Official COVID-19 megathread

[Monty Burns]

4 hours ago, Magic Mikey said:

Nepo

Could do a job..

[League one forever]

On 12/19/2020 at 4:19 PM, Matt said:

 

Does that make you uncomfortable? That's what we have, and I'll keep saying it too - and I'm not happy about it either. I always look at the generation born immediately after the war and - with a minority of exceptions - do the exact opposite to them. I believe that the success of right-wing projects like The English Exit with our senior electorate is at least in part a response to a fundamental emptiness at the heart of the consumerism under which they have lived most of their lives. Cashed in on the future for short-term gain. It's a fuck up, and most of those who fucked it up are laughing all the way to their off-shore bank. I think Aristotle said that.

Disagree. 

Why on earth would it make him uncomfortable? Because ‘being one of them’ he won’t understand what you’re inferring? Highly patronising and judgemental.  

Unless you’ve met each person of the generation after the war. Which I suspect you haven’t, then you’re massively generalising a group of people which a quite frankly bizarre assumption of their values and morals. You - like I - only have our own Opinion, to argue what groups voted for is a total fallacy and impossible to know. 
 

Simple economics tells you that the 5th largest economy in the world with its own central bank will never go to wall. Nor it will become some back water in Malawi. I voted out because pound for pound we punch well above our weight and could and will do so much better without being tied into the EU. I knew when I voted it was short term pain for long term benefit. 
 

That is my view. I’m 38, and I was born a long time after the war. I have no idea why the next man voted the way he did. Nor would I would cast aspersions or judge his/her reasoning. 

[nzlatic]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

Disagree. 

Why on earth would it make him uncomfortable? Because ‘being one of them’ he won’t understand what you’re inferring? Highly patronising and judgemental.  

Unless you’ve met each person of the generation after the war. Which I suspect you haven’t, then you’re massively generalising a group of people which a quite frankly bizarre assumption of their values and morals. You - like I - only have our own Opinion, to argue what groups voted for is a total fallacy and impossible to know. 
 

Simple economics tells you that the 5th largest economy in the world with its own central bank will never go to wall. Nor it will become some back water in Malawi. I voted out because pound for pound we punch well above our weight and could and will do so much better without being tied into the EU. I knew when I voted it was short term pain for long term benefit. 
 

That is my view. I’m 38, and I was born a long time after the war. I have no idea why the next man voted the way he did. Nor would I would cast aspersions or judge his/her reasoning. 

I know this is a Covid thread, but I’m always curious about the short term pain vs long term benefit argument with brexit and interested in the thinking behind it. If you don’t mind me asking, what short term pain were you willing to accept or did you expect when you voted in 2016? What are the long term benefits you expect to see? And how many months/years do you mean when you say short/long term?

[Matt]

2 hours ago, League one forever said:

Unless you’ve met each person of the generation after the war. Which I suspect you haven’t, then you’re massively generalising a group of people which a quite frankly bizarre assumption of their values and morals. You - like I - only have our own Opinion, to argue what groups voted for is a total fallacy and impossible to know. 

 

Simple economics.... I voted out because pound for pound we punch well above our weight and could and will do so much better without being tied into the EU.......I knew when I voted it was short term pain for long term benefit. 
 

That is my view. I’m 38, and I was born a long time after the war. I have no idea why the next man voted the way he did. Nor would I would cast aspersions or judge his/her reasoning. 

 

Thanks for the reply. I'm not looking for people to agree with me - nor am I going to change anything or anyone's view. I get what you're saying about generalisations - I think it's not so bizarre when we consider 70% of 64+ year olds voted to leave (70% of 18-24 year olds voted to remain) and it might have been higher for the BXP crossover Conservative vote in 2019 (I haven't extensively checked that) of course I haven't met everyone, but we can form a picture of the demographic through the data - and the opinion can be argued against. I get it, I do - it came across a bit nasty and I apologise.

 

I'm 50. I voted to remain, it became clear to me that after reading whatever I could, trying my best to understand it, and listening to dmany - many different points of view, my own view started to align with the people who cared more about equality without prejudice, workers rights, tackling child poverty, free healthcare, high quality education, and aligned less with people who expressed an "overly nationalistic trait" shall we say. For me personally, I could see a Leave narrative that didn't sit well with me at all.

 

We are where we are, and whatever we voted for - nobody knows what it was, what it is, or what it's going to be - which was another reason I couldn't vote for it in 2016. It's was all assumptions. In an alternative universe there would have been United Kingdom politicians and Government departments who explored Leave properly, studied all aspects carefully, reviewed our situations and impacts, got 'ducks in a row' first, and delivered a coherent procedure to the nation that we could all vote on without a simple majority result.

 

Speaking of assumptions (incidentally, we agree about the pain) but, please could you quantify what the long term gains are?

[League one forever]

6 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

I know this is a Covid thread, but I’m always curious about the short term pain vs long term benefit argument with brexit and interested in the thinking behind it. If you don’t mind me asking, what short term pain were you willing to accept or did you expect when you voted in 2016? What are the long term benefits you expect to see? And how many months/years do you mean when you say short/long term?

Despite the brinkmanship we will get a deal. However there will be hit to GDP certainly over the first five years. As In that time certain industries will flounder as they struggle to adapt and others will flourish. There will be a rebalancing, and it will take time. ( Of course I didn’t know in 2016 covid was coming which doesn’t help but my thought pattern is still the same.) Fishing is a good example - we can’t ‘take back’ our quota, because the common fisheries policy which was agreed a long time ago decimated the industry and we don’t have a big enough fleet. What we can do is renegotiate a fairer catch over period of time that will bring jobs and help to rebuild our coastal economies, while at the same giving us a market to sell to. Far better than what we have now, but again it will take time. How long? I  don’t expect to see the benefits for another five ten to years from now as nothing has actually changed yet- so ‘brexit’ starts on the 1st of Jan.
 

What are the benefits? 

 

Not having a diluted say or having to constantly compromise with 27 other nations, who will naturally be looking at what suits them not us. 
 

Not having the red tape and long drawn out negotiations- particularly around trade. Remember when the EU kept telling us 12 months was impossible to negotiate a trade deal. . It’s amazing what they can pull out they need to. 
 

Being able to give tax incentives to open our ports to goods from all over the world instead having to follow EU restrictions. 
 

Hiring the best people from all over the world in whatever sector we need through a points based system. (Furthermore I want immigration to flourish - but based on our need and skills requirement.) 

 

All of the above will IMO from circa 2030 start to reap dividends as these things take affect. We will be richer, and our economy will be more diverse. Crucially we will be more adaptable to what we need without being hamstrung. There is a very good reason why the EU want a level playing field. Because they know our potential if given to much leeway-otherwise why not just let us crack on?? 
 

I often hear people who voted in talk about workers rights/environmental standards. Who do they think we’re the architects in setting up those up? Us. We have the highest standards anywhere in the world, and if the reports are true we have already agreed to the EU’s ask on the non regression clause- which basically means we won’t deregulate industry just to get ahead. Quite right to.
 

Brexit for me is about building on what already works, and having the power to reform what isn’t. But most importantly it’s about backing what we could be, without accepting what we’ve got for fear of what if. 
 

 

 

 

 

[LightDN123]

47 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Despite the brinkmanship we will get a deal. However there will be hit to GDP certainly over the first five years. As In that time certain industries will flounder as they struggle to adapt and others will flourish. There will be a rebalancing, and it will take time. ( Of course I didn’t know in 2016 covid was coming which doesn’t help but my thought pattern is still the same.) Fishing is a good example - we can’t ‘take back’ our quota, because the common fisheries policy which was agreed a long time ago decimated the industry and we don’t have a big enough fleet. What we can do is renegotiate a fairer catch over period of time that will bring jobs and help to rebuild our coastal economies, while at the same giving us a market to sell to. Far better than what we have now, but again it will take time. How long? I  don’t expect to see the benefits for another five ten to years from now as nothing has actually changed yet- so ‘brexit’ starts on the 1st of Jan.
 

What are the benefits? 

 

Not having a diluted say or having to constantly compromise with 27 other nations, who will naturally be looking at what suits them not us. 
 

Not having the red tape and long drawn out negotiations- particularly around trade. Remember when the EU kept telling us 12 months was impossible to negotiate a trade deal. . It’s amazing what they can pull out they need to. 
 

Being able to give tax incentives to open our ports to goods from all over the world instead having to follow EU restrictions. 
 

Hiring the best people from all over the world in whatever sector we need through a points based system. (Furthermore I want immigration to flourish - but based on our need and skills requirement.) 

 

All of the above will IMO from circa 2030 start to reap dividends as these things take affect. We will be richer, and our economy will be more diverse. Crucially we will be more adaptable to what we need without being hamstrung. There is a very good reason why the EU want a level playing field. Because they know our potential if given to much leeway-otherwise why not just let us crack on?? 
 

I often hear people who voted in talk about workers rights/environmental standards. Who do they think we’re the architects in setting up those up? Us. We have the highest standards anywhere in the world, and if the reports are true we have already agreed to the EU’s ask on the non regression clause- which basically means we won’t deregulate industry just to get ahead. Quite right to.
 

Brexit for me is about building on what already works, and having the power to reform what isn’t. But most importantly it’s about backing what we could be, without accepting what we’ve got for fear of what if. 
 

 

 

 

 

BoJo is that you 

[Matt]

6 hours ago, League one forever said:

Despite the brinkmanship we will get a deal. However there will be hit to GDP certainly over the first five years. As In that time certain industries will flounder as they struggle to adapt and others will flourish. There will be a rebalancing, and it will take time. ( Of course I didn’t know in 2016 covid was coming which doesn’t help but my thought pattern is still the same.) Fishing is a good example - we can’t ‘take back’........

 

 

So you don't know either, that's fine - 2030 seems just enough of an assumption placed in the future for us all to forget what it was we set as a target anyway. The fact that we open the debate with the symbolic £400m a year (car manufacturing £50bn a year) fishing quota (of which two thirds are Scottish anyway) tells me that there's nothing new here, and the bit about getting rid of bureaucracy is depressing - if only that was the case - it's being sold as the 'Deconstruction of the Administrative State' with Oligarchies as replacement.

 

Add to this the fact that it had to take a hugely incompetent single-policy Government to not understand it either, so we've got no chance.

 

I'm no lover of the EU, it's deeply flawed as a capitalist federation - the kids wanted a chance to work with it, but they never got the opportunity. It's a mess.

 

[League one forever]

35 minutes ago, Matt said:

 

So you don't know either, that's fine - 2030 seems just enough of an assumption placed in the future for us all to forget what it was we set as a target anyway. The fact that we open the debate with the symbolic £400m a year (car manufacturing £50bn a year) fishing quota (of which two thirds are Scottish anyway) tells me that there's nothing new here, and the bit about getting rid of bureaucracy is depressing - if only that was the case - it's being sold as the 'Deconstruction of the Administrative State' with Oligarchies as replacement.

 

Add to this the fact that it had to take a hugely incompetent single-policy Government to not understand it either, so we've got no chance.

 

I'm no lover of the EU, it's deeply flawed as a capitalist federation - the kids wanted a chance to work with it, but they never got the opportunity. It's a mess.

 

Of course it’s assumption- Isn’t every vote?? I assume the government of the day will stick to their manifesto. . . they rarely do. 
 

I could offer counter argument all day, as I am sad bastard who finds this shit genuinely interesting. But it gets boring very quickly, and it’s Christmas.

 

Appreciated the previous reply as well.  
 

[Magic Mikey]

8 minutes ago, League one forever said:

Of course it’s assumption- Isn’t every vote?? I assume the government of the day will stick to their manifesto. . . they rarely do. 
 

I could offer counter argument all day, as I am sad bastard who finds this shit genuinely interesting. But it gets boring very quickly, and it’s Christmas.

 

Appreciated the previous reply as well.  
 

Well done for having a go at an argument. Matt asked you to quantify the benefits and you wandered off into the realms of vague rhetoric. As the great Daniel Kitson once said, people don't go around waiting to have their minds changed. The referendum and the election were vastly influenced, not by subtle arguments but by simple lies. Lies on the side of a bus, lies about an "oven ready deal". 

It does get boring and I'm not going to try and change any minds. I'm going to sit back and watch with bated breath to see if the fishing industry can overtake the turnover of Harrods. 

[League one forever]

14 minutes ago, Magic Mikey said:

Well done for having a go at an argument. Matt asked you to quantify the benefits and you wandered off into the realms of vague rhetoric. As the great Daniel Kitson once said, people don't go around waiting to have their minds changed. The referendum and the election were vastly influenced, not by subtle arguments but by simple lies. Lies on the side of a bus, lies about an "oven ready deal". 

It does get boring and I'm not going to try and change any minds. I'm going to sit back and watch with bated breath to see if the fishing industry can overtake the turnover of Harrods. 

Well done??
 

Wandered off.

 

Vague rhetoric. 

The air of superiority still astounds me.

 

Matt listened and gave a balanced and reasoned response. You’re incapable, which is a shame as I had you down as quite bright. 
 

Merry Christmas. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

Of course it’s assumption- Isn’t every vote?? I assume the government of the day will stick to their manifesto...
 

 

I guess so, the difference being that if they don't stick to it we can democratically (FPTP FWIW) vote against it in another GE.

 

Whereas in this situation, it's proceeding down the sunk cost fallacy route of Leave at all costs, no matter what based on nothing at all, nothing - and we don't get another chance. No-one has ever offered a suite of benefits that is any better than the set up (albeit flawed) we already have - you couldn't, and I'm guessing that was the best opening you have in a game that's much too complicated for us to consider.

 

Anyway, this is exactly what I didn't want to happen - and I'm half to blame, lets stick to COVID

[Matt]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

The air of superiority still astounds me.

 

You’re incapable, which is a shame as I had you down as quite bright. 
 

Merry Christmas. 

 

You know that you undid everything posted above by writing that second sentance? Let's not fall out.

[League one forever]

39 minutes ago, Matt said:

 

You know that you undid everything posted above by writing that second sentance? Let's not fall out.

I enjoy the debate Matt. I don’t enjoy being patronised for holding a different view.

 

46 minutes ago, Matt said:

 

I guess so, the difference being that if they don't stick to it we can democratically (FPTP FWIW) vote against it in another GE.

 

Whereas in this situation, it's proceeding down the sunk cost fallacy route of Leave at all costs, no matter what based on nothing at all, nothing - and we don't get another chance. No-one has ever offered a suite of benefits that is any better than the set up (albeit flawed) we already have - you couldn't, and I'm guessing that was the best opening you have in a game that's much too complicated for us to consider.

 

Anyway, this is exactly what I didn't want to happen - and I'm half to blame, lets stick to COVID

Leave at all costs? Aren’t we still negotiating? Is there a chance we have some bright minds working in our interest? 
 

Your second point goes to the nub of the issue. Why change something when you have no guarantees? Well, why do anything then?? Just accept the status quo as is because it can’t be bettered or reformed. 

[Magic Mikey]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

Well done??
 

Wandered off.

 

Vague rhetoric. 

The air of superiority still astounds me.

 

Matt listened and gave a balanced and reasoned response. You’re incapable, which is a shame as I had you down as quite bright. 
 

Merry Christmas. 

Not intended to be patronising. Just pointing out the lack of quantifiable benefits in your response to Matt. However, you appear to be deliberately insulting. As I said, I see no point in a debate between people with entrenched views. Matt has made the points better than I could anyway. 

The irony of you calling me quite bright whilst getting upset about me (unintentionally) patronising you was obviously lost on you. BTW, I see myself as more of a self aware smart arse. 

Merry Christmas 

[Chaddyexile84]

10 hours ago, League one forever said:

 

 

Not having a diluted say or having to constantly compromise with 27 other nations, who will naturally be looking at what suits them not us. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I really don’t get - the us and them mentality which in a lot of cases does come down to over nationalistic, “we were an empire once you know” (not saying that’s the view of the poster but certainly the flag waving God Save the Queen brigade)

 

It’s a Union - does anyone really think 27 countries huddle together to shaft poor little Britain - we aren’t that important!

 

Glad I only have to suffer for 10 years though - almost as good as doing murder 

 

 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, League one forever said:

Leave at all costs? Aren’t we still negotiating? Is there a chance we have some bright minds working in our interest? 
 

Your second point goes to the nub of the issue. Why change something when you have no guarantees? Well, why do anything then?? Just accept the status quo as is because it can’t be bettered or reformed. 

 

Absolutely nothing is convincing me that we have the brightest minds working for our interest. You mentioned in an earlier post about having the best people in the places we need them to benefit the country, there's no evidence of that at all. None whatsoever, which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence - which is exactly what is needed to support 'The Market'.

 

This kind of reinforces my second point you alluded to earlier, it's like watching someone take apart an engine for a service - and then putting it back together without the performance it had before. Of course, the engine was missing like crazy before the service, but now it's missing and using more fuel as well. Probably not a good analogy that, but I get what I'm trying to say.

 

Quote

Leave at all costs?

 

Well it is, we've elected a Goverment on a one-policy manifesto, with it's focus on Leave at the detriment to the other departments.

 

Quote

Aren’t we still negotiating?

 

I have absolutely no idea. Are we? It's interesting that we're (me and you and others chatting in this thread) are playing through the same debates that the country had five, six years ago - nothing as progressed much more than what we're discussing above - and that is reason enough, for me at least, to suggest they don't have a bloody clue what to do, or how to go about it. Northern Ireland, fish, travel, imports, the state of the Kingdom. It's all a bit 1p chew in a ha'penny mix tray. I'm at it again, probably a poor analogy.

[League one forever]

8 minutes ago, Magic Mikey said:

Not intended to be patronising. Just pointing out the lack of quantifiable benefits in your response to Matt. However, you appear to be deliberately insulting. As I said, I see no point in a debate between people with entrenched views. Matt has made the points better than I could anyway. 

The irony of you calling me quite bright whilst getting upset about me (unintentionally) patronising you was obviously lost on you. BTW, I see myself as more of a self aware smart arse. 

Merry Christmas 

If only you’d said that the first time. .

 

You see no point in a debate with people with such entrenched views, yet contribute to that debate with an entrenched view. . . 
 

People conflate agreement with debate. Matt said earlier I’m not trying to change anyone mind- that’s fair enough. He sees things differently to me, as you do and that’s ok. What I don’t like is when one side thinks they are enlightened or the view has a higher moral compass. It doesn’t.  Neither of us is right or wrong, because to large degree we are both guessing and assuming. So all you’re left with is you’re gut, and that frames how you make the argument. 

[nzlatic]

22 minutes ago, League one forever said:

If only you’d said that the first time. .

 

You see no point in a debate with people with such entrenched views, yet contribute to that debate with an entrenched view. . . 
 

People conflate agreement with debate. Matt said earlier I’m not trying to change anyone mind- that’s fair enough. He sees things differently to me, as you do and that’s ok. What I don’t like is when one side thinks they are enlightened or the view has a higher moral compass. It doesn’t.  Neither of us is right or wrong, because to large degree we are both guessing and assuming. So all you’re left with is you’re gut, and that frames how you make the argument. 

Appreciate you responding to my questions.  But I disagree with the notion that 2 differing opinions can be equally as valid, which seems to be what you're suggesting here.

 

To take a couple of the things you've mentioned...

Fishing - this represents such a relatively small fraction of GDP or employment numbers.  And the quantities of fish in our waters is finite.  To hold this as a good example of how we can benefit from Brexit doesn't stack up.  If we're going to experience 10 years of economic downturn then that will mean huge job losses.  Fishing won't even come close to redressing that.

 

Immigration - what was stopping us attracting the "brightest and best" before? will probably attract less due to the barriers that will no doubt be in place with visa applications etc. A doctor who would qualify may not feel that welcome if their partner is deemed not worthy under the points system.  Not to mention the huge amount of lower skilled work done by immigrants in this country.  What happens to those jobs?  Also immigrants are net contributors to the economy.  And we could have exercised our powers under the eu system to kick people out who stayed past 3 months without getting a job anyway if we were worried about scroungers.

 

The reason for saying all this is not to continue an old argument, or to try and change people's minds.  The argument is done, Brexit is happening.  My reason for saying this is to challenge the concept that all opinions should be given equal validity.  And to bring it back to the thread topic - we're seeing this with Covid.  A talk radio host's opinion is given as much credence of well respected epidemiologists. That's just wrong, and is causing real issues in how we're dealing with the pandemic.  In my opinion 

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

My reason for saying this is to challenge the concept that all opinions should be given equal validity.  And to bring it back to the thread topic - we're seeing this with Covid.  A talk radio host's opinion is given as much credence of well respected epidemiologists. That's just wrong, and is causing real issues in how we're dealing with the pandemic. 

 

I see it exactly the same way.

[Chaddyexile84]

12 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

Appreciate you responding to my questions.  But I disagree with the notion that 2 differing opinions can be equally as valid, which seems to be what you're suggesting here.

 

To take a couple of the things you've mentioned...

Fishing - this represents such a relatively small fraction of GDP or employment numbers.  And the quantities of fish in our waters is finite.  To hold this as a good example of how we can benefit from Brexit doesn't stack up.  If we're going to experience 10 years of economic downturn then that will mean huge job losses.  Fishing won't even come close to redressing that.

 

Immigration - what was stopping us attracting the "brightest and best" before? will probably attract less due to the barriers that will no doubt be in place with visa applications etc. A doctor who would qualify may not feel that welcome if their partner is deemed not worthy under the points system.  Not to mention the huge amount of lower skilled work done by immigrants in this country.  What happens to those jobs?  Also immigrants are net contributors to the economy.  And we could have exercised our powers under the eu system to kick people out who stayed past 3 months without getting a job anyway if we were worried about scroungers.

 

The reason for saying all this is not to continue an old argument, or to try and change people's minds.  The argument is done, Brexit is happening.  My reason for saying this is to challenge the concept that all opinions should be given equal validity.  And to bring it back to the thread topic - we're seeing this with Covid.  A talk radio host's opinion is given as much credence of well respected epidemiologists. That's just wrong, and is causing real issues in how we're dealing with the pandemic.  In my opinion 

You’re wrong 

 

we are all going to become fishermen (and ladies)

 

the best and brightest in the world will come to be fishermen (and ladies) here 

[Dave_Og]

56 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

 But I disagree with the notion that 2 differing opinions can be equally as valid, which seems to be what you're suggesting here.

 

Very much the modern way sadly and without reference to this particular debate it is utter, utter bollocks. 

[latics22]

4 hours ago, Magic Mikey said:

Well done for having a go at an argument. Matt asked you to quantify the benefits and you wandered off into the realms of vague rhetoric. As the great Daniel Kitson once said, people don't go around waiting to have their minds changed. The referendum and the election were vastly influenced, not by subtle arguments but by simple lies. Lies on the side of a bus, lies about an "oven ready deal". 

It does get boring and I'm not going to try and change any minds. I'm going to sit back and watch with bated breath to see if the fishing industry can overtake the turnover of Harrods. 

I hate it when people bring up the bus, as if that one bus made eveyone vote leave. People made informed decisions they didnt fall for propaganda,  which was span by both sides by the way

[League one forever]

1 hour ago, nzlatic said:

Appreciate you responding to my questions.  But I disagree with the notion that 2 differing opinions can be equally as valid, which seems to be what you're suggesting here.

 

To take a couple of the things you've mentioned...

Fishing - this represents such a relatively small fraction of GDP or employment numbers.  And the quantities of fish in our waters is finite.  To hold this as a good example of how we can benefit from Brexit doesn't stack up.  If we're going to experience 10 years of economic downturn then that will mean huge job losses.  Fishing won't even come close to redressing that.

 

Immigration - what was stopping us attracting the "brightest and best" before? will probably attract less due to the barriers that will no doubt be in place with visa applications etc. A doctor who would qualify may not feel that welcome if their partner is deemed not worthy under the points system.  Not to mention the huge amount of lower skilled work done by immigrants in this country.  What happens to those jobs?  Also immigrants are net contributors to the economy.  And we could have exercised our powers under the eu system to kick people out who stayed past 3 months without getting a job anyway if we were worried about scroungers.

 

The reason for saying all this is not to continue an old argument, or to try and change people's minds.  The argument is done, Brexit is happening.  My reason for saying this is to challenge the concept that all opinions should be given equal validity.  And to bring it back to the thread topic - we're seeing this with Covid.  A talk radio host's opinion is given as much credence of well respected epidemiologists. That's just wrong, and is causing real issues in how we're dealing with the pandemic.  In my opinion 

Jeez - another debate there.
 

To clarify- unless someone on here works in the top echelons of government then their opinion has no more credence than mine. It’s framed on what we choose to read, and who we choose to listen to. Which is guided by our values and beliefs. Then we espouse what we ‘know’ like it has some gravitas. It doesn’t. We are all guessing! Both sides. 
 

If someone came on who was closer to things then absolutely their opinion has more validity than mine. 
 

Lastly, I know how small the fishing industry is, I was just using it as an example to try answer your question of how things can be improved and when that might kick in. 

[disjointed]

5 minutes ago, latics22 said:

I hate it when people bring up the bus, as if that one bus made eveyone vote leave. People made informed decisions they didnt fall for propaganda,  which was span by both sides by the way

To take the biggest lie round the country on the side of a bus, people are bound to keep bringing it up. 

[League one forever]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

 

Absolutely nothing is convincing me that we have the brightest minds working for our interest. You mentioned in an earlier post about having the best people in the places we need them to benefit the country, there's no evidence of that at all. None whatsoever, which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence - which is exactly what is needed to support 'The Market'.

 

This kind of reinforces my second point you alluded to earlier, it's like watching someone take apart an engine for a service - and then putting it back together without the performance it had before. Of course, the engine was missing like crazy before the service, but now it's missing and using more fuel as well. Probably not a good analogy that, but I get what I'm trying to say.

 

 

Well it is, we've elected a Goverment on a one-policy manifesto, with it's focus on Leave at the detriment to the other departments.

 

 

I have absolutely no idea. Are we? It's interesting that we're (me and you and others chatting in this thread) are playing through the same debates that the country had five, six years ago - nothing as progressed much more than what we're discussing above - and that is reason enough, for me at least, to suggest they don't have a bloody clue what to do, or how to go about it. Northern Ireland, fish, travel, imports, the state of the Kingdom. It's all a bit 1p chew in a ha'penny mix tray. I'm at it again, probably a poor analogy.

How deep is your knowledge Matt? 
 

How can you possibly have evidence of every sector and what their needs are? You keep asking for answers and substantial proof of things that haven’t happened yet? How does that work? 
 

To use your analogy, you’ve already decided that the engine won’t work as well before you’ve even started the rebuild.