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The EU referendum - 23rd June


Matt

The EU referendum  

216 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want the UK to leave or remain in the EU?

    • Leave the EU
      93
    • Remain in the EU
      102
    • Currently undecided
      21

This poll is closed to new votes


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I can appreciate the argument that the EU is financially broke as one for leaving but not sure it's the reason this Referendum is happening - I think it's brought about more by our xenophobic media.

The referendum is happening because Cameron promised it.

 

He didn't actually expect to win the election and have to deliver on that promise.

 

His subsequent negotiations for change within the eu delivered Jack :censored:.

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The referendum is happening because Cameron promised it.

 

He didn't actually expect to win the election and have to deliver on that promise.

 

His subsequent negotiations for change within the eu delivered Jack :censored:.

 

One of the strange things about the election is that, when the result is fairly close, your PM is meant to make noises such as "We'll govern for the whole country, even people who didn't vote for us." Instead, Cameron went straight for "We won the election and that means every single item in our manifesto has the consent of the whole British public." (Nick Clegg started that nonsense with, "The country has decided it wants a coalition Government, and therefore every single item in the coalition agreement.")

 

Cameron's low ambition in the "renegotiation" was a PR victory and he didn't even get that. It doesn't mean we should vote out as a result.

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Do you live in Oldham? The immigration many are concerned about is the noticeable influx of west african, Romanian, and East Europeans in general that dont appear to have the work pattern we recognise putting it politely and changing face of well know areas even more. Our kids that choose to stay local should have some degree of protection on availability of housing etc not be down the lists on social housing and forced to live with parents unless they want to.

 

As for us ALL staying in EU so a few can move easily to work abroad doesn't really add up as a deal breaker. If you have skills that transfer you will be welcome anywhere just like in Aus, Canada, US... SKILLS the key to that.

 

All the Filipino nurses working here being a prime example.....

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It tells me the eu isn't for changing.

 

I'm not sure about that. Depends what you ask for. As Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and now Cameron have discovered, you get kicked in the face if you ask for a PR coup and no real change. We don't know what happens when someone really asks for something because they never really have asked.

 

To be fair, all of the above have at one time or another and to varying degrees blamed their own policy failures on Europe. For instance, governments tend to slag off the CAP while less loudly recognising that it keeps a great many of our guardians of the countryside in business. They slag off the European Court of Human Rights. It isn't anything to do with the European Union but there's no harm in people thinking it's a central pillar of the project if it deflects from an unpopular legal decision on transgender surgery or some such.

 

Tampon tax? Blame it on the EU. Fishermen struggling? It's the EU, especially the Spaniards, who insist on fishing from big boats that don't cost the earth to run and that can go long distances. Absolutely do not mention the alternative commercial opportunities available to our fleet of rubber dinghy merchants who insist they'd be viable if only the Spaniards didn't cheat by being better at fishing.

 

Want to deflect attention from cuts to policing? Why not start a national conversation about the iniquities and unfairness of the justice and home affairs pillar?

 

Barely functioning democracy? Deflect attention from your lack of mandate for your evil policies by pointing out that no one voted for the EU commission.

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A lot of talk along the lines of "we don't know what will happen next if we come out", "there's no plan" etc...

 

Will it not be the case that we'll wake up the next morning and nothing will have changed but then the next general election will see Party Manifesto's detailing what they want to do given the new "freedoms" we'll have as a country?

 

That could be interesting and we might see some real differences in policies rather than the centre left/centre right snoozefest UK politics has become...

 

 

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A lot of talk along the lines of "we don't know what will happen next if we come out", "there's no plan" etc...

 

Will it not be the case that we'll wake up the next morning and nothing will have changed but then the next general election will see Party Manifesto's detailing what they want to do given the new "freedoms" we'll have as a country?

 

That could be interesting and we might see some real differences in policies rather than the centre left/centre right snoozefest UK politics has become...

 

 

 

If the EU is as pernicious and prolific in law making as Farage would have us believe, what does he want to do to replace it? I'd like him to say what his vision of an independent United Kingdom is. If he can't say, I'm not voting for it.

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This.

 

From the article, "They are also worried about the avalanche of regulation that could follow a vote to stay."

 

As I have stated before a vote to Remain is not a vote for the status quo.

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If the EU is as pernicious and prolific in law making as Farage would have us believe, what does he want to do to replace it? I'd like him to say what his vision of an independent United Kingdom is. If he can't say, I'm not voting for it.

 

Why are you bothered what he thinks? It'll be your lot (in 2025 maybe :lol:) or the Tories who will have to run an "Independent UK"...

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Every argument is based on meek acceptance of the status quo. It's all about different shades of political economy, about what is right under capitalism. In that sense, nothing really changes. All decision-making is framed around the demands of capital. Some, especially the 'leavers', are utterly obsessed with running Britain as a plc entirely for the benefit of business people. They give the impression of returning power. Bollocks. What we need is a challenge that actually puts people first. Capitalism runs this country. You're all deluded if you think any vote for change means giving you power. You haven't got any meaningful power. Powerful interest groups dominate the agenda, either directly or indirectly. If i was a multi millionaire or member of some weirdly protected privileged group like royalty (seriously - wtf is that all about in a modern 'democracy') i'd piss my pants at the number of people who support a system that gives me everything and gives you a few scraps and the illusion of power. At least under the EU there has been a bit of protection for working people. Leave and even that will disappear.

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I'm of the left and as such should be a definite Remain voter but I'm not so sure now. I've got a degree in History and Politics, am active in local politics, spend more time than is healthy reading about news, politics, current affairs.. and am fairly well informed on most things but I have no idea what this referendum is actually about, what are we voting for/against? Without blowing my own trumpet, if I don't really know what the hell this is about then I am really concerned that such an important decision is going to be made by far less informed people.

 

I have several concerns with many of the instruments that make up the EU, I also have several concerns with what is generally perceived to be 'Europe' and Brussels... all the stuff Farage and his ilk moan about. The way that nations such as Greece have been cut adrift with nonsensical policies and unpayable loans/financial settlements makes me questions whether 'Europe' is just a rich boys club that has been infiltrated by the same vested interests that have infiltrated national governments and corporations.

 

I strongly believe in closer integration between the nations that exist on the continent known as Europe as we are all very similar. We're a social species that thrives when we work together and is weaker when working against each other, but the current vehicles for this integration are completely not fit for this purpose, they appear to exist for the benefit of the larger nations, France and Germany. If Britain had been more involved at the start/ DeGaulle hadn't been such a French prick then the whole shebang may have been much better run from the off.

 

We can debate the merits or not of the Euro and the fiscal crisis that beset the currency since the global economic slowdown of the latter 2000s till the cows come home. Our own currency is only being kept afloat with a ridiculous 0.5% interest rate and £billions of quantitative easing, the can is just being kicked further and further down the road but one day our structural economic weaknesses are going to have to be addressed. It is not going to be pretty, it already isn't! It is also too early to say whether the Euro experiment has been a success or a failure, however I can see it being successful over a 25, 50, 100 year period if the short term goggles are taken off and being outside of that currency may well prove to be a mistake? Only time will tell on this one.

 

I think the issue of Europe is simple too big, it touches on so many aspects of everything, there have been massive benefits to come out of Europe, standardised practices, health and safety legislation, human rights, peace, trade and it has provided a stable footing for the next stage or development. To throw it away now would be a mistake in my opinion, however, fundamental and structural reforms are desperately needed and I don't think Britain would have any input if we remain on the periphery as we currently are or outside completely.

 

I have grave concerns about the out campaigns, they all seem to have the misconception that 'Europe' is an entity that would be unaffected by our exit, the removal of a large contributor would have massive implications and could trigger its demise. This may be factored in to the Out campaigns however the consequences of the collapse would have reverberations that would negatively affect our economy and nation, when figures such as £Xmillions a day are bandied about it does sound like a lot of money but it isn't a 2+2=4 sum, there are many non-tangible benefits without £s on that Britain gets out of its membership of the EU and these are ignored by the Out. Nothing in this life is simple black and white.

 

I do come down closer to wanting to stay in but with massive reform however I am also tempted by an out vote simply for the chaos it would create. Its all a bit of a mess really, one thing these last 15 years (and more) have shown is that us humans aren't half capable of making a right cock up of most things.

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The difference of how Norway and the UK has managed their oil wealth revenues is quite shocking. To say we've wasted a lot of it away would be an understatement. We have not got a huge amount to sow for it.

 

You mean the tax cuts that were made in response to the North Sea Oil revenue didn't trickle down the rest of the economy??? Well I never.

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Every argument is based on meek acceptance of the status quo. It's all about different shades of political economy, about what is right under capitalism. In that sense, nothing really changes. All decision-making is framed around the demands of capital. Some, especially the 'leavers', are utterly obsessed with running Britain as a plc entirely for the benefit of business people. They give the impression of returning power. Bollocks. What we need is a challenge that actually puts people first. Capitalism runs this country. You're all deluded if you think any vote for change means giving you power. You haven't got any meaningful power. Powerful interest groups dominate the agenda, either directly or indirectly. If i was a multi millionaire or member of some weirdly protected privileged group like royalty (seriously - wtf is that all about in a modern 'democracy') i'd piss my pants at the number of people who support a system that gives me everything and gives you a few scraps and the illusion of power. At least under the EU there has been a bit of protection for working people. Leave and even that will disappear.

 

But the queens a lovely lady - she drove an ambulance in the war!

 

Next you'll be telling us that migrants into the UK in 2015 accounted for less than 0.5% of the population and that Britain's EU deficit is less than 0.5% of it's G.N.P. - and would be more than compensated for if the rich paid tax!

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Continuing membership of the EU does not represent a continuation of the status quo as many in the Remain camp would have us believe.

"If Britain votes to stay in then it is certain that this decision will herald a terrifying increase in Brussels’s interference in our lives, further attacks on our sovereignty and sense of nationhood and the remorseless progress towards an EU superstate. "


MEP David Campbell Bannerman


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It beggars belief that so many big words say little and if EU a pinnacle God help us. Should be a politician. Johnson is far from a lemon he does a good impression of dippy but is far from stupid if you listen to those who work with him daily might add of opposed political loyalty.

 

Straight bananas Grrrrr...metric pints, proper money with the queens head on, bloody Brussels gravy train...

Is this better?

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The EU is one of the pinnacles of human achievement?

 

That really is messing with my head.

 

Pinnacle is a bit strong, but the point is that after centuries of bitter wasteful war, the EU has secured an unprecedented period of peace and stability through economic integration rather than bitter competition, tension and nationalism. In relative terms, that is a big achievement. The context for all of the is is the war. The Coal and Steel Agreement followed by the Treaty of Rome were desperate attempts to put an end to it all. Again, it's worked and it is a big achievement.

 

It beggars belief that so many big words say little and if EU a pinnacle God help us. Should be a politician. Johnson is far from a lemon he does a good impression of dippy but is far from stupid if you listen to those who work with him daily might add of opposed political loyalty.

Johnson is no lemon. His persona is an attempt to show that he's actually not a nasty, calculating bastard who is only driven by the desire for power. He is not in the least bit dippy.

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