Leaner Britain - Austerity is here to stay

[Matt]

At the Lord Mayors Banquet, DC rises from a golden chair and reads from a golden lectern to speak about a leaner Britain.

 

[Zorrro]

They're made out of the wrappers from last year's chocolate coins.

[beag_teeets]

Whilst the profits at certain companies **cough** those who donate to the Tory Party continue to grow....

[Diego_Sideburns]

We are told repeatedly that "there is no alternative”. In 2011, after a year of everyone being exhorted to pull together and share the burden, the wealth of the 1,000 richest individuals in this country, as measured by Murdoch’s Sunday Times, was £395.8bn, equivalent to more than a third of the national debt. The number of billionaires rose from 53 to 73, while 9 people saw their fortune rise by 1 billion between May 2010 and May 2011. In the 2012 Budget, the reduction of the 50p tax rate to 45p handed those among the billionaires and millionaires, whose activities are not classed as ‘morally repugnant’ because they do not avoid paying tax, a nice big windfall. This helped the super-rich to get even richer in 2012, with the wealthiest 1,000 people in the UK bucking the double-dip recession and record unemployment, as their combined wealth rose to £414.26 billion. The figure represented a 4.7% rise on last year and surpassed the previous high of £412.85 billion in 2008, set months before the financial crash from which the rest of Britain has yet to fully recover.

 

The Government admits that tax avoidance amounted to about £42 billion in 2009, but independent analysts estimate the amount of lost tax now to be £120 billion. The super-rich are either paying piffling amounts in tax or escaping tax altogether, as companies are registered in off-shore tax havens. Too many of them are paying less tax than hard-pressed families. The poorest 10% pay a much greater proportion of their income to the Government in tax than the wealthiest 10% (46% compared to 34%). More than a quarter of people who earn more than £10 million a year are paying less tax than workers earning £42,000. 6% of these super-rich pay less than 10% tax, 3% pay only between 10% and 20% and 8% pay only between 20% and 30%.

 

[leeslover]

I say we tax wealthy pensioners and make them pay for the bus.

[beag_teeets]

I say we stop putting a :censored:ing dollar sign on everything.

[Diego_Sideburns]

I say we tax wealthy pensioners and make them pay for the bus.

It's a common misconception that pensioners don't pay tax. Like everyone else, if their pension takes them over the basic tax-free allowance, they pay tax. Wealthy pensioners, like anyone else who is wealthy, should pay the appropriate rate of tax.

 

Bus passes are not issued automatically - they have to be applied for. While wealthy people would probably not be seen dead on a bus, those who do use a bus pass effectively pay for it through their tax. Thanks to those pensioners who use a bus pass, buses are viable and remain in service ready for use by workers.

 

BTW Prince Charles is 65 today and he will get the basic state pension of £110.15, which he is going to donate to charity. I would be amazed if he applies for a bus pass. His state pension will be liable for tax, but as he is definitely in the wealthy category, the question is does he and the other super-rich pay a fair proportion of income as tax compared to the poorest in society?

[Zorrro]

Define 'fair' first and we'll talk.

[Diego_Sideburns]

Define 'fair' first and we'll talk.

What about paying the same proportion for starters?

[Zorrro]

Presumably the 46% you've quoted includes, for example, VAT?

[Diego_Sideburns]

Presumably the 46% you've quoted includes, for example, VAT?

Yes.

[Zorrro]

It's impossible to tax the 'rich' more for comparable goods. Even if it were possible it would be inherently unfair.

[Diego_Sideburns]

It's impossible to tax the 'rich' more for comparable goods. Even if it were possible it would be inherently unfair.

So it has to be done through income.

[rudemedic]

1.) Buses are viable for the majority of workers anyway, its the services that only a small percentage of workers use (because the majority are already in work) that might be less viable and the majority of the passengers on those services are pensioners.

2.) IIRC GMPTE put the prices of the concession fair up by a significant amount for non-pensioners to compensate for the fact that pensioners have free travel.

3.) My Mum is old enough to have free bus travel but for 95% of her bus journeys the tax-payer would be paying anyway as it would go on her expenses.

4.) IMHO the way to organise bus travel for pensioners is for every pensioner to be charged a flat fee, say £20, and then have to claim it back if their earnings are low enough. The Rich pensioners (like my Mum and Dad) won't bother as its not worth their time to do so.

5.) Whilst bus passes are not issued automatically, it seems that the winter fuel allowance is, another perk that wealthy pensioners shouldn't be getting

[Zorrro]

So now we're solely talking about a rise in Income Tax, rather than the issue of 'poor' people proportionally giving more to the Government than 'rich' people.

 

I know lots of people 'poorer' than me, in terms of income, who are, in essence, 'richer' than me. A lot of that is due to a personal decision to have a child. That's a cross I must bear. Why should I potentially be further hamstrung because of a rather arbitrary view on the definition of 'wealth'?

[Diego_Sideburns]

1.) Buses are viable for the majority of workers anyway, its the services that only a small percentage of workers use (because the majority are already in work) that might be less viable and the majority of the passengers on those services are pensioners.

2.) IIRC GMPTE put the prices of the concession fair up by a significant amount for non-pensioners to compensate for the fact that pensioners have free travel.

3.) My Mum is old enough to have free bus travel but for 95% of her bus journeys the tax-payer would be paying anyway as it would go on her expenses.

4.) IMHO the way to organise bus travel for pensioners is for every pensioner to be charged a flat fee, say £20, and then have to claim it back if their earnings are low enough. The Rich pensioners (like my Mum and Dad) won't bother as its not worth their time to do so.

5.) Whilst bus passes are not issued automatically, it seems that the winter fuel allowance is, another perk that wealthy pensioners shouldn't be getting

1.) We seem to agree that buses are viable when workers are traveling, but if the pensioners weren't using them during the working day, some of the buses would have been removed, reducing the number available for workers.

2.) I have never heard of this! Pensioners travel free, but the bus company receives money for from the pass-issuing local authority for each pensioner traveling. The local authority's money comes from tax payers (Government grants and council tax) which include pensioners.

3.) Bus-traveling tax-paying pensioners are effectively paying for their bus pass, rather than paying for other services they don't use.

4.) That would be fair.

5.) Agreed.

[Diego_Sideburns]

So now we're solely talking about a rise in Income Tax, rather than the issue of 'poor' people proportionally giving more to the Government than 'rich' people.

 

I know lots of people 'poorer' than me, in terms of income, who are, in essence, 'richer' than me. A lot of that is due to a personal decision to have a child. That's a cross I must bear. Why should I potentially be further hamstrung because of a rather arbitrary view on the definition of 'wealth'?

Are you talking about the super-rich to which I referred?

[Zorrro]

It doesn't really matter. It's their money, they can do what they like with it.

[rudemedic]

1.) We seem to agree that buses are viable when workers are traveling, but if the pensioners weren't using them during the working day, some of the buses would have been removed, reducing the number available for workers.

2.) I have never heard of this! Pensioners travel free, but the bus company receives money for from the pass-issuing local authority for each pensioner traveling. The local authority's money comes from tax payers (Government grants and council tax) which include pensioners.

3.) Bus-traveling tax-paying pensioners are effectively paying for their bus pass, rather than paying for other services they don't use.

4.) That would be fair.

5.) Agreed.

Bus companies make money at Peak times and probably run at a loss or make less money at non peak times. Therefore by eliminating or reducing the services in the day, the bus companies will make more money and that can be spent on more services at peak times.

You might not have heard about it but I saw the signs with my own eyes, maybe the bus services don't have the same situation in Burton?

Everybody who pays tax contributes to free-travel for pensioners but why should only the pensioners benefit from free travel? That is age discrimination.

[jimsleftfoot]

It doesn't really matter. It's their money, they can do what they like with it.

Even evade taxation (and in some cases avoid)?

Edited November 14, 2013 by jimsleftfoot

[Zorrro]

Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

If someone wants to legally avoid tax, fair play to them.

[Roger Ritchie]

Just make Vodaphone, Starbucks and the rest of them pay their dues.

 

Otherwise tell them they can't operate in Britain.

[jimsleftfoot]

Shouldn't it be the other way around?

 

If someone wants to legally avoid tax, fair play to them.

No it was meant that way. Some cases of avoidance are in effect evasion which hasn't been legislated against. Because of the complexities involved, it can be hard to close loopholes.

[jimsleftfoot]

Just make Vodaphone, Starbucks and the rest of them pay their dues.

 

Otherwise tell them they can't operate in Britain.

They would argue they are.

[leeslover]

No it was meant that way. Some cases of avoidance are in effect evasion which hasn't been legislated against. Because of the complexities involved, it can be hard to close loopholes.

Bastards, breaking laws which don't exist.

 

Back on topic there has been no austerity, public spending is rising. If Dave means they are going to carry on trying to spend less he's like every chief exec in the world.