will have £241,461 deducted. That's 48%. Earns 42 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 185 times the amount of deductions. £3m earner will have £1,458,539 deducted. That's 51%. Earns 250 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 1,180 times the deductions. Or more likely they've set up their own small company and will be declaring a trading loss completely removing all tax revenue from the Treasury. Your heart bleeds doesn't it.. Going to be tough year for the £3 million guy... or maybe not :P Greedy git I wonder how much "effort" the £3 million guy does compared to the £12k earner... I would imagine a reversal in the percentages but hey thats fair P Edited March 23, 2012 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beag_teeets Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 For the 2012/13 tax year, for which the 50p tax band will remain in place, here are some numbers. £12k earner will have £1,306 deducted in tax and national insurance. This represents 11% of his earnings. £50k earner will have £14,219 deducted. That's 28%. Earns 4 times as much, but pays 11 times as much in tax and NI. £120k earner will have £46,861 deducted. That's 39%. Earns 10 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 39 times more in deductions. £500k earner will have £241,461 deducted. That's 48%. Earns 42 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 185 times the amount of deductions. £3m earner will have £1,458,539 deducted. That's 51%. Earns 250 times as much as the £12k earner but pays 1,180 times the deductions. Or more likely they've set up their own small company and will be declaring a trading loss completely removing all tax revenue from the Treasury. Just to check you've done the sums correctly. The 50% rate only applies on the earnings above £150,000 and so on, the 40% rate only applies to sums earned above £40,000 IIRC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opinions4u Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Just to check you've done the sums correctly. The 50% rate only applies on the earnings above £150,000 and so on, the 40% rate only applies to sums earned above £40,000 IIRC? I think it's around £43k for higher rate tax. You've also got the restriction of personal allowance at £100k. I didn't do the sums. I cheated http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 The numbers are right... The concept of the wealthy paying the most has been a concept we have worked to for a very long time... Not many of them left... I wouldn't worry... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4741489.stm http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506329/Junior-doctors-jobs-abroad-second-year-running.html We have a lot of people in the UK and the EU who would love a doctors post in the UK... Doctors are not special... They are valuable, and deserve their pay, but they are not special... We have :censored:ing loads of them going spare... So if the current lot want to exit the UK due to tax then please let them go and lest give the other who want to contribute do just that. I bet VERY few if any have left by the way... We do have thousands of doctors who want to work in the UK from the EU. But you primarily missed my point the quality is not the same. The quality of doctors who went to medical school outside of Britain in Britain is less than the ones who did regardless of race. Basically it comes down to one thing- do they think in English? If the doctor thinks in English they don't have to translate the patient into their language to make the decision to translate it back into English to communicate that decision to the patient. I'm sure your dentist is good but dentists don't have to communicate anything like as much as doctors and don't have the need for quick decisions. We don't have lots of doctors trained in this country going spare in fact in the 60+ years of the NHS our med schools have never produced enough doctors to meet our demands. Average consultants don't earn £150k pa, to earn £150k pa as a hospital doctor you need to be nationally recognised as being very good (so better than those who work in your field) or be the medical director of the hospital trust (most medical directors are recognised as being regionally very good) which is part of management.. GPs is slightly different it comes down to running a business to earn over £150k. If you want to EU doctors to run the NHS then that's fine personally I want the best doctors we can get and unfortunately that means paying some of them more than £150k pa Edited March 23, 2012 by rudemedic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) There is plenty of English citizens who can't find doctor posts... As for the rest of your post it just comes over as the typical mildly racist that those mucky foreigners aren't as "special" as our boys... Its all bollocks... I have been treated by all sorts over the years within the NHS.. Some of the :censored: was the home grown ones and some of the best where ones who clearly where not born here... Its all luck of the draw... Edited March 23, 2012 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 My dentist is great... Lovely women as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 You have edited your post further I see No one is saying these doctors are not good... or don't deserve their pay... My point is they are replaceable if they wish to let greed consume them... I doubt very few did... or will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 There is plenty of English citizens who can't find doctor posts... As for the rest of your post it just comes over as the typical mildly racist that those mucky foreigners aren't as "special" as our boys... Its all bollocks... I have been treated by all sorts over the years within the NHS.. Some of the :censored: was the home grown ones and some of the best where ones who clearly where not born here... Its all luck of the draw... It's not mildly racist its research. Someone actually did the time and researched the quality of doctors. Lots of English citizens can't find doctor posts true but then again lots of English citizens don't reach the necessary academic standard to get into med school. If you notice I didn't say English citizens I said graduated of British med school. A good friend of mine who is one of the brightest people I know could think in English absolutely fine. He was born in Borneo and after graduating med school in Newcastle went back to Borneo because of the needs of his local population. I don't have a problem with Austrailian, Canadian, Kiwi, Yank, Bok etc med school graduates coming to the UK to work (as they aren't EU they struggle to get in) but most of them earn more money in their home country. You want more EU doctors earning less than British ones be prepared for many more Daniel Urbani's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 You have edited your post further I see No one is saying these doctors are not good... or don't deserve their pay... My point is they are replaceable if they wish to let greed consume them... I doubt very few did... or will... Clicked the wrong button and posted before I finished what I had to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) They are valuable, and deserve their pay No one is saying these doctors are not good... or don't deserve their pay... You want more EU doctors earning less than British ones Try reading what people write... Edited March 23, 2012 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lookers_Carl Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Honest question though oafc0000, opinion aside regarding the 50p tax rate, as a labour voter yourself do you see them as electable, and do you think that they have a chance of returning to power with Ed Miliband as leader and Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ritchie Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Amazon and Play.com prices to increase. No more cheap CD's for us. No cheap booze. No cheap cigs. Drug quality getting worse all the time. What the :censored: do you want me to do with my time you big jawed :censored:ers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Honest question though oafc0000, opinion aside regarding the 50p tax rate, as a labour voter yourself do you see them as electable, and do you think that they have a chance of returning to power with Ed Miliband as leader and Ed Balls as Shadow Chancellor? I think it depends... I have watched almost all of Eds performances at PMQs and he is certainly growing... He has had Cameron on the ropes a number of times... Labour didn't do as bad as I feared they would at the last election... If we assume the Libs are going to die at the next election then there are fair few votes up for grabs. It depends where those votes go doesn't it. They won't be going blue... They go red or some where else. I personally don't like Ed Balls... Ed Milliband is growing though and I am reserving judgement. Now isn't the time... We need to wait until the election comes. I think Ed would do well to drop Balls and get someone decent on the job. I would guess we might be looking at another collation in the future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) [messed up quotey thing] So if the current lot want to exit the UK due to tax then please let them go and lest give the other who want to contribute do just that. I bet VERY few if any have left by the way... In a dramatic change to your usual debating tactics, you are building up a straw man. Instead of fuming against your imaginary opponent who is thinking of moving to another country, think of a high value business employing very highly paid people. If you can offer them the same take home pay at 20% less cost to your business by setting it up or moving it to Frankfurt, Paris or Shanghai then you may very well do it. Then Germany, France or China gets a lot more tax revenue and a group of people spending a lot of money in their economies, and we don't. Edited March 23, 2012 by leeslover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In a dramatic change to your usual debating tactics, you are building up a straw man. Instead of fuming against your imaginary opponent who is thinking of moving to another country, think of a high value business employing very highly paid people. If you can offer them the same take home pay at 20% less cost to your business by setting it up or moving it to Frankfurt, Paris or Shanghai then you may very well do it. Then Germany, France or China gets a lot more tax revenue and a group of people spending a lot of money in their economies, and we don't. But the evidence goes to show they don't... Tories where boasting about the UK have the most millionaire in Europe the other day... So while you are saying "the may very well do"... They don't... They just piss and moan and wait for their tory mates to frig the system to their own advantage... The UK is not a cheap place to do business compared to other places, that is just a fact, but neither is Frankfurt or Paris, they have the exact same issues as us... But we are a highly developed and skilful country and we offer many things to many businesses. As long as that is the case business will be done here regardless of an extra 10 or 5p tax on the pound above shocking levels of pay... Our tax system has never been a deciding factor on how well we do... I would never push the case for 80%+ tax etc... We are talking about an extra 10p over £150,000.... For anyone to suggest that is causing jobs to go elsewhere for me is laughable... Yeah you can go to China and exploit people... But I don't want to get involved in a race to the bottom myself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Try reading what people write... So let me get this right your point is that any doctor being paid £150k pa is replaceable if they go elsewhere to avoid the 50p tax rate but their replacements, won't earn less if they had kept the 50p tax rate. You are happy to have any EU replacements needed so they earn the same (Earning does not equal paying). The doctors being paid >£150k pa are almost guaranteed to have beaten those earning £100-149k pa for the job to be paid >£150k pa or be recognised as being better than them (so the quality won't remain). Those being bought in from the EU won't be as good as a general rule and only so many junior doctors are ready to become consultants every year- you have to replace the ones who do the replacing. Basically your point is that doctors who stop work (not forgetting that many are eligible to retire or can happily stop doing the extra work with extra responsibility that earns them the extra money) because they earn more than £150k pa and are not happy to pay 50p rate of tax are replaceable by those that are. My point is they aren't as a rule otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Plus, lets not forget that re hiring for any job costs money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 But the evidence goes to show they don't... How so? The fact is that the tax raised far less than expected. This can only mean that jobs have gone (out of the country or just gone) in response to the raise, or that new jobs haven't ccome in, or it's made it economical to arrange people's tax arranagements so that they pay a lesser amount in a different way. NB that this is likely to carry on happening over time so that you end up with far less raised by the higher rate. It's been said before without sinking in, the cut to 40p raised a :censored:load more than the higher rates had done. I don't get why you don't want the worlds richest people choosing to pay their tax here rather than somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 So let me get this right your point is that any doctor being paid £150k pa is replaceable if they go elsewhere to avoid the 50p tax rate but their replacements, won't earn less if they had kept the 50p tax rate. You are happy to have any EU replacements needed so they earn the same (Earning does not equal paying). The doctors being paid >£150k pa are almost guaranteed to have beaten those earning £100-149k pa for the job to be paid >£150k pa or be recognised as being better than them (so the quality won't remain). Those being bought in from the EU won't be as good as a general rule and only so many junior doctors are ready to become consultants every year- you have to replace the ones who do the replacing. Basically your point is that doctors who stop work (not forgetting that many are eligible to retire or can happily stop doing the extra work with extra responsibility that earns them the extra money) because they earn more than £150k pa and are not happy to pay 50p rate of tax are replaceable by those that are. My point is they aren't as a rule otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Plus, lets not forget that re hiring for any job costs money. You seem to think the best person always gets the job... The usual thing is you have a number of people who can more than do the job and you cherry pick the one you like best. That one gets the extra £££s and the other sits and waits. It really won't be a big deal to annoy one if the greedy git who is moaning about paying his fair share wants to leave and we give it to the one who was just as able the job... and then that causes a ripple down the chain with a young person at the end finding an open position. I am not proposing anyone has their pay cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) How so? The fact is that the tax raised far less than expected. This can only mean that jobs have gone (out of the country or just gone) in response to the raise, or that new jobs haven't ccome in, or it's made it economical to arrange people's tax arranagements so that they pay a lesser amount in a different way. NB that this is likely to carry on happening over time so that you end up with far less raised by the higher rate. It's been said before without sinking in, the cut to 40p raised a :censored:load more than the higher rates had done. I don't get why you don't want the worlds richest people choosing to pay their tax here rather than somewhere else. It doesn't mean that at all... If its raised less than expected than either the prediction was done on bad numbers or people avoided by one of the many methods available. Nothing more nothing less. Its very simple to avoid. If you are paid £160k. then adjust that to £150 and put the rest into your pension as a employer contribution. Fact is net we raised MORE money by having it. HMRC confirmed this. Edited March 23, 2012 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 You seem to think the best person always gets the job... The usual thing is you have a number of people who can more than do the job and you cherry pick the one you like best. That one gets the extra £££s and the other sits and waits. It really won't be a big deal to annoy one if the greedy git who is moaning about paying his fair share wants to leave and we give it to the one who was just as able the job... and then that causes a ripple down the chain with a young person at the end finding an open position. I am not proposing anyone has their pay cut. Actually for the positions in the NHS the doctors often do- the ones who are paid over £150k for being nationally one of the best (some are one of the best in the world) get the extra money for exactly that. The ones who get the job of medical director (so top consultant in a hospital trust) usually get the job because they are the best candidate- most of the time it isn't a popularity contest its about capability to be capable you HAVE to be popular. If you are unpopular you loose the job. (Moaning publicly about loosing more of the extra money might make you unpopular). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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