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11 minutes ago, disjointed said:

I personally think that whoever was running the country, would have let the scientists and doctors get on with it. 

I agree.

The hybrid public/private partnership worked in this case. I do worry it was approved hastily for political reasons, but the testing has been robust and I  know half the time there is no work going on to approve medication just shuffling papers, so if the Govt gave resources to speed approval then they deserve credit. Extending the furlough now is a good move. I said before they've given more than I think Labour even under Corbyn would.
 

Apart from that though, the IT is creaking, the overspend on PPE, the awarding contracts willy nilly and to friends, the track and trace system, allowing schools to continue wth very little protection to increase spread, the Tier system, and the Christmas relapse have all been hopelessly managed and more decisions for political expediency than science.

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19 minutes ago, LightDN123 said:

If you did that you would only consider the health consequences, and not take into consideration any economic and the knock on effects of neglecting that side. The exact reason it’s unwise to do as you said. 

Except good doctors do consider the economic effects of their advice. Public Health specialists are almost required to consider the economic effects of their advice. 

 

The biopsychosocial model of health has been around since the mid 70s so it was probably being taught in medical schools in the 80s and 90s.

 

I think you'll find the economies of those countries who have had lower incidence of COVID-19 and deaths associated with COVID-19 do better than the economies of countries like the UK.

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32 minutes ago, LightDN123 said:

If you did that you would only consider the health consequences, and not take into consideration any economic and the knock on effects of neglecting that side. The exact reason it’s unwise to do as you said. 


This - it is like being in a war - you go to battle knowing that you can not guarantee the life of everyone in that battle but you weigh up all the facts and then go with the best plan

 

if it was up to Chris Whitty we would be locked up till the end of time

 

(by the way the governments weighing up has still been shit)

 

this is a virus with a 99% survival rate - yes it is dangerous and I’m not downplaying that but we can not cripple the country and keep healthy people locked up indefinitely 

 

for example I work with someone who had a heart attack on his 60th birthday recently  - he then had 2 more in hospital was on life support developed a lung infection and kidney infection - miraculously woke up taken off life support and THEN got COVID in hospital had a bit of a cough and is now home against all the odds and it was everything pre COVID that nearly killed him 

 

At the other end of the scale i had a friend who didn’t have COVID but has lost her business and on 4th November killed herself leaving 3 daughters and a granddaughter - far more are dying than of COVID

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14 minutes ago, Matt said:

 

Correct. It's also how science works.

 

Indeed.

 

'Follow the science'

 

'Which science?'

 

Much though I think they've made a cock of most of it I'm beginning to wonder whether, bar a few specifics, any different but pragmatic approach would have ended much differently

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Looks like we are facing extra restrictions here in Kent. PM press conference later, with details of a new Kent strain being much infectious.

 

Seperate note than mortality is 3x more in deprived areas than the wealthist. 90/100k to 252/100k/

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28 minutes ago, Dave_Og said:

Much though I think they've made a cock of most of it I'm beginning to wonder whether, bar a few specifics, any different but pragmatic approach would have ended much differently

 

I guess a rapidly progressing pandemic with a 24hr rolling news cycle kind of undermines the natural, procedural environment of science. Science under these circumstances can be quoted in the morning, and subsequently thrown under a bus by midday.

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51 minutes ago, Dave_Og said:

 

Indeed.

 

'Follow the science'

 

'Which science?'

 

Much though I think they've made a cock of most of it I'm beginning to wonder whether, bar a few specifics, any different but pragmatic approach would have ended much differently


Absolutely. 
 

...the outcomes seem to have far more to do with geography/society type than any approach to defend against the virus. 

 

Criticism driven purely by hindsight is out of order, but oh so expected from today’s politicians. Especially from those that used to be lawyers... because that’s their training... it’s how they operate.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, kowenicki said:


 

 


Absolutely. 
 

...the outcomes seem to have far more to do with geography/society type than any approach to defend against the virus. 

 

Criticism driven purely by hindsight is out of order, but oh so expected from today’s politicians. Especially from those that used to be lawyers... because that’s their training... it’s how they operate.

 

 

Think the Opposition's been remarkably restrained in their criticisms of the buffoon and his playmates. especially the "golden contracts" given to companies with little expertise in the PPE field and a maritime transport firm with no flotilla ! 

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22 minutes ago, Bobledgersheart said:

Think the Opposition's been remarkably restrained in their criticisms of the buffoon and his playmates. especially the "golden contracts" given to companies with little expertise in the PPE field and a maritime transport firm with no flotilla ! 


“Buffoon” or racist lunatic.. easy choice wasn’t it. 👍🏼

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

 

Don't they just. It's always been not so much the idiots that are selling, but the idiots that are buying.

 

The fact that we've pretty much got a National Front/UKIP hybrid Government seems to sit well with those who pretty much let it ride in the eighties. The English Exit masqueraded as something that would be better for the below average worker, when looking back at it it was a trojan horse for all sorts of fuckery like flag-shagging Patriotism, and therefore privilege.

 

Anyway, there was a thread here started in earnest - can we respect the OP's wishes? Me included.

 

I've moved this away...

Not sure whether to laugh or cry over this particular post.

 

You could have just said, with Brecht, "would it not be simpler if the government simply dissolved the people and elected another?"

 

Just under 14 million votes were cast for the Conservative party at the 2019 election. If only those "idiots" had known they were voting for the NF/UKIP eh?

 

 

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18 hours ago, disjointed said:

Of course it was, the Labour Party has a history of shooting itself in the foot, I only hope Starmer unites the party, as a morally bankrupt tory party is creating so many divisions in the country. 


No chance. He is a disaster waiting to happen. Half the Labour Party hate him and the public will not forget that he was the architect of their ‘stance’ on Brexit. He is a fence sitter. He is and always will behave like a lawyer... he not got a political bone in his body. 

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1 hour ago, Worcester Owl said:

Just under 14 million votes were cast for the Conservative party at the 2019 election. If only those "idiots" had known they were voting for the NF/UKIP eh?

 

 

 

Does that make you uncomfortable? That's what we have, and I'll keep saying it too - and I'm not happy about it either. I always look at the generation born immediately after the war and - with a minority of exceptions - do the exact opposite to them. I believe that the success of right-wing projects like The English Exit with our senior electorate is at least in part a response to a fundamental emptiness at the heart of the consumerism under which they have lived most of their lives. Cashed in on the future for short-term gain. It's a fuck up, and most of those who fucked it up are laughing all the way to their off-shore bank. I think Aristotle said that.

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20 minutes ago, LaticMark said:

 

Tier 4.

Christmas is cancelled.

We were only going to be two households and an 89 year old, that cannot happen now.

My brother in law and sister in law both work at the hospital for the borough.
3 wards are being used for Covid, it's sister hospital is is the 2nd worst affected area in the country and strugglng for beds, so their hospital is the overspill.
My 14 yo son has been off for a week, as 5 in his class were asymptomatic but were tested due to benefit of parent or actually fibbing about symptoms. It is rife in his school. It is a school has been able to adopt many stringent practices, but still it is rife.
The symptomatic nature is the real risk, of passing it on unknnowingly.

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5 hours ago, Matt said:

 

Trade doors will be open by mid afternoon.  Travel for others will probably still be limited... but it should be anyway!  Also if they think the new strain is limited to the UK then they are more deluded than I thought.

 

I can understand their nervousness in Europe though… given their utterly shambolic approach to vaccine procurement.  To think, not that long ago the media were attacking the UK government for not being part of the EU program, funny.

 

https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-planning-disaster-germany-and-europe-could-fall-short-on-vaccine-supplies-a-3db4702d-ae23-4e85-85b7-20145a898abd

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, kowenicki said:

I can understand their nervousness in Europe though… given their utterly shambolic approach to vaccine procurement.  To think, not that long ago the media were attacking the UK government for not being part of the EU program, funny.

On the flip side of the coin:-

Moderna vaccine

UK bought 40M @ £28 which equals £1.12 billion

EU bought 40M @ $18=£13.31 which was 532,400,000 

Another £587,600,00 gone, but we all know this Govt can spend money like it is going out of fashion (or a Lab Govt)

 

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1 hour ago, whittles left foot said:

On the flip side of the coin:-

Moderna vaccine

UK bought 40M @ £28 which equals £1.12 billion

EU bought 40M @ $18=£13.31 which was 532,400,000 

Another £587,600,00 gone, but we all know this Govt can spend money like it is going out of fashion (or a Lab Govt)

 

 

Fair enough, athough I thought we'd only ordered 7m Moderna as part of the 357m total we have secured, but this is not the full story anway.  I'm not sure price is the main issue here.  I'd rather we had enough vaccines and that the vaccines are on the way that be haggling and waiting.

 

We have twice as may vaccines per capita already ordered and secured when compared to the EU.

 

Source: Guardian

 

The UK, like the EU, has paid a considerable amount of money up front to help in the development of a number of vaccines that may or may not work, including AstraZeneca’s, so the final prices for those will be lower. However, it did not support Pfizer/BioNTech nor Moderna, so will be left with a high price tag for those vaccines.

The United States has paid higher prices than Europe. Bernstein Research, an analysis and investment firm, calculated that the EU has a 24% discount on the Pfizer vaccine compared with the United States. Part of the reason may be that Europe helped fund the original research by BioNTech.

The US will pay $4 a dose for the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine under development, compared with the EU price of €1.78, which is 45% cheaper, according to Bernstein.

At the other end of the scale, Moderna’s vaccine, developed in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with $2.5bn of funding and orders from Operation Warp Speed, will cost 20% more on the European market – $18 a dose compared with $15 in the US.

 

Source .gov

 

We have secured early access to over 357 million vaccines doses through agreements with several separate vaccine developers at various stages of trials, including:

  • 100 million doses of University of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
  • 40 million doses of BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
  • 7 million doses of Moderna vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
  • 60 million doses of Novavax vaccine – phase 3 clinical trials
  • 60 million doses of Valneva vaccine – pre-clinical trials
  • 60 million doses of GSK/Sanofi Pasteur vaccine – phase 1 clinical trials
  • 30 million doses of Janssen vaccine – phase 2 clinical trials
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Port situation is getting a bit fractious, looks like the French authorities are insisting that drivers have to prove a negative Covid test within in the 24 hours prior to arrival. There is a possibility that they'll be tested on arrival,not sure how much time it'll add to the journey (maybe about 6000-7000 drivers a day?) - the thing that works in our favour is that the continental fresh food producers need markets quickly, and the hauliers over on the other side of the channel need this resolving just like we do, but it's already gone on longer than anticipated.

 

The other thing is that dropping trailers to go across is all well and good, but it's adding another level of logistics that until this morning didn't exist - so everyone in the industry is thinking on their feet trying to get around it. There just isn't enough drivers and units to cope with this at the moment, especially at this time of year.

 

Also, container vessels from main ports in China are now starting to miss Southampton and Felixstowe because of heavy congestion at these ports too, I've never seen this before. The births aren't freeing up in time. They'd rather keep schedule in Rotterdam etc and then come back to the UK in two weeks. It's adding 14 days to a 45 day trip. Adding to the fact that it now costs about $10,000 for a forty foot box out of Shanghai, Qingdao, Ningbo instead of roughly $3000, goods are taking longer to get to the UK and will - eventually - cost more to the consumer. Problem is that since manufacturing has fired back up in China, they've been exporting 3 boxes to 1 returning so container space is a premium - and they'd rather send the boxes East to America where it only takes 14 days at the same $10,000 FOB freight price.

 

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28 minutes ago, Matt said:

Incompetence and hubris. Is there a word for surrounding yourself with idiots who are only in a job because of a one policy election, and don't exactly understand that policy? Must be something in German.

 

Nepokuntzbewilderkronischitztorm

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