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The EU referendum - 23rd June


Matt

The EU referendum  

216 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want the UK to leave or remain in the EU?

    • Leave the EU
      93
    • Remain in the EU
      102
    • Currently undecided
      21

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I don't disagree with your points but to whose advantage would the fall of the EU be? Surely the more predatory, peripheral nations?

 

How do you imagine the geo-political stability of Europe (and with regard to Britain) should the EU dissolve?

It's not a case of looking for an advantageous position, it's more of a situation of extricating one's self before being sucked further into this failed, ill thought out social experiment. If the EU had stuck to it's tenet of free trade and no more then we wouldn't have the majority of problems we have now.

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Mr Juncker is getting ahead of himself appointing a negotiating chief, Article 50 negotiations are in the remit of heads of government, not the Commission. Sort of underlines the sort of organisation it is.

 

How do you know they haven't agreed to it (the other 27 anyway)?

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Mr Juncker is getting ahead of himself appointing a negotiating chief, Article 50 negotiations are in the remit of heads of government, not the Commission. Sort of underlines the sort of organisation it is.

We've got a Secretary of State for Exiting the EU prior to article 50. Questions would be asked by the heads of government if the commission didn't start gearing up (for the thing that will never happen).

 

If anything, it shows the state of play after the referendum. They've got absolutely no reason to make leaving nice for us and plenty of reasons to make it hurt. We're outnumbered and outmuscled in every possible way. That's what happens when you let knuckle-dragging halfwits decide the nation's foreign policy, based on something they can't articulate...partly because they're so thick and partly because - thankfully - it is impolite and even disgraceful to do so.

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Very bold, Mr. Tulsehill but in my opinion, quite wrong. You forget that the non-elected in Europe are self-serving up against the British elected and both will drive a hard bargain. And if the broadsheet press are to be believed, there have already been pronouncements by captains of industry within Germany and France and the financial market in Luxembourg to press the politicians to get an acceptable trade agreement in place. Merkel has been told by the German multi-nationals to work with us, Manuel Valls has stated he wants to work /deal with us and the Luxembourg financial market wants to partner with us. It's important for Europe to freely trade with a strong Britain because when, not if, our world market strengthens then with that so does our market with Europe because Europe on it's own is a declining force. Those negotiating on behalf of Europe still go glassy-eyed over the EU dream......it's falling apart and big business knows that.

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Very bold, Mr. Tulsehill but in my opinion, quite wrong. You forget that the non-elected in Europe are self-serving up against the British elected and both will drive a hard bargain. And if the broadsheet press are to be believed, there have already been pronouncements by captains of industry within Germany and France and the financial market in Luxembourg to press the politicians to get an acceptable trade agreement in place. Merkel has been told by the German multi-nationals to work with us, Manuel Valls has stated he wants to work /deal with us and the Luxembourg financial market wants to partner with us. It's important for Europe to freely trade with a strong Britain because when, not if, our world market strengthens then with that so does our market with Europe because Europe on it's own is a declining force. Those negotiating on behalf of Europe still go glassy-eyed over the EU dream......it's falling apart and big business knows that.

That's all fine and I'm sure those German and French captains of industry want to do the right thing by the UK, as they always have throughout history. I'm sure they mean what they say and Merkel and Hollande or whoever comes in next year will have to think of a good reason not approach the negotiations aggressively.

 

What's the German for realpolitik?

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I think it's "realpolitik".

 

The bit that concerns me is the rise of the far right and our Brexit has not affected it within Germany and France because, I think, Hollande and Merkel have done a grand of stoking the fire in the bellies of the extremists with their insane policies. Fortunately in Britain, I don't think we have active far right extremists in large numbers except for maybe the Womens Institute.

Edited by mikejh45
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Michel Barnier has been named by Jean-Claude Juncker as the EU's Brexit negotiator (according to 'Liberation').

 

'The Frenchman, ex- European commissioner for the interior market and financial services (2009 - 2014), bête-noir of the city of London and the English press, is hardly an Anglophile and barely speaks a word of English.'

 

'...an appointment to counter May's 'trio de choc' - Johnson, Davis and Fox - this 64 year old Savoyard is very under-estimated in French politics due to his distaste for small talk and his limited sense of humour. A staunch and tenacious supporter of Europe, his unprecedented shake-up of the financial institutions during his role as regulator required multiple approval from the British government - and he likes to tell that of 42 texts proposed, only 2 were rejected by the British.'

 

'For Barnier, there is no question of selling out the interests of the E.U.to please a country which has shot itself in the foot. From what we can gather, he believes there will be two successive negotiations - the first, within two years, the rupture between London and the EU and only then, Britain's new stature... Because she was so ill-prepared for Brexit, her gracious majesty's government is totally ill-equipped for and without clear ideas as to the handling of this retreat - notably concerning her own legislation and her international commerce'.

“this 64 year old Savoyard is very under-estimated in French politics due to his distaste for small talk and his limited sense of humour.”

 

‘Under-estimated’ sounds as though you think more of him than they do. If, true it doesn’t say much for the credibility of French politics. You also make him sound a little like Teresa May, who was recently appointed Prime Minister. May, and her team though have a few weeks jump on him to be less ill prepared than he is.

 

Further, why on earth would ‘either’ side have been preparing for Brexit. Neither of them saw it coming. The usual b******t before a poll has now been ignored twice by the electorate within two years. The only real negative to the first surprise last year is the wipeout of the Liberals and the implosion of Labour. Not an ideal scenario for the future.

 

You appear to put a doomsday scenario on most things but not an unelected Federal inclined Commission gaining more and more power on an annual basis, unemployment at unparalleled levels in some Eurozone countries, and high in most Some Eurozone banks still in trouble (terrible second quarter results from Deutsche Bank today). Columns of unorganized refugees, many of them (and it could be most) economic, marching through Europe to a point of their choice.

Safety, jobs, financial stability and democracy of the EU within the Eurozone are being challenged daily. And you put forward a view that EU are putting up the big guns to sort out the United Kingdom. May god give me strength.

 

In my view Michel Barnier is there simply to negotiate the EU’s position. It would be quite naturally to choose someone competent. It may turn out ‘they’ get shot in the foot, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge before getting too pedantic. Bullying and intransigence will have no place in the meetings over Brexit and I’m puzzled why you seem to be countenancing it. Are you on the EU over generous payroll and pension scheme by any chance? Germany may well be happy with a free trade agreement but maybe not many others unless Germany is persuasive.

 

At the end of the day we are on course to trade with who we like. Judge people how we like, while making our own rulings and attempt to control immigration more efficiently. For which the latter two the UK electorate have never been consulted on. And it will take civility, respect and negotiation to conclude.

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According to a Lord Ashcroft poll, 34% of leave voters think feminism is a BAD THING.

 

Not all leave voters are mysoginists, but all mysoginists voted leave.

 

The same poll shows a massive 57% of leave voters think social liberalism is also BAD - under which umbrella you can put LGBT rights (including decriminalisation), abortion and the pill and so on. 81% thought multiculturalism was BAD THING.

 

Not all leave voters are heinous 1950s throwbacks yearning for an imagined past where gay people either didn't exist or got put away; where women stayed in loveless or abusive marriages because of unwanted pregnancy; and where people with brown skin just stayed out of one's eyeline, but everyone yearning for that voted leave. That's somewhere north of 13 million people right?

 

Can we just send them back somewhere? Can we have a referendum on whether they should leave?

Edited by 24hoursfromtulsehill
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Every day a fresh reveal of the attitudes behind the vote. Sure there's no necessary relationship between someone's values and their decisions, but a picture is emerging isn't it?

Not every Internet remainist troll has a mansion in a gated community, but...
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“this 64 year old Savoyard is very under-estimated in French politics due to his distaste for small talk and his limited sense of humour.”

 

‘Under-estimated’ sounds as though you think more of him than they do. If, true it doesn’t say much for the credibility of French politics. You also make him sound a little like Teresa May, who was recently appointed Prime Minister. May, and her team though have a few weeks jump on him to be less ill prepared than he is.

 

Further, why on earth would ‘either’ side have been preparing for Brexit. Neither of them saw it coming. The usual b******t before a poll has now been ignored twice by the electorate within two years. The only real negative to the first surprise last year is the wipeout of the Liberals and the implosion of Labour. Not an ideal scenario for the future.

 

You appear to put a doomsday scenario on most things but not an unelected Federal inclined Commission gaining more and more power on an annual basis, unemployment at unparalleled levels in some Eurozone countries, and high in most Some Eurozone banks still in trouble (terrible second quarter results from Deutsche Bank today). Columns of unorganized refugees, many of them (and it could be most) economic, marching through Europe to a point of their choice.

Safety, jobs, financial stability and democracy of the EU within the Eurozone are being challenged daily. And you put forward a view that EU are putting up the big guns to sort out the United Kingdom. May god give me strength.

 

In my view Michel Barnier is there simply to negotiate the EU’s position. It would be quite naturally to choose someone competent. It may turn out ‘they’ get shot in the foot, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge before getting too pedantic. Bullying and intransigence will have no place in the meetings over Brexit and I’m puzzled why you seem to be countenancing it. Are you on the EU over generous payroll and pension scheme by any chance? Germany may well be happy with a free trade agreement but maybe not many others unless Germany is persuasive.

 

At the end of the day we are on course to trade with who we like. Judge people how we like, while making our own rulings and attempt to control immigration more efficiently. For which the latter two the UK electorate have never been consulted on. And it will take civility, respect and negotiation to conclude.

 

With due respect, notice that I'm quoting from a European newspaper, hence the speech marks (and the acknowledgement to 'Liberation'). So it is pointless to address these quotes as if they came from me. I was merely posting from a publication that is probably fairly obscure in the UK and therefore, I thought, interesting to our board members.

 

My own view is, that while Brexit was a total sham bordering on the criminally insane, it's time to move on and leave Europe - as is the wish of the people.

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I think it's "realpolitik".

 

The bit that concerns me is the rise of the far right and our Brexit has not affected it within Germany and France because, I think, Hollande and Merkel have done a grand of stoking the fire in the bellies of the extremists with their insane policies. Fortunately in Britain, I don't think we have active far right extremists in large numbers except for maybe the Womens Institute.

 

Agreed, the extreme-right in Germany and France are absolutely toxic. But only in Britain are we casually and flippantly racist, anti-European, anti-diversity, anti-politically correct, anti-health and safety, anti-multicultural etc. etc.

We seem to have embraced a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon culture whereby the cult of personality takes precedence over substance. When the 'Daily Mail' reviewed the 2003 British film of sylvia Plath's life 'Sylvia', with the following words - ' who wants to watch a film about a depressive poet who commits suicide', I knew I was living within a society on the cusp of decadence. How right I was.

 

From my visits to France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc, amidst all the angst there is at least an understanding of the virtues of communitarianism - as there is in most of Central Europe (Russia excluded).

 

In other words, in the interests of peace and stability, the referendum should never have happened. It did - and without the slightest shred of evidence that it was in our interests to do so, we voted out. Leaving the EU was the singularly most destructive and mind-bogglingly :censored:ed up thing we could ever, ever have done. But we did it. That Nigel Farage could just walk away from this, the toffee-nosed :censored:, beggars belief.

 

Anyway, :censored: Europe, :censored: their Fords, :censored: their Hadron collider. :censored: Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, MAN, Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Lancia and Alfa-Romeo. :censored: Opel, Airbus, Allianz, Axa, Volkswagen, Total, Thompson, Veolia, Siemens etc, etc.

 

Britain's small but very game firm (ie. Boris Johnson and 3 fitters from Aston Martin aided by a small but tidy mob from Thornton's chocolates ) will go toe to toe with you lot any day. But not straight away because Hayleys having her hair straightened on Thursday.

Edited by piglinbland
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Every remainist troll drinks craft beers in the arch beneath their bridge.

I wouldn't even take a sip of under-the-arches, trust fund middle class moonshine. Give me a good working class Guinness at £5 a pint any day of the week.

 

Has article 50 been invoked yet? Well, when it is, there's two years to wait, assuming we don't subsequently stop that clock by suspending it, which is also possible. You know I don't feel strongly either way. It just strikes me that leavers are getting their hopes up rather a long time before the event. And I don't mind at all if that subset of voters gets royally shat on.

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Agreed, the extreme-right in Germany and France are absolutely toxic. But only in Britain are we casually and flippantly racist, anti-European, anti-diversity, anti-politically correct, anti-health and safety, anti-multicultural etc. etc. No different to most of Europe then.

We seem to have embraced a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon culture whereby the cult of personality takes precedence over substance. When the 'Daily Mail' reviewed the 2003 British film of sylvia Plath's life 'Sylvia', with the following words - ' who wants to watch a film about a depressive poet who commits suicide', I knew I was living within a society on the cusp of decadence. How right I was. One review in one newspaper does not make a cogent argument. Most countries in Europe have the equivalent of our ignorant red tops.

 

From my visits to France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc, amidst all the angst there is at least an understanding of the virtues of communitarianism - as there is in most of Central Europe (Russia excluded). Go to any major city in Europe that has a large percentage of immigrants and you will see a level of multi-culturalism no better than the worst of Britain.

 

In other words, in the interests of peace and stability, the referendum should never have happened. It did - and without the slightest shred of evidence that it was in our interests to do so, we voted out. Leaving the EU was the singularly most destructive and mind-bogglingly :censored:ed up thing we could ever, ever have done. But we did it. That Nigel Farage could just walk away from this, the toffee-nosed :censored:, beggars belief. You are still peddling the same crap you put forward for a couple of months before the referendum. As for Farage, what else is there for him to do, he was always a one trick pony and not a sitting MP and therefore was never going to be invited to the negotiations and he's hardly running away because he is still an MEP

 

Anyway, :censored: Europe, :censored: their Fords, :censored: their Hadron collider. :censored: Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, MAN, Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Lancia and Alfa-Romeo. :censored: Opel, Airbus, Allianz, Axa, Volkswagen, Total, Thompson, Veolia, Siemens etc, etc. Now are you are sounding bitter. As for Hadron, that has not and never has been anything to do with the EU.

 

Britain's small but very game firm (ie. Boris Johnson and 3 fitters from Aston Martin aided by a small but tidy mob from Thornton's chocolates ) will go toe to toe with you lot any day. But not straight away because Hayleys having her hair straightened on Thursday. I'll put this bit down as tongue in cheek.

 

You need to get over the vote going against your wishes as your bitterness is becoming somewhat embarrassing, akin to toys being thrown out of pram.

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According to a Lord Ashcroft poll, 34% of leave voters think feminism is a BAD THING.

 

Not all leave voters are mysoginists, but all mysoginists voted leave.

 

The same poll shows a massive 57% of leave voters think social liberalism is also BAD - under which umbrella you can put LGBT rights (including decriminalisation), abortion and the pill and so on. 81% thought multiculturalism was BAD THING.

 

Not all leave voters are heinous 1950s throwbacks yearning for an imagined past where gay people either didn't exist or got put away; where women stayed in loveless or abusive marriages because of unwanted pregnancy; and where people with brown skin just stayed out of one's eyeline, but everyone yearning for that voted leave. That's somewhere north of 13 million people right?

 

 

 

Can we just send them back somewhere? Can we have a referendum on whether they should leave?

Would this be the same Lord Ashcroft who's poll on May 26th 2016 boasted "nearly two-thirds of voters think UK will remain in E.U.

 

A decent enough sample of 5,000 took part. Off course this was somewhat shy of the c37,000,000 who took advantage of the privacy of a polling booth to answer the pertinent question.

 

On immigration the referendum that I was closely following was never about sending anyone back, more to stem the flow from faster than we can build houses, hospitals, schools and other infrastructure.

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With due respect, notice that I'm quoting from a European newspaper, hence the speech marks (and the acknowledgement to 'Liberation'). So it is pointless to address these quotes as if they came from me. I was merely posting from a publication that is probably fairly obscure in the UK and therefore, I thought, interesting to our board members.

 

My own view is, that while Brexit was a total sham bordering on the criminally insane, it's time to move on and leave Europe - as is the wish of the people.

I feel reasonably sure you only thought it would be of interest to 'some' board members. It would also have needed to fit your viewpoint. Like the politicians you harp on about imminent hardship if we don't vote this way or that way. Unfortunately we have already voted.

 

History tells us every election is based on doom and zoom according to each party. If the party in power don't deliver the can be removed by the electorate. This as been the case since women got the vote in 1918{I think). The referendum is a major deviation from the norm. In effect it was between our Sovereignty and the unelected EU. We choose Sovereignty. I agree that there wasn't much zoom being rolled out but plenty of unknowable/exaggerated doom.

 

It is almost certain the EU will now look to reform a little, now the first horse has bolted there may be more. There is no sign of its economy improving and Brexit won't help nor will economic migration.

 

The EU has had its head in the sand for too long I hope to heaven they don't stick it down a mine shaft during negotiations. It could be up to 3yrs before it's sorted.

 

Meanwhile there are far more dangerous goings on around the globe that could be visiting an economy near you sooner than you think. Nothing is EVER straight forward in world affairs. No history of it whatsoever.

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Agreed, the extreme-right in Germany and France are absolutely toxic. But only in Britain are we casually and flippantly racist, anti-European, anti-diversity, anti-politically correct, anti-health and safety, anti-multicultural etc. etc. No different to most of Europe then.

We seem to have embraced a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon culture whereby the cult of personality takes precedence over substance. When the 'Daily Mail' reviewed the 2003 British film of sylvia Plath's life 'Sylvia', with the following words - ' who wants to watch a film about a depressive poet who commits suicide', I knew I was living within a society on the cusp of decadence. How right I was. One review in one newspaper does not make a cogent argument. Most countries in Europe have the equivalent of our ignorant red tops.

 

From my visits to France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc, amidst all the angst there is at least an understanding of the virtues of communitarianism - as there is in most of Central Europe (Russia excluded). Go to any major city in Europe that has a large percentage of immigrants and you will see a level of multi-culturalism no better than the worst of Britain.

 

In other words, in the interests of peace and stability, the referendum should never have happened. It did - and without the slightest shred of evidence that it was in our interests to do so, we voted out. Leaving the EU was the singularly most destructive and mind-bogglingly :censored:ed up thing we could ever, ever have done. But we did it. That Nigel Farage could just walk away from this, the toffee-nosed :censored:, beggars belief. You are still peddling the same crap you put forward for a couple of months before the referendum. As for Farage, what else is there for him to do, he was always a one trick pony and not a sitting MP and therefore was never going to be invited to the negotiations and he's hardly running away because he is still an MEP

 

Anyway, :censored: Europe, :censored: their Fords, :censored: their Hadron collider. :censored: Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, MAN, Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Lancia and Alfa-Romeo. :censored: Opel, Airbus, Allianz, Axa, Volkswagen, Total, Thompson, Veolia, Siemens etc, etc. Now are you are sounding bitter. As for Hadron, that has not and never has been anything to do with the EU.

 

Britain's small but very game firm (ie. Boris Johnson and 3 fitters from Aston Martin aided by a small but tidy mob from Thornton's chocolates ) will go toe to toe with you lot any day. But not straight away because Hayleys having her hair straightened on Thursday. I'll put this bit down as tongue in cheek.

 

You need to get over the vote going against your wishes as your bitterness is becoming somewhat embarrassing, akin to toys being thrown out of pram.

 

 

Nonsense.

 

"You are still peddling the same crap you put forward for a couple of months before the referendum" - Thanks for backhandedly crediting my consistency. If you look through my 'crap' you'll see that I forewarned about the legal and administrative difficulties of leaving, of EU intransigence and of this governments lack of foresight.

 

Now that Napoleon and Squealer's utopian vision of 'being in the driving seat' has disappeared in a puff of smoke, we're going to topple Europe instead. Amazing!

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I feel reasonably sure you only thought it would be of interest to 'some' board members. It would also have needed to fit your viewpoint. Like the politicians you harp on about imminent hardship if we don't vote this way or that way. Unfortunately we have already voted.

 

History tells us every election is based on doom and zoom according to each party. If the party in power don't deliver the can be removed by the electorate. This as been the case since women got the vote in 1918{I think). The referendum is a major deviation from the norm. In effect it was between our Sovereignty and the unelected EU. We choose Sovereignty. I agree that there wasn't much zoom being rolled out but plenty of unknowable/exaggerated doom.

 

It is almost certain the EU will now look to reform a little, now the first horse has bolted there may be more. There is no sign of its economy improving and Brexit won't help nor will economic migration.

 

The EU has had its head in the sand for too long I hope to heaven they don't stick it down a mine shaft during negotiations. It could be up to 3yrs before it's sorted.

 

Meanwhile there are far more dangerous goings on around the globe that could be visiting an economy near you sooner than you think. Nothing is EVER straight forward in world affairs. No history of it whatsoever.

 

 

Only 3 years? It's generally accepted that fully extracting ourselves from the EU will take about 8 years.

Edited by piglinbland
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Piginbland

 

I will concede on your consistency but argue that it is not in the best interests of either side to drag out the terms of the divorce. From reading your posts, you appear to take the view that the EU holds the better cards in the negotiation game and will punish the UK for being a nuisance partner for several years and having the temerity to want out.

According to the Telegraph yesterday, our economic future is showing signs of growth outside of the EU. The longer these talks take, the less important the EU market is to the UK and as such the captains of EU industry and finance will put downward pressure on the politicians to resolve the situation and retain their market share. The EU as a market is in a :censored: state and shows no sign of reversing the trend of negative growth but the EU itself is still outspending its income and at some point in the near future, Germany will get fed up with financially supporting this failed social experiment.

As for the 3 years or 8 years.......who would really know.......this is virgin territory. I have more confidence in our position once we get these experienced negotiators in from Canada, Australia and New Zealand to fight our corner.

 

Which ever way you look at it, the EU in its current form is crumbling away.

Edited by mikejh45
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