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The EU referendum - 23rd June


The EU referendum  

216 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want the UK to leave or remain in the EU?

    • Leave the EU
      93
    • Remain in the EU
      102
    • Currently undecided
      21


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We've got alot of experience on this board of debating tough subjects e.g. chef Evans which was debated far better on here from both sides than on social media. Knowone has gone down the racism line yet which could well happen within the next 25 pages.

 

While some will want to leave the EU because of fears that immigration is causing an increase in the benefits bill for the UK and that they are taking jobs of British people. It's unfair to label people racist for having these concerns. What I would say is that these concerns are unfounded statistically EU immigrants are far more likely to come here for work and contribute to our economy and take less benefits than people born here. The unemployment rates are also lower here than they are in any of the other G8 nations.

 

 

We had some Polish friends round on Saturday. Their advice was to vote to leave as "Your country wants cheap workers. Once us Poles go back you'll get the Romanians next".

 

My concern with the employment issue is you've got a generation of young people who would have previously done the jobs Eastern Europeans are doing sat at home doing nothing or going to college for not much apparent reason. These people will be having kids soon and have very little life experience. That's got to have an effect on society now and in the future...

I worked in all sorts of :censored:ty jobs part time while I was at college and then full time after that. I learned a lot about life & the world from adults other than family members for the first time. Kids nowadays don't experience this.

Take Oldham town centre aswell - when I was 17/18 loads of us would be out every night of every weekend. Most of us worked, all the pubs were really busy. They were great days.

Again, we were kids rubbing shoulders with adults for the first time and learning how to behave, gaining social skills etc...

Oldham town centre is a ghost town now. So many pubs have gone. How much of that is as a result of young adults having no money to go out because they no longer do the low level jobs we had?

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It's abit naive to suggest we can just quickly negotiate trade deals on our terms if we were to opt out. The EU won't be that keen to play ball with us for wanting a divorce.

 

Are the EU & German government really going to suddenly stop BMW selling us hundreds of millions of pounds worth of cars every year?

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Oldham town centre is a ghost town now. So many pubs have gone. How much of that is as a result of young adults having no money to go out because they no longer do the low level jobs we had?

 

Spot on this sadly. Had a Friday night out in Oldham last month every pub we went into had no more than half a dozen people in and that's including the Upsteps. Is tragic when I remember what it was like 20 years ago, every pub was bouncing.

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The second point was about the prestige of European achievement. People do care about the space program and it actually puts food on the table of tens of thousands of people. Ditto the particle collider and Higgs-Boson. Probably the 3rd most important breakthrough after Newtonian physics and relativity. Aren't you glad we're involved? Aren't you glad it was in Europe and not America? or China?

 

 

 

I honestly couldn't care less.

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A serious topic. I'm not saying relegation isn't BUT

 

I am one of the lucky ones that has had to make this decision twice. On the first occasion the question was "Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?" I voted YES.

 

I very much regret voting 'YES' and will now vote to LEAVE. Why is the important question.

 

  1. There is something which seems to make politicians and bureaucrats, I was a civil servant, favour larger and larger institutions. Is it the power, future employment or the herd instinct I just don’t know but I do know that the EU is one of the most wasteful and unwieldy institutions in our world. If you favour decisions made in the interests of the 28 rather than in our best interest then vote to remain. If you favour the majority of our laws and regulations made by an undemocratic elite then vote to remain. If you favour staying in an institution dominated by German interests then vote to remain. Vote to leave if you want our laws and regulations to be made by United Kingdom democratically elected fellow citizens.
  2. Not surprisingly the EU wants us to stay because the UK is seen as a counterbalance to German domination and because we are a net contributor - yes folks they want our money and our influence.
  3. The EU is the ONLY failing economic block in the world and they tell you are future success is based on staying with this failure.
  4. They tell you 3 million jobs depend on our trade with the EU. They don’t tell you that we import more from the EU than we export to the EU. On their basis more jobs in the EU depend upon our imports. So what would happen if we leave - very little a free trade accommodation would be negotiated well within the two years allowed as EU business, remember it is a failing economic block, will need the certainty of keeping the UK markets more than we need the certainty of free trade with them.
  5. We will be able to take back our territorial waters and once again for an Island Nation have a thriving fishery industry - we import fish caught in our own former waters.
  6. We will be able to take control of our borders and reduce the flow of EU citizens into the UK. Our schools, Our NHS, Our Social Housing are all creaking at the seams because of the pressure of population growth. More money has to be spent on schools, housing and health just to stand still.
  7. I believe that immigration was/is silently welcomed by Labour, Conservative/Liberals and now the Conservatives because it has contributed to many years of low pressure on wages and has kept the Unions under control and Big Business very happy. We, i.e. not the rich who get richer, are all poorer because of the downward pressure on wages due to recorded net immigration in excess of 250,000 per year.
  8. Everything said by the remain campaign including the distortions in the leaflet from our government is underpinned by fear. The fear of what might be. I see it another way - as a golden opportunity to release our country from the shackles of a failing institution, to take responsibility for ourselves and to be able to take advantage of all the opportunities in this shrinking world.
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Are the EU & German government really going to suddenly stop BMW selling us hundreds of millions of pounds worth of cars every year?

Are they really going to let British firms compete with EU firms in the EU market on an even keel if we leave? The EU market has 500 million the UK has 64 million. Everyone in the out campaign knows and wants good trade agreements with the EU if we are in it we are in a far stronger position to negotiate than if we are out of it.

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What the "In" campaigners need to understand is that Yorkshire Street offering a good night on the piss again is far more important to me and many other Oldhamer's than a thousand Hadron :censored:ing Colliders....

 

Yorkshire Street went downhill when the Old Mess House closed...

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What the "In" campaigners need to understand is that Yorkshire Street offering a good night on the piss again is far more important to me and many other Oldhamer's than a thousand Hadron :censored:ing Colliders....

I'm pretty sure Yorkshire st isn't going to turn into the strip in Las Vegas if we leave the EU :)

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I get sick of hearing that we get grants for this, that and the other from the EU. We get nothing!!! We pay in more than we get back. Stop paying into the EU and we can have twice as much money to spend!

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Regarding your dramatic last point - nothing you've said in your detailed post has led me to see why you'd think that....

I take great exception with your points about the Space Agency involvement. Not to say it's an In/Out point as such, I am sure we could remain involved as an Ex-EU member.

 

However, space agencies, exploration and scientific investment is fundamentally a profitable thing to do!

 

  • Political - it unites countries (see Russian involvement with Europe and America despite the numerous other tensions)
  • Economical - it provides jobs, including some here, not only in the "now" but also the technological and processes developed go on to provide support industries and whole new industries entirely - we're beholden to the American / Russian space race for so much of our industry (and thus economical stability)
  • Social - the above unification of communities and people, the breaking down of barriers, the ideology of learning, the inspiration of the young to look at STEM jobs as a career (without with we're :censored:ed, frankly) and more besides. It also grows our understanding of the universe from which only good can come, because if humanity's history has shown anything it's that we're not content in one place, we will continue to expand - it's in our nature.
  • Technological - A list so long it has multiple wikipedia pages and I couldn't even begin to list them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off_technologies(and these are just the primary ones for NASA, there's multiple other agencies and additional spin offs from the spin offs).

Sorry - you hit a nerve, the rant isn't specific to you! :)

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An unfortunate term - should have said "ruling party".

 

 

Ah the tories...do you seriously believe they would spend any extra money where it's most needed? They'll update Trident cos that's really really vital to the wellbeing of the British people, :censored: giving doctors a decent wage eh?

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I take great exception with your points about the Space Agency involvement. Not to say it's an In/Out point as such, I am sure we could remain involved as an Ex-EU member.

 

However, space agencies, exploration and scientific investment is fundamentally a profitable thing to do!

 

  • Political - it unites countries (see Russian involvement with Europe and America despite the numerous other tensions)
  • Economical - it provides jobs, including some here, not only in the "now" but also the technological and processes developed go on to provide support industries and whole new industries entirely - we're beholden to the American / Russian space race for so much of our industry (and thus economical stability)
  • Social - the above unification of communities and people, the breaking down of barriers, the ideology of learning, the inspiration of the young to look at Science as a career (without with we're :censored:ed, frankly) and more besides. It also grows our understanding of the universe from which only good can come, because if humanity's history has shown anything it's that we're not content in one place, we will continue to expand - it's in our nature.
  • Technological - A list so long it has multiple wikipedia pages and I couldn't even begin to list them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off_technologies(and these are just the primary ones for NASA, there's multiple other agencies and additional spin offs from the spin offs).

Sorry - you hit a nerve, the rant isn't specific to you! :)

 

While it doesn't greatly interest me like it clearly does you I get all that but we've always been world leaders in Science, long before the EU - yet again, why would that change if we weren't in the EU?

Why would a Swiss/French/German scientist not want to collaborate with one of our great minds? (As per your first point about Russia)

Why could we not just have a "European Space Agency" with or without a EU?

 

Is this not yet another example (like trade) of something that is far bigger and far more important than the EU itself and would, therefore, continue unabated if we were out? (EDIT Which you actually did say in the first line of the post :lol:)

Edited by HarryBosch
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I take great exception with your points about the Space Agency involvement. Not to say it's an In/Out point as such, I am sure we could remain involved as an Ex-EU member.

 

However, space agencies, exploration and scientific investment is fundamentally a profitable thing to do!

 

  • Political - it unites countries (see Russian involvement with Europe and America despite the numerous other tensions)
  • Economical - it provides jobs, including some here, not only in the "now" but also the technological and processes developed go on to provide support industries and whole new industries entirely - we're beholden to the American / Russian space race for so much of our industry (and thus economical stability)
  • Social - the above unification of communities and people, the breaking down of barriers, the ideology of learning, the inspiration of the young to look at STEM jobs as a career (without with we're :censored:ed, frankly) and more besides. It also grows our understanding of the universe from which only good can come, because if humanity's history has shown anything it's that we're not content in one place, we will continue to expand - it's in our nature.
  • Technological - A list so long it has multiple wikipedia pages and I couldn't even begin to list them here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off_technologies(and these are just the primary ones for NASA, there's multiple other agencies and additional spin offs from the spin offs).

Sorry - you hit a nerve, the rant isn't specific to you! :)

 

I could tell by the bullet points :grin:

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Ah the tories...do you seriously believe they would spend any extra money where it's most needed? They'll update Trident cos that's really really vital to the wellbeing of the British people, :censored: giving doctors a decent wage eh?

:censored: the junior doctors.

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I must admit I'm very surprised that this poll seems to be leading significantly to an out vote. I've so far spoken to very few people who are contemplating anything other than staying in. Admittedly all within my circle of friends and colleagues, so I suppose they're likely to have similar opinions anyway.

I'm the opposite, don't know anybody personally that's voting IN.

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The fear of losing trade is massively overstated. Even in the implausible outcome of no trade arrangement being made we'd face average tariffs of 3%. I'd swap that for being able to trade openly with growing economies rather than locking ourselves further into the basket cases over the water.

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