Latics and England Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Just been reading this article on Charlton and the 1st paragraph sounded very familiar. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jan/23/charlton-athletic-blackburn-rovers-championship-match-report I don't know much about their situation and so am certainly not in a position to comment on whether they are having it much worse than us but it is interesting to see their fans' reaction compared to ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBlue Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 From what I gather about Charlton, their owners have incorporated them into a football syndicate, similar to Watford, where they hire and fire unknown managers at will, players are signed from their partner clubs and results are going the wrong way. It's a systematic erosion of their identity. Corney would never get that reaction because of his long history with the club, not to mention the apathy among fans and the town. Nor do we have any attractive qualities to a buyer, it seems. Could argue it would be futile. What's more likely is a football hiatus for many. Season-ticket sales are going to plummet next season - I doubt I will attend another home fixture for the foreseeable future, as it's not worth the mood it puts you in - and the same probably echoes with other pay-on-the-dayers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteg999 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Investment is needed to get our club on the move again regardless of where it comes from.It is a rumour that there is a potential investor but he/she/they will only invest if the club is debt free so possible administration and the loss of 10 points equates to league 2 football and build again but I think that will only happen when we are unable to escape the drop mathematically . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Iv'e been told this by a couple of people, one on the train from Bradford and one in the business suite yesterday. Both have connections with Paul Whitehead (PCW) who it is said is owed £400k by the club. How would administration affect that particular debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAV Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 We are going down anyway. So take the 12 point hit now and start planning for next season. As for the people the club owe money to, I don't know what happens, someone on here could clear that up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 We've been going into administration for years and it hasn't happened, let it go lads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nonaenever Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 To clear up actually what Administration means - it is a form of insolvency - simply put, to be insolvent an entity has to be in a position to be unable to pay its debts as they are due. As long as Latics pay their creditors (or reach mutually agreeable terms to do so) they won't go into Administration. You can't just choose it as an option! A creditor (usually Customs and Excise in most cases) will apply to a court for winding-up. An Administrator, if appointed, has a duty to realise the best he can for creditors e.g. by selling assets etc - or trying to run as a going concern pending a buyer - and creditors usually end up with a % payable of what they are owed e.g. 40pence in the £. There are all kinds of insolvency e.g. CVA (company voluntary arrangement) etc. not just Administration - it's just that Administration is the usual route when you went a company to continue afterwards - it can however end up in liquidation too. Don't think a football club has ever tried a CVA - but it is a viable option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Iv'e been told this by a couple of people, one on the train from Bradford and one in the business suite yesterday. Both have connections with Paul Whitehead (PCW) who it is said is owed £400k by the club. How would administration affect that particular debt? Paul's not the only one owed money by the club, someone I know is owed £70k. Administration means a 10 point penalty and those owed money don't get all of it back. It is usually HMRC that forces clubs into administration, as those small business owners who are owed money know they will automatically lose some if they force administration. Keep paying the taxman and the club will be fine for a period, when we stop paying the taxman is when we'll be in trouble for administration. £400k is a lot of money for anyone to lose though and £40k being paid back is better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc1955 Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 So it's fair to say any potential money from a Tarkowski sale is already spent!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_blue Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Paul's not the only one owed money by the club, someone I know is owed £70k. Administration means a 10 point penalty and those owed money don't get all of it back. It is usually HMRC that forces clubs into administration, as those small business owners who are owed money know they will automatically lose some if they force administration. Keep paying the taxman and the club will be fine for a period, when we stop paying the taxman is when we'll be in trouble for administration. £400k is a lot of money for anyone to lose though and £40k being paid back is better than nothing. 12 point deduction now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapegoat Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Remember seeing a table a few years back in an article (had a quick Google and cannot find it again for reference) that showed at the time the current Football League and Premiership clubs that had "gone bust" aka gone in to administration and had restructured their debts. As I recall, it showed the debt before the administration, the debt afterwards, and therefore the total and % debt that was cleared through the process. Middlesborough topped the table for getting rid of the most of their debts (something like 60% I think) and propping up the table, absolute rock bottom were.......you guessed it: Oldham Athletic. I think after going into administration and coming out the other side we only reduced our total debts by 15%. I remember thinking "We are a Mickey Mouse club, we cannot even go bust correctly". Obviously the rules have changed with the 10, and now apparently 12, point deductions. Would our situation really be helped by doing this? We seem to make a profit (independent article) and therefore seem to be able to cope at the moment, the majority of the debt is owed to the owners and has a when we are in the PremierLeague/never in a month of Sundays clause attached to it. Which being honest, with the TV deal, £6m debt is not going to be an issue if somehow this unlikely event ever happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Remember seeing a table a few years back in an article (had a quick Google and cannot find it again for reference) that showed at the time the current Football League and Premiership clubs that had "gone bust" aka gone in to administration and had restructured their debts. As I recall, it showed the debt before the administration, the debt afterwards, and therefore the total and % debt that was cleared through the process. Middlesborough topped the table for getting rid of the most of their debts (something like 60% I think) and propping up the table, absolute rock bottom were.......you guessed it: Oldham Athletic. I think after going into administration and coming out the other side we only reduced our total debts by 15%. I remember thinking "We are a Mickey Mouse club, we cannot even go bust correctly". Obviously the rules have changed with the 10, and now apparently 12, point deductions. Would our situation really be helped by doing this? We seem to make a profit (independent article) and therefore seem to be able to cope at the moment, the majority of the debt is owed to the owners and has a when we are in the PremierLeague/never in a month of Sundays clause attached to it. Which being honest, with the TV deal, £6m debt is not going to be an issue if somehow this unlikely event ever happened. We only make a profit if we achieve cup ties at decent Premier League clubs! We are, I suspect running at substantial losses now and have been for a while! Edited January 25, 2016 by ChaddySmoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 It wouldn't make sense for Corney, Blitz and Gazal to let the club go into administration, as the biggest debts are owed to them. Far better to keep it running as a self-sufficient entity (i.e. decaying due to lack of investment) whilst they make money on the stand and property, leaving the massive 'borrowing' intact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapegoat Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) We only make a profit if we achieve cup ties at decent Premier League clubs! We are, I suspect running at substantial losses now and have been for a while! Perhaps so - based this on the recent article that claimed a £400k profit in the last year and we were knocked out by Doncaster in the FA cup last season so no great cup windfall that season. Would imagine that with LJ compensation, Philliskirk sale and potentially Tarky payout it would be another season of profit this year. The term 'selling club' has always been used for the lower leagues for teams that have needed to sell players to balance the books, we are no different. Other than we have stopped producing players to sell that is Edited January 25, 2016 by Scapegoat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 It wouldn't make sense for Corney, Blitz and Gazal to let the club go into administration, as the biggest debts are owed to them. Far better to keep it running as a self-sufficient entity (i.e. decaying due to lack of investment) whilst they make money on the stand and property, leaving the massive 'borrowing' intact. I thought it was just me... The next 2-3 years are payback time for the lads, if we are in League 2 or worse then all the better for them as their outgoings will be reduced further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deyres42 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Perhaps so - based this on the recent article that claimed a £400k profit in the last year and we were knocked out by Doncaster in the FA cup last season so no great cup windfall that season. Would imagine that with LJ compensation, Philliskirk sale and potentially Tarky payout it would be another season of profit this year. The term 'selling club' has always been used for the lower leagues for teams that have needed to sell players to balance the books, we are no different. Other than we have stopped producing players to sell that is Will the profit not be relating to 2013/14 season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losesome Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 The only people that could force us into administration are the ones we owe money too , according to the latest report we only owe the 3 amigos so i don't understand why people are saying go into administration !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) It wouldn't make sense for Corney, Blitz and Gazal to let the club go into administration, as the biggest debts are owed to them. Far better to keep it running as a self-sufficient entity (i.e. decaying due to lack of investment) whilst they make money on the stand and property, leaving the massive 'borrowing' intact. But what about other Creditors? Will the profit not be relating to 2013/14 season? The profit related to the last set off Accounts which covered 12 months to 30th June 2014, so yes We went to Anfield on 6th January 2014 Edited January 25, 2016 by ChaddySmoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaddySmoker Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 The only people that could force us into administration are the ones we owe money too , according to the latest report we only owe the 3 amigos so i don't understand why people are saying go into administration !!!! How up to date is that report? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics and England Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share Posted January 25, 2016 In the latest accounts (to June 2014), we had creditors of £8.2m but due to our size we only need to file abreviated accounts and so there is no detail behind the split so it is not possible to state how much of that is owed to Blitz and Gazal. Although we have nothing more recent than that, we do know that charges were made against the club in December 2015 by both Brass Bank Ltd and Necarcu Ltd so we must have taken out some additional borrowing, including to a party not owned and controlled by the former owners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) In the latest accounts (to June 2014), we had creditors of £8.2m but due to our size we only need to file abreviated accounts and so there is no detail behind the split so it is not possible to state how much of that is owed to Blitz and Gazal. Although we have nothing more recent than that, we do know that charges were made against the club in December 2015 by both Brass Bank Ltd and Necarcu Ltd so we must have taken out some additional borrowing, including to a party not owned and controlled by the former owners. I've not seen Necarcu before. But their officers history is interesting. Basically, they apprear to be brothers. One acts as Legal, one as Director of over a dozen companies. They last a short period of time often, Especially the legal brother who is often a month or so. Quite often the companies are dissoved after a few months. They live in a £1/2m house in Liverpool, and the registered office is residential. There might be links to others linked with us in the past but I cannot see anything at first glance. I am guessings somewhat, but on first glance, they are involved front quite a few bsuiness of wide ranging types. There is not such a clear pattern of type. Others on here are much more familiar with ownership ramifications, so they are better placed to comment, happy to be corrected. They don't seem to be huge money lenders though, more short term. mm. One company involved is Liverpool crashPAds, who specialise in ticket, accomodation and hospitality. The only person that springs to mind who seems to have a link with that sort of activity is the company David Dunn is partner at Prestige Life UK. Very tenuous i know. No suggestion. I suppose (more likely) it could relate to ticket and entry systems, and maybe marketing arrangements for the new stand. Edited January 25, 2016 by singe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP1960 Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Perhaps so - based this on the recent article that claimed a £400k profit in the last year and we were knocked out by Doncaster in the FA cup last season so no great cup windfall that season. Would imagine that with LJ compensation, Philliskirk sale and potentially Tarky payout it would be another season of profit this year. The term 'selling club' has always been used for the lower leagues for teams that have needed to sell players to balance the books, we are no different. Other than we have stopped producing players to sell that is There's a new crop of promising youth emerging so maybe there will be some silver to sell in future? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostofcecere Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 It wouldn't make sense for Corney, Blitz and Gazal to let the club go into administration, as the biggest debts are owed to them. Far better to keep it running as a self-sufficient entity (i.e. decaying due to lack of investment) whilst they make money on the stand and property, leaving the massive 'borrowing' intact.This! No football club = no return on investment from the new stand. They would be 100% shooting themselves in the foot if administration occurred. As long as we pay HMRC it's massively unlikely we will ever go into administration. Those who say we are clearly don't understand what it means and what the mechanism is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarddog73 Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 This! No football club = no return on investment from the new stand. They would be 100% shooting themselves in the foot if administration occurred. As long as we pay HMRC it's massively unlikely we will ever go into administration. Those who say we are clearly don't understand what it means and what the mechanism is. The football club probably has nothing to do with OEC if we went into administration, or am I getting the wrong end of the stick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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