The EU referendum - 23rd June

[piglinbland]

My heart says 'out', my head says 'in'.

 

Backtrack to the early '70's – Heath wanted in, Benn, hard left, wanted out, because he felt that the Common Market mechanism would not accommodate democratically elected members.

I remember number taking at the local polling station at the time of this referendum and it's a sobering thought to remember how patriots like Tony Benn and Michael Foot were reviled in the press at the time for daring to stand up for British jobs.

.

In the '90's, the Maastricht treaty was signed and the door was opened for free circulation within the European Union, free trade and the many reciprocal agreements that accompanied the treaty.

 

In 1992 the world watched as the Balkans imploded and the EU (as well as the UN) seemed incapable of responding. No one thought this could happen so close to home. Subsequently, 28 states adhere to the EU – Poland is in (11 years) whilst Turkey still hopes to join– both having (or had) human rights issues.

 

So what does Europe offer the UK?

 

Large investment in Britain – it's a myth that we pay more than we receive, ie. Washington (Nissan) Scotland, Dublin etc etc.

Involvement in the European space programme.

Airbus.

CERN – Higgs-Boson and so forth.

European charter of human rights.

European satellite programme.

A population greater than the U.S.A.

A European army larger than that of the U.S.A.

etc etc.

 

To say that Britain depends on the Anglo-Saxon world is a misnomer in so far as that although Britain created the anglo-Saxon world., Britain is European - culturally, geographically and spiritually.

 

What would happen if Britain were to withdraw from the EU?

 

Would the French abandon border control at Calais, Dunkirk and so forth, leaving Britain with the thorny problem of recreating 'the Jungle' in the South of England?

 

Would Scotland (and the Welsh) push again for independence, requiring further border control?

 

Would Britain's withdrawal lead to the renouncing of human rights issues ie. minimum wage etc. which would only end up affecting the popular classes (who would vote 'out' in the first place, irony of ironies)?

 

Seems to me that much as I cherish my heritage, there is no way to survive outside of the EU – unless someone can enlighten me?

Edited April 8, 2016 by piglinbland

[Stagger Lee]

Just wish there was a "stay in the EU with Guaranteed massive changes option"

 

Used to be a big fan of the common market - back in the day

[Stagger Lee]

My heart says 'out', my head says 'in'.

 

Backtrack to the early '70's – Heath wanted in, Benn, hard left, wanted out, because he felt that the Common Market mechanism would not accommodate democratically elected members.

I remember number taking at the local polling station at the time of this referendum and it's a sobering thought to remember how patriots like Tony Benn and Michael Foot were reviled in the press at the time for daring to stand up for British jobs.

.

In the '90's, the Maastricht treaty was signed and the door was opened for free circulation within the European Union, free trade and the many reciprocal agreements that accompanied the treaty.

 

In 1992 the world watched as the Balkans imploded and the EU (as well as the UN) seemed incapable of responding. No one thought this could happen so close to home. Subsequently, 28 states adhere to the EU – Poland is in (11 years) whilst Turkey still hopes to join– both having (or had) human rights issues.

 

So what does Europe offer the UK?

 

Large investment in Britain – it's a myth that we pay more than we receive, ie. Washington (Nissan) Scotland, Dublin etc etc.

Involvement in the European space programme.

Airbus.

CERN – Higgs-Boson and so forth.

European charter of human rights.

European satellite programme.

A population greater than the U.S.A.

A European army larger than that of the U.S.A.

etc etc.

 

To say that Britain depends on the Anglo-Saxon world is a misnomer in so far as that although Britain created the anglo-Saxon world., Britain is European - culturally, geographically and spiritually.

 

What would happen if Britain were to withdraw from the EU?

 

Would the French abandon border control at Calais, Dunkirk and so forth, leaving Britain with the thorny problem of recreating 'the Jungle' in the South of England?

 

Would Scotland (and the Welsh) push again for independence, requiring further border control?

 

Would Britain's withdrawal lead to the renouncing of human rights issues ie. minimum wage etc. which would only end up affecting the popular classes (who would vote 'out' in the first place, irony of ironies)?

 

Seems to me that much as I cherish my heritage, there is no way to survive outside of the EU – unless someone can enlighten me?

We seem to survive just fine outside of it in Australia and we are just a small population of about 23 million. Our nearest neighbour is the worlds biggest Muslim nation (Indonesia) Our region is Asia - where we look, act funny, and have different values comparative to their norm. Standing alone in the world is not that hard to do.

 

And when Britain flushed away it's commonwealth (Australia / Canada / NZ ect) to jump into the Euro bedroom there was a period of change for a few years and since then Australia has kicked along just fine.

 

Don't be scared of change itself - just be sure that the change is what you want.

[Monty Burns]

Out.

If the government wants us in then, logically, the best thing for the people must be to leave.

[blueatheart]

I'm voting out.

 

Parliament should be sovereign above all else. The EU does come with benefits but a line has to be drawn somewhere and for me that line was drawn when the EU stopped being a common market and started being a legislature. Power on the extremes of the micro and macro level simply doesn't work.

 

Labour devolved power to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. The Tories have gone a stage further with some powers to (in particular) Devo-Manc. If powers are so sought after at a local level, why would people want to be beholden to the behemoth that is the EU over the top of it all?

 

I could go on about immigration, open borders, the cost of the damn thing, the single currency, the lack of growth in the EU economy, the unemployment across the EU (especially youth unemployment), the bloody Germans, the amount of onerous legislation and the bailouts. But I don't have the time.

 

There are without a doubt positives to being in the EU, but they do not outweigh the benefits of being out of the EU.

[Oafc88]

I've voted in but I'm not convinced by either campaign. The 'in' argument seems to suggest more of the same (the good and the bad). The 'out' don't seem to know what will happen. I think we would be okay but whether we are better or worse off than now no one seems to know. They've offered about 3 different countries (Canada, Sweden and Switzerland I think) we 'could' be like which suggests to me they have no idea what we do once we leave. My point being I'm all for change but lets have a concrete plan rather than just blindly leaving. Out of the frying pan....

[HarryBosch]

So what does Europe offer the UK?

 

Large investment in Britain – it's a myth that we pay more than we receive, ie. Washington (Nissan) Scotland, Dublin etc etc.

 

Why would a company in the business of making money not still come/stay here if we were out of the EU and made it attractive for them to do so?

 

Involvement in the European space programme. - Nice but, who cares? Doesn't put food on anyone's table

Airbus. - Like Nissan - why could we not make/use these from outside the EU?

CERN – Higgs-Boson and so forth. - See Space Programme

European charter of human rights. - We were hardly North Korea before it and wouldn't be without it

European satellite programme. - See CERN

A population greater than the U.S.A. - What's that got to do with anything?

A European army larger than that of the U.S.A. - Eh?

etc etc.

 

To say that Britain depends on the Anglo-Saxon world is a misnomer in so far as that although Britain created the anglo-Saxon world., Britain is European - culturally, geographically and spiritually. - I don't think any of that matters Portugal and Germany are worlds apart culturally & spiritually

 

What would happen if Britain were to withdraw from the EU?

 

Would the French abandon border control at Calais, Dunkirk and so forth, leaving Britain with the thorny problem of recreating 'the Jungle' in the South of England?

 

There's the small matters of 21+ miles of sea and a heavily patrolled tunnel in between. Plus non-membership of the EU could mean immigrants are no longer heading to Calais anyway in order to get here for various reasons...

 

Would Scotland (and the Welsh) push again for independence, requiring further border control?

 

I imagine they will but I doubt we'll need to refortify Hadrian's Wall if they do

 

Would Britain's withdrawal lead to the renouncing of human rights issues ie. minimum wage (is that a human right?)etc. which would only end up affecting the popular classes (who would vote 'out' in the first place, irony of ironies)?

 

 

Seems to me that much as I cherish my heritage, there is no way to survive outside of the EU – unless someone can enlighten me?

 

Regarding your dramatic last point - nothing you've said in your detailed post has led me to see why you'd think that....

[HarryBosch]

I'm voting out.

 

Parliament should be sovereign above all else. The EU does come with benefits

 

 

Such as what....?

[HarryBosch]

They've offered about 3 different countries (Canada, Sweden and Switzerland I think) we 'could' be like which suggests to me they have no idea what we do once we leave.

 

Quickly set up new trade agreements and carry on as normal

[opinions4u]

I seem to remember some politicians telling us our failure to join the Euro would be our doom.

 

The ongoing nonsense being spouted by all sides in this latest debate is depressing.

[LaticsChris]

I must admit I'm very surprised that this poll seems to be leading significantly to an out vote. I've so far spoken to very few people who are contemplating anything other than staying in. Admittedly all within my circle of friends and colleagues, so I suppose they're likely to have similar opinions anyway.

 

I was instinctively a yes, and having read a fair bit in order to get a grasp on the issue I'm probably even more in favour than I was before.

 

Ultimately there's no right answer. We will all vote on the issues that matter to us. Each side will tell us there are great risks associated with the other option, in reality it'll be (just/at least) OK either way, but some of us may decide this isn't a country we want to live in anymore. Some might see the boosting of British industries as a key factor, others may give it less weight whilst giving more weight to the European space programme. It also raises the issues of nationhood, some fiercely defend our sovereignty whilst others struggle to grasp why it matters at all.

 

Basically this is a pretty big decision and quite a complicated issue.

Edited April 8, 2016 by LaticsChris

[HarryBosch]

The other important point here is that in the context of the world as a whole we've got pretty :censored:ing amazing lives compared to the vast majority of humans......

 

So it all seems a bit daft that we're even wasting any time with this :censored:

[HarryBosch]

I must admit I'm very surprised that this poll seems to be leading significantly to an out vote. I've so far spoken to very few people who are contemplating anything other than staying in. Admittedly all within my circle of friends and colleagues, so I suppose they're likely to have similar opinions anyway.

 

I was instinctively a yes, and having read a fair bit in order to get a grasp on the issue I'm probably even more in favour than I was before.

 

Ultimately there's no right answer. We will all vote on the issues that matter to us. Each side will tell us there are great risks associated with the other option, in reality it'll be (just/at least) OK either way, but some of us may decide this isn't a country we want to live in anymore. Some might see the boosting of British industries as a key factor, others may give it less weight whilst giving more weight to the European space programme. It also raises the issues of nationhood, some fiercely defend our sovereignty whilst others struggle to grasp why it matters at all.

 

Basically this is a pretty big decision and quite a complicated issue.

 

Could you tell us why?

[blueatheart]

 

Such as what....?

I'm voting out remember ;)

 

The biggest single benefit I can identify is that membership of the EU (at least in its current guise) means belonging to a "club" that has roughly 500 million members. From the perspective of peace, that is invaluable. No-one wants war and given the historic issues in Europe and around the world today, being able to pretty much guarantee that all 28 member states can sit around a table and work towards a resolution of a given issue can’t just be thrown away.

 

You could quite easily throw NATO or the UN Security Council at that but it isn’t so long since other organisations such as the G7 was a G8. The EU provides binding constitutional protection to all members from each other.

 

(here comes the out bit, I can’t help it)

 

But, we live in an ever changing world. Not so long ago the EU was the EEC and the UN was the League of Nations. Donald Trump could be US president this time next year and Putin could finally go totally crazy.

 

It paints a drastic world picture but with our own defences, NATO and our own permanent seat on the UN Security Council, I don’t think security is a major issue for us when considering whether to stay in the EU.

 

Of course there are other benefits, there really are. I just don't think they are worth it!

[davegtt]

 

Quickly set up new trade agreements and carry on as normal

 

Setting up trade agreements is never "quick" Canadas had a Summit with the EU on 18 March 2004 to set up a framework for negotiations with the EU which didn't actually start until 6 May 2009. It wasnt until the 1st of August 2014 that negotiations were concluded. 10+ years that took.

 

Ok I doubt we would take that long but to get the deal we want to trade etc we will still be giving in to the Freedom of Movement and still be paying into the EU for the pleasure of trading etc. So many negatives and what ifs. Voting for In purely on the basis that I know what I am voting for. Voting out means too much uncertainty. If there was any kind of structure laid out for the out camp, I'd be very interest but until then, Im not.

[davegtt]

By the way, I'm very impressed. I've been on many forums and heard name calling and lots of bickering because people don't know what they are talking about. I see it on this forum when it comes to OAFC matters but I very much like the diplomacy of this thread so far. Even though we are only on page 2 ;)

[LaticsChris]

 

Could you tell us why?

 

I don't think there's much point. None of us are going to change our opinions on the subject based on what a bloke on a football forum says, even if we did share opinions on the best way to utilise Liam Kelly.

 

But as I said, I believe this is very personal and depends on what you value. I've come to the conclusion that the EU can offer a good amount of protection for the least well off in society, whether this be through employment law or regulations affecting benefits etc. I also value the free movement of people and see a lot of the rhetoric regarding us being overrun with immigrants as unfounded. I suppose I'm one of those wanky liberals that sees themselves as both British and European citizens.

 

There are many other reasons that I would struggle to recall from the top off my head, but nonetheless I'm satisfied I'm making the correct decision for me.

[HarryBosch]

By the way, I'm very impressed. I've been on many forums and heard name calling and lots of bickering because people don't know what they are talking about. I see it on this forum when it comes to OAFC matters but I very much like the diplomacy of this thread so far. Even though we are only on page 2 ;)

 

Give it time. I for one will be pissed and armed with the internet at some point this weekend

[leeslover]

Airbus would quickly lose market share to Boeing if they delivered planes with no wings

[HarryBosch]

Not actually about the EU but a lot of this could be relevant I reckon....

 

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56eddde762cd9413e151ac92/56f251ef74e8d670d36b9188/56f2522774e8d670d36bb7a1/1458721319725/madsen_pirie_-_2050_online.pdf?format=original

[HarryBosch]

Airbus would quickly lose market share to Boeing if they delivered planes with no wings

 

I don't know - Always Ultra's are still going strong.....

[Wozzer]

It's a real conundrum for me this one. My natural inclination is towards euro scepticism but then I remember my golden rule of never ever agreeing with anything Boris Johnson says. I'll probably abstain.

[Downender]

Out.

If the government wants us in then, logically, the best thing for the people must be to leave.

this...

[GlossopLatic]

By the way, I'm very impressed. I've been on many forums and heard name calling and lots of bickering because people don't know what they are talking about. I see it on this forum when it comes to OAFC matters but I very much like the diplomacy of this thread so far. Even though we are only on page 2 ;)

We've got alot of experience on this board of debating tough subjects e.g. chef Evans which was debated far better on here from both sides than on social media. Knowone has gone down the racism line yet which could well happen within the next 25 pages.

 

While some will want to leave the EU because of fears that immigration is causing an increase in the benefits bill for the UK and that they are taking jobs of British people. It's unfair to label people racist for having these concerns. What I would say is that these concerns are unfounded statistically EU immigrants are far more likely to come here for work and contribute to our economy and take less benefits than people born here. The unemployment rates are also lower here than they are in any of the other G8 nations.

 

It's abit naive to suggest we can just quickly negotiate trade deals on our terms if we were to opt out. The EU won't be that keen to play ball with us for wanting a divorce. The same reason the rest of the UK wouldn't if Scotland went independent it can and will get messy.

 

People are about us being a sovereign country if we went independent. We have hundreds of international agreements the only country that remains sovereign is North Korea. However the EU did not decide on cuts to disability benefits, cuts in tax, air strikes in Syria, changes to the NHS. These are decisions taken in Westminster. This is how it should stay aswell if anything the EU should hand states back more power we are not the only nation that thinks this. Thats why I say we stay in and drive the change.

[piglinbland]

So what does Europe offer the UK?

 

Large investment in Britain – it's a myth that we pay more than we receive, ie. Washington (Nissan) Scotland, Dublin etc etc.

 

Why would a company in the business of making money not still come/stay here if we were out of the EU and made it attractive for them to do so?

 

Involvement in the European space programme. - Nice but, who cares? Doesn't put food on anyone's table

Airbus. - Like Nissan - why could we not make/use these from outside the EU?

CERN – Higgs-Boson and so forth. - See Space Programme

European charter of human rights. - We were hardly North Korea before it and wouldn't be without it

European satellite programme. - See CERN

A population greater than the U.S.A. - What's that got to do with anything?

A European army larger than that of the U.S.A. - Eh?

etc etc.

 

To say that Britain depends on the Anglo-Saxon world is a misnomer in so far as that although Britain created the anglo-Saxon world., Britain is European - culturally, geographically and spiritually. - I don't think any of that matters Portugal and Germany are worlds apart culturally & spiritually

 

What would happen if Britain were to withdraw from the EU?

 

Would the French abandon border control at Calais, Dunkirk and so forth, leaving Britain with the thorny problem of recreating 'the Jungle' in the South of England?

 

There's the small matters of 21+ miles of sea and a heavily patrolled tunnel in between. Plus non-membership of the EU could mean immigrants are no longer heading to Calais anyway in order to get here for various reasons...

 

Would Scotland (and the Welsh) push again for independence, requiring further border control?

 

I imagine they will but I doubt we'll need to refortify Hadrian's Wall if they do

 

Would Britain's withdrawal lead to the renouncing of human rights issues ie. minimum wage (is that a human right?)etc. which would only end up affecting the popular classes (who would vote 'out' in the first place, irony of ironies)?

 

 

Seems to me that much as I cherish my heritage, there is no way to survive outside of the EU – unless someone can enlighten me?

 

The first point I was making was that large tracts of Britain have benefited from heavy EU investment. It is simply not true to suggest that Britain puts in more than she gets out. That said, we could still make it attractive for businesses to implant in the UK by allowing them to pay lower wages than anywhere else.

 

The second point was about the prestige of European achievement. People do care about the space program and it actually puts food on the table of tens of thousands of people. Ditto the particle collider and Higgs-Boson. Probably the 3rd most important breakthrough after Newtonian physics and relativity. Aren't you glad we're involved? Aren't you glad it was in Europe and not America? or China?

 

Likewise, in geo-political terms, the size of the EU makes it a potential superpower - any reduction in it's sphere of influence leads to an increase in the power of it's rivals. Maybe Britain's interests are best served by seizing the steering wheel rather than perennially running home with the football.

 

Ok, so we've managed without the human rights charter before and can manage without it again? I applaud your optimism!

 

Maybe the migrants would cease to flock to Calais and Dunkirk - in the future they may well seek to cross the North Sea and enter the UK via Scotland and her different immigration laws. Or, as you predict - maybe they will no longer see the UK as an attractive destination at all.

 

My sweeping statement at the end is wholly unfounded - of course Britain would survive outside the EU. But I struggle to believe, in the case of an EU exit, that our current crop of politicians are capable of steering us away from further impoverishment and a diminished status.