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I'm coming to think it would be better to turn these talks in and announce that we plan to leave with no deal. It will give exporting businesses time to make the same arrangements they do when they sell to the USA or India with their EU customers rather than having to second guess and adjust in a rush. Ports can prepare likewise.

 

Announce cuts in business tax to more than offset the potential tariffs from not paying a blackmail bill. Work on trade agreements hopefully ready to go from day one. Reciprocal rights should be piss easy to fix when they aren't being used as a sick bargaining to.

 

And Hammond is a cunt.

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In August 1998 I started work on the Royal Mail Y2K programme for the South East area, from north of London to Dover and about the same distance width wise, part of these 'preparations' as you put it.

I disagree that I'd rather see bad news. I wasn't a remainer, I spoiled my paper by drawing my own box, putting 'Fucked either way" and voting for that. It is far too early to tell what the effects of

The people's will was overwhelmingly in favour of apathy or at least the status quo. As it has been for some time.   During one of Tusk's outspoken tirades, somebody at work asked my who ele

Just read this headline in the Guardian....."EU business leaders tell PM: agree Brexit deal or face collapse in confidence".

 

Am I missing something here, how the f*ck can a group representing an organisation which has one country supporting the rest tell us they won't have any confidence in us??? What about Italy, France and Portugal (oh, and Greece)........all financially f*cked!!!

 

Time to get a group of pro-Brexit businessmen together to counter the self-serving crap coming from the CBI. 

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On 05/12/2017 at 7:02 AM, joe_lead said:

Rest of EU must be holding their sides at the incompetence of our negotiating team when the offer put on the table by the UK is seen completely inacceptable by ............ the U.K. 

 

Its going well isnt it? but then again it was never going to go well. We could ofcourse just call the whole thing off? People who have voted for this have clearly been lied too. 

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4 minutes ago, GlossopLatic said:

 

Its going well isnt it? but then again it was never going to go well. We could ofcourse just call the whole thing off? People who have voted for this have clearly been lied too. 

TBF the majority who voted for it actually don't give a shit about the financial implications or the Irish border, to them this was all about immigration.

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4 hours ago, disjointed said:

TBF the majority who voted for it actually don't give a shit about the financial implications or the Irish border, to them this was all about immigration.

 

True it was that plus a few other factors such as a distrust of politicians and elites and people saw it as a chance for a change. This change isnt benefitting them. If Brexit gets cancelled Id like to think that some of these peoples concerns would be listened too.

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6 hours ago, disjointed said:

TBF the majority who voted for it actually don't give a shit about the financial implications or the Irish border, to them this was all about immigration.

£10 to Playershare if you tell my missus that after she's had half a bottle of gin.

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On ‎06‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:50 PM, GlossopLatic said:

People who have voted for this have clearly been lied too. 

 

Lies, shite & bollocks were spouted by both sides................just the remain side had government money to help them.

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11 hours ago, mikejh45 said:

 

Lies, shite & bollocks were spouted by both sides................just the remain side had government money to help them.

 

Lies shite and bollocks as you put were not just on the leave side you are right but its difficult now to see who has actually won. It appears if anything that after round 1 we have all lost.

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Can we all agree yet that the government are making a right dog's breakfast of it?

 

Regardless of in or out I want good negotiations to be held but this is far from happening. Despite this being pretty much the full time pre-occupation for some for over 30 years there is no credible plan for an outline of what Brexit would look like in actuality. We haven't even got a starting point for a Britain-centric Brexit desired state to work back from to devise a negotiating position. Europe will kick us out before we settle on what we want, it must be like arguing with a toddler for Europe. We're a laughing stock.

 

If we can't even get this right it doesn't fill me with hope that there is the capability to make the deals with new partner nations. We shouldn't have had the referendum without the education, we did it and triggered Article 50 too early due to misplaced political expediency and we're being lacklustre in the negotiations. All in all, we're fucked if we think we're going to come out of this with anything better than a bad deal.

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Transition agreed. Looks to me like the Irish question can still break the whole thing apart, France and Germany will have to be happy enough with the final outcome to bully Ireland (and Spain) into accepting it.

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Is Paul the Octopus still alive? I'd like to see what he has to say whether we will get a good deal out of the negotiations or a bad deal. For info, I'm including 'no deal' in the bad deal column, a 'no deal' solution includes the mess it will cause in Ireland.

 

The longer this goes on, the closer we get to the deadline and the chance that we will even get to a negotiating position before 23:00 on the final day gets even slimmer. 

 

I can see it resulting in a 'no deal' as the two negotiating blocks are not even within the same book let alone on the same page! A 'no deal' result might not be the worst outcome as it forces the Irish issue to be resolved even though the A50 deadline will have passed. Until the Irish question is satisfactorily resolved all current EU laws and regulations will apply to all EU and Third Nations. It is monumental can kicking but until the British can articulate a semi-competent negotiating position there is little point in the EU seriously engaging with us.

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On 6/27/2017 at 1:30 PM, beag_teeets said:

Can we sends the DUPs to do the negotiations? They seem to be much better than the shambles we've sent.

 

On 3/19/2018 at 12:32 PM, leeslover said:

Transition agreed. Looks to me like the Irish question can still break the whole thing apart, France and Germany will have to be happy enough with the final outcome to bully Ireland (and Spain) into accepting it.

Could have saved millions of hours of commentary over the last year by reference to these two posts

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Leading Brexiters seem to be unhappy with the EU fiddling around with our sovereignty yet seem happy to embrace WTO trade rules after a no deal Brexit. I'd like to know how Brexiters feel about WTO sovereignty and the judicial system that underpins how the WTO governs world trade, if trade agreements do not comply with WTO regulations then we end up in a WTO court which has powers to drastically affect British trade. Not based in Brussels though so it is fine.

 

The vast majority of the benefits of either a good deal or no deal Brexit are based in fantasy, we are not going to shed the shackles of Brussels and find ourselves in the sunny uplands of free and unfettered trade. Trade is usually linked to investment, aid, commercial opportunities and other interesting things, it isn't just buying our lamb from New Zealand as they have lots of it, it's why we have trade agreements in the first place, to make trade easier than WTO rules and so both sides benefit. We are walking away from free trade with Europe but also all the trade agreements that we have benefitted from as members of the EU and the treaties they have negotiated. Exporting is going to be a nightmare! Our exports will have WTO schedules applied which will make them more expensive than products from Nations the buyer has trade agreements with, additionally, regulatory and safety standards we previously sailed through as we were part of the EU and produced to their standards are highly likely to result in delays at the importers end. We may well export goods and services (if the talks get round to services)  post Brexit but if each transaction results in delays due to taking longer to get customs clearance and the products are more expensive than those from alternative countries and require testing to ensure compliance with the importer's regulations then our order books are going to get slimmer and slimmer as barriers we've avoided by being part of the EU start to apply to us.

 

If we could go back to the days of sending some of Her Majesty's finest navy gun boats to drop anchor outside foreign ports, steal goods from nations around the global and then force them to buy our goods then I would feel very positive about Brexit but I am not sure that our current navy has this capability? Our main strike fighter, dubbed the Eurofighter may also present issues post Brexit and the possible replacement, the American F35 is not due to be fully deployed till around 2023 so like those aircraft carriers we've just built that don't have planes our entire strike fighter capability looks iffy.

 

We've boxed ourselves in by our own Governmental red lines, the EU have proposed various deals but we've been unable to accept due to our own red lines, this isn't the EU being difficult, they are just enforcing the rules and conditions of Article 50, which as we know was written by a Brit! if it was Portugal that had activated Article 50 and they'd spent the last few years flailing round like we have we would be laughing at them, little wonder Junker did his impression of May's dancing queen.

 

We've about 6 months to go, I don't think it matters which way you voted in the advisory referendum or whether you've changed your position since. Article 50 has been triggered and we will be dumped out of the EU in March next year. Nothing over the last two years fills me with any degree of confidence that the negotiating team have a defined position to even start, more worrying is the fact they think there is a deal to be done. There isn't one outside of the structures defined within article 50 and the constitutions of the EU. The last 18 months have been completely wasted and it is time to let the grown ups have a go.

 

I think the transition period will have to be extended and this is only the EU being kind to us, we haven't negotiated a new and significant trade deal since the triggering of article 50, part because we are unable to do so till we've left but also due to lack of interest globally.

 

We are facing a potential national disaster, stockpiling food and medicines on a scale not seen since times of conflict yet the promise that that is all project fear counters a proper response being put in place. I hope I'm wrong and it is a success, stranger things have happened.

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I'm done with the whole gig, I'm really tired of it now. Tired of the lies, the promises, the propaganda, the arguing, and the fact that no-one is capable of owning it. The whole political system is broken, and stacked against us.

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Sadly, it is happening. With all the grace and finesse of a Rhino reversing a 10 tonne truck. There were more facts in a Student Union election than accurate facts in the 2016 advisory referendum, from both sides.

 

Agree that the political system is broken, I'd go further and say that most of the systems on the planet are outdated and incapable of functioning in the modern, globalist and diverse world we now inhabit. The prevailing consensus is based on the Western Democracies view of the world and its history. A socio-economic model that has only been in existence for 3 or 4 hundred years out of 2 or 3 thousand years is not the natural order, man is not dependent on western capitalism and democracy, these systems developed during this period in history with no thought whether they were fit for purpose. It isn't too long ago that the prevailing model was entirely based on Monarchies and Feudalism. Sticks in my socialist throat to say that no credible alternative has yet been proposed or tried but trying to maintain democratic capitalism just because there is no workable alternative is pretty damning for the one planet with intelligent life in this neck of the galaxy.

 

But, now that the Brexit Minister Dominic Raaaaaab has noticed that Dover is quite close to France and that more than just cheap booze and fags go across that crossing I'm sure the Brexit negotiations will be wrapped up in a matter of minutes.

 

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I personally cant see us coming out of the EU at this point (had a feeling it would go this way from day one) with the total fuck up they are making of it, anyone else?

 

I just feel theyll find some way to keep us in it.

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........ and will Brexit address this -

 

The UK government has inflicted “great misery” on its people with “punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous” austerity policies driven by a political desire to undertake social re-engineering rather than economic necessity, the United Nations poverty envoy has found.
Philip Alston, the UN’s rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, ended a two-week fact-finding mission to the UK with a stinging declaration that despite being the world’s fifth largest economy, levels of child poverty are “not just a disgrace, but a social calamity and an economic disaster”.
About 14 million people, a fifth of the population, live in poverty, and 1.5 million are destitute, unable to afford basic essentials, he said, citing figures from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. He highlighted predictions that child poverty could rise by 7% between 2015 and 2022, possibly up to a rate of 40%.
“It is patently unjust and contrary to British values that so many people are living in poverty,” he said, adding that compassion had been abandoned during almost a decade of austerity policies that had been so profound that key elements of the post-war social contract, devised by William Beveridge more than 70 years ago, had been swept away.

It took a UN envoy to hear how austerity is destroying lives 

In a coruscating 24-page report, which will be presented to the UN human rights council in Geneva next year, the eminent human rights lawyer said that in the UK “poverty is a political choice”.
He told a press conference in London:

  • Austerity Britain was in breach of four UN human rights agreements relating to women, children, disabled people and economic and social rights. “If you got a group of misogynists in a room and said how can we make this system work for men and not for women they would not have come up with too many ideas that are not already in place,” he said.
  • The limit on benefits payments to only the first two children in a family was “in the same ball park” as China’s one-child policy because it punished people who had a third child.
  • Cuts of 50% to council budgets were slashing at Britain’s “culture of local concern” and “damaging the fabric” of society.
  • The middle classes would “find themselves living in an increasingly hostile and unwelcoming society because community roots are being broken”.

The government said it “completely disagreed” with Alston’s analysis.
A spokeperson said household incomes were at a record high, income inequality had fallen and that universal credit, which Alston attacked as “Orwellian” and “fast falling into universal discredit”, was supporting people into work faster.
“We are absolutely committed to helping people improve their lives while providing the right support for those who need it,” the spokesperson said.
Alston’s report follows similar audits of extreme poverty in China, Saudi Arabia, Ghana, Mauritania and the US, the last of which sparked a furious response from the Trump White House after it accused the US of pursuing policies that deliberately forced millions of Americans into financial ruin while lavishing vast riches on the super-wealthy.
Charities working to alleviate poverty said the report was a “wake up call for government”.
It is likely to crystallise growing public unease over the impact of nearly a decade of cuts to the welfare state and public services, which studies have shown have had a disproportionate effect on the poor, the disabled and women. Soaring use of food banks, increasingly visible homelessness and cuts to school budgets have widened concerns about the Conservative party’s fiscal strategy.
 

After visiting towns and cities including London, Oxford, Cardiff, Newcastle, Glasgow and Belfast, Alston said that “obvious to anyone who opens their eyes to see the immense growth in food banks and the queues waiting outside them, the people sleeping rough in the streets, the growth of homelessness, the sense of deep despair that leads even the government to appoint a minister for suicide prevention and civil society to report in depth on unheard-of levels of loneliness and isolation.”
He called for the elimination of the five-week delay in receiving benefits under the universal credit system, which has plunged many into destitution.
Flaws in its design and implementation harmed claimants’ mental health, finances and work prospects, and benefits sanctions were “harsh and arbitrary”. Vulnerable claimants “struggled to survive”, he said.
The ministers he met – including Esther McVey, who was the work and pensions secretary until Thursday, when she resigned over the Brexit deal – were almost entirely dismissive of criticisms of welfare changes and universal credit, he said. Instead they described critics as political saboteurs, or said they failed to understand how it worked.
He highlighted the chancellor’s decision in this month’s budget to give a tax cut to the rich rather than using that money to alleviate poverty for millions, adding: “Austerity could easily have spared the poor, if the political will had existed to do so.”
Alston said the government was in a state of denial and there was a “striking disconnect” between what ministers said and the testimonies he heard from ordinary people.
 
“Even while devolved authorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland are frantically trying to devise ways to ‘mitigate’, or in other words counteract, at least the worst features of the government’s benefits policy, ministers insisted to me that all is well and running according to plan.”
He said he had met people who didn’t have a safe place for their children to sleep, who had sold sex for money or shelter, young people who felt gangs were the only way out of destitution, and people with disabilities who were being told they needed to go back to work or lose support, against their doctors’ orders. He described how town hall budgets had been “gutted” in England resulting in a record sell-off of libraries and parks, and closures of youth centres.
“I have also seen tremendous resilience, strength and generosity, with neighbours supporting one another, councils seeking creative solutions, and charities stepping in to fill holes in government services,” he said.
On food banks, he said: “I was struck by how much their mobilisation resembled the sort of activity you might expect for a natural disaster or health epidemic.”
A common theme of the testimonies he heard was the impact on people’s mental health and feelings of loneliness and fear.
“I was surprised by the talk of suicide, by the people I met who said they had considered suicide … There are some pretty serious mental health dimensions.” 
In his conclusion, Alston called for “the legislative recognition of social rights” in the UK, a move that has long been resisted by UK governments but which is the status quo in countries such as Sweden and Germany.

 

............. this country needs to open it's eyes.  It's not the fault of the EU neither is it the fault of immigrants.  We are where we are because of Tory Government choices.  Demand change

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