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Just incase you was where your tax money was going...


OAFCM35

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When Farage was campaigning in Heywood the other month, he was snapped in my local at around noon, possibly earlier as the landlord had opened up for them especially. He was still there 5 hours later.

 

I don't know about you but I'd rather not vote for a :censored: who spends his working day, during one of his busiest periods in the year in a pub.

He sounds like the most working class candidate we have got the option of electing to be fair.

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He sounds like the most working class candidate we have got the option of electing to be fair.

So the public school educated son of a stockbroker is the most relatively working class candidate is he?

 

 

 

Thinking about it- possibly unless you live in Wales/Scotland considering the competition. Well at least until Labour get rid of Ed, unless they replace him with Harriet that is.

 

BTW I don't think it's a coincidence that my local is the local for the posh bit of Heywood. He wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in most of the other pubs.

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So the public school educated son of a stockbroker is the most relatively working class candidate is he?

 

 

 

Thinking about it- possibly unless you live in Wales/Scotland considering the competition. Well at least until Labour get rid of Ed, unless they replace him with Harriet that is.

 

BTW I don't think it's a coincidence that my local is the local for the posh bit of Heywood. He wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in most of the other pubs.

For me UKIP are the best of a bad bunch, whilst I agree with their policies, I don't want Farage to be prime minster he causes to many issues for himself and his party by saying idiotic things "bongo bongo land" however I will be voting UKIP in the hope that if enough of us do that it will intimidate one of the big 3 into changing their stance of the EU.

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Labour has all but given up on the left, and the Greens are the radical left - it's a tough choice. The Greens don't seem to cut it on fundamentals like foreign policy, realistic energy strategy, and budget deficit, amongst a whole lot of others.

 

I think Labour are having a bit of identity crisis myself, they are tore between the unions that voted Ed in and those that want them to occupy the centre where they have a chance of winning the election.... and of course they have got Ed who doesn't help.

 

The Green Party do have some radical solutions but they have also some more moderate views as well. As they are unlikely to win an election, I don't fear them bankrupting us, but it might be interesting to see them given chance to interact more with the general public e.g. in live debates. You never know, they might start moderating some of those solutions.

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BTW I don't think it's a coincidence that my local is the local for the posh bit of Heywood. He wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in most of the other pubs.

 

Having moved from Norden to Heywood in the last 6 months...

 

Where is the posh bit of heywood?!

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For me UKIP are the best of a bad bunch, whilst I agree with their policies, I don't want Farage to be prime minster he causes to many issues for himself and his party by saying idiotic things "bongo bongo land" however I will be voting UKIP in the hope that if enough of us do that it will intimidate one of the big 3 into changing their stance of the EU.

Well that's you fooled then. They are all the :censored:ing same. Keeping the working class where they are, paying more tax, at each others throats, creating false enemies, scaremongering, it's a class war more than ever. Call me an old fashioned 1970's militant, but I know when I'm being :censored:ing taken for a ride.

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Having moved from Norden to Heywood in the last 6 months...

Where is the posh bit of heywood?!

Well there's the bit of Bamford that's actually in Heywood, something as a Nordenite I'm sure you are aware of.

 

It's more Birch/Hopwood that I was thinking of.

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Anyone ever noticed how many of the top tax bracket paying, life saving, cheese sniffing doctors weren't born in this fair land?

 

Not that i don't think some doctors from here and abroad are vital to the NHS, but I did read somewhere that more than half of the said doctors are below their british counterparts standards.

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Not that i don't think some doctors from here and abroad are vital to the NHS, but I did read somewhere that more than half of the said doctors are below their british counterparts standards.

Twice the number of doctors on half the pay with slightly lower standards might not actually be such a bad thing. You'd actually get to see one for a start.
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Anyone ever noticed how many of the top tax bracket paying, life saving, cheese sniffing doctors weren't born in this fair land?

 

Not that i don't think some doctors from here and abroad are vital to the NHS, but I did read somewhere that more than half of the said doctors are below their british counterparts standards.

1.) It's not always easy to tell someone's place of birth by their name and ethnicity.

2.) I can guarantee that there has been some journalistic license involved in that. There is some compelling evidence that doctors for whom English is not their first language and who trained outside the UK as an undergraduate are not as good as their British counterparts, but it is not as much as half. Furthermore the standards across different British Medical Schools are noticeably different when taking into consideration the pass rate at the first postgraduate exams.

3.) You force the NHS to be staffed entirely by EEA citizens, then watch your taxes increase significantly and the quality of care, especially in some hospitals decrease beyond measure.

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Twice the number of doctors on half the pay with slightly lower standards might not actually be such a bad thing. You'd actually get to see one for a start.

 

Indeed, and why do you think we have such a shortage of british born doctors? I wonder if they are all emigrating (working less hours for more pay) taking retirement at 50 ish or, working in the private sector.

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1.) It's not always easy to tell someone's place of birth by their name and ethnicity.

2.) I can guarantee that there has been some journalistic license involved in that. There is some compelling evidence that doctors for whom English is not their first language and who trained outside the UK as an undergraduate are not as good as their British counterparts, but it is not as much as half. Furthermore the standards across different British Medical Schools are noticeably different when taking into consideration the pass rate at the first postgraduate exams.

3.) You force the NHS to be staffed entirely by EEA citizens, then watch your taxes increase significantly and the quality of care, especially in some hospitals decrease beyond measure.

 

@ point 2, Probably depends where you read the story. I must admit, i didn't do much research i just remembered the story.

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Indeed, and why do you think we have such a shortage of british born doctors? I wonder if they are all emigrating (working less hours for more pay) taking retirement at 50 ish or, working in the private sector.

It takes a minimum of 5 years at University and then 5 years postgraduate training to become a Doctor who can practice without supervision, and that's a GP.

For hospital specialties it can take up to 10 years postgraduate training to become eligible to apply for a Consultant job.

Factor time out of training to do research, get another degree, either as a student or as a qualified doctor, plus other delays such as personal circumstances and not being able to progress automatically and those 5 years and 10 years get extended.

 

Sometime in the mid 90s it was recognised that in this country we weren't producing anywhere near as many doctors as would be required, especially as lots of the doctors who we recruited into the NHS in the 60s from the commonwealth countries would soon be retiring. The government increased both the number of medical school places by expanding existing medical schools and creating new ones as well as widening the access to medical schools amongst the more deprived areas, especially those deprived areas that were "local" to a medical school. That expansion began in earnest some time in the early part of this century and was completed to it's current level sometime around 2007. As those people who were part of this expansion are still to all complete their medical training, and some won't until 2022 (or possibly longer) we are going to be short of "British" doctors until then.

 

Furthermore due to European employment law, an EEA national has the same employment rights as a UK national, this means that there are EEA nationals who are out-competing the UK nationals as part of the numerous competitive entry processes in medical training.

 

Also there was a piece of research that suggested for every 3 women doctors you only need 2 men doctors to do the same amount of work. As students at medical school are up to 70% female for various reasons, according to that piece of research we may still need more doctors. However, that research may be out-of-date, and may become even more out-of-date when new maternity/paternity regulations become enforced on 1st April 2015.

 

Furthermore there are some roles in the NHS that require a doctor to take time out of their clinical work to complete, the number of these jobs has probably increased since 1990, especially given the changes in medical training that have happened since then.

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It takes a minimum of 5 years at University and then 5 years postgraduate training to become a Doctor who can practice without supervision, and that's a GP.

For hospital specialties it can take up to 10 years postgraduate training to become eligible to apply for a Consultant job.

Factor time out of training to do research, get another degree, either as a student or as a qualified doctor, plus other delays such as personal circumstances and not being able to progress automatically and those 5 years and 10 years get extended.

 

Sometime in the mid 90s it was recognised that in this country we weren't producing anywhere near as many doctors as would be required, especially as lots of the doctors who we recruited into the NHS in the 60s from the commonwealth countries would soon be retiring. The government increased both the number of medical school places by expanding existing medical schools and creating new ones as well as widening the access to medical schools amongst the more deprived areas, especially those deprived areas that were "local" to a medical school. That expansion began in earnest some time in the early part of this century and was completed to it's current level sometime around 2007. As those people who were part of this expansion are still to all complete their medical training, and some won't until 2022 (or possibly longer) we are going to be short of "British" doctors until then.

 

Furthermore due to European employment law, an EEA national has the same employment rights as a UK national, this means that there are EEA nationals who are out-competing the UK nationals as part of the numerous competitive entry processes in medical training.

 

Also there was a piece of research that suggested for every 3 women doctors you only need 2 men doctors to do the same amount of work. As students at medical school are up to 70% female for various reasons, according to that piece of research we may still need more doctors. However, that research may be out-of-date, and may become even more out-of-date when new maternity/paternity regulations become enforced on 1st April 2015.

 

Furthermore there are some roles in the NHS that require a doctor to take time out of their clinical work to complete, the number of these jobs has probably increased since 1990, especially given the changes in medical training that have happened since then.

 

Thanks for that Rudemedic, Like i said, I hadn't done much research but the qualified doctors are emigrating, retiring early and moving into the private sector, This makes me wonder if the newly qualified will be doing the same.

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Thanks for that Rudemedic, Like i said, I hadn't done much research but the qualified doctors are emigrating, retiring early and moving into the private sector, This makes me wonder if the newly qualified will be doing the same.

No on points 2 and 3. A lot of those retiring early are doing so because they can whilst the pensions (a massive cost to the public sector) are being changed. Some are then coming back into the NHS/other work but without their pension being contributed to. To do private work you have to be a consultant, and usually have to be a consultant for a good few years, doing private work is not the drain on the NHS that some make it out to be, there are very few doctors doing solely private work and a lot that do private work do so when their usual work has finished for the day. Plus there is the issue of only being able to treat one patient at a time, an orthopedic surgeon can only replace joints on one patient at a time. It moves someone from towards the back of the waiting list to the front and actually prevents skilled employees becoming de-skilled and therefore can be beneficial to the NHS occasionally. Most of the extra money that senior doctors get on top in recognition of their expertise/longer hours discounts private work, so therefore those doctors don't tend to get as much money that way.

 

Privatisation of the NHS is a massive issue, but the problem isn't with the doctors, it's the other services and functions of the NHS.

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No on points 2 and 3. A lot of those retiring early are doing so because they can whilst the pensions (a massive cost to the public sector) are being changed. Some are then coming back into the NHS/other work but without their pension being contributed to. To do private work you have to be a consultant, and usually have to be a consultant for a good few years, doing private work is not the drain on the NHS that some make it out to be, there are very few doctors doing solely private work and a lot that do private work do so when their usual work has finished for the day. Plus there is the issue of only being able to treat one patient at a time, an orthopedic surgeon can only replace joints on one patient at a time. It moves someone from towards the back of the waiting list to the front and actually prevents skilled employees becoming de-skilled and therefore can be beneficial to the NHS occasionally. Most of the extra money that senior doctors get on top in recognition of their expertise/longer hours discounts private work, so therefore those doctors don't tend to get as much money that way.

 

Privatisation of the NHS is a massive issue, but the problem isn't with the doctors, it's the other services and functions of the NHS.

Cheers, for a moment I thought top doctors were running a huge self-serving scam.
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