Where are the EFL ?

[peanuts2]

The deafening silence from RickParry and the EFL is noticable throughout the current crisis yet again as per Bury Macc Bolton etc complete silence head in the sand untill it's too late attitude .if ever there is an organisation that is not fit for purpose it's the EFL .Roll on the parliamentary revue hopefully a body with some teeth will come of it and get rid of the Old boys club in charge 

[deyres42]

With all respect there isn't really a crisis. As long as we are meeting financial obligations and fulfilling fixtures then there isn't a whole lot they can do.

[SweeperKeeper]

1 hour ago, peanuts2 said:

The deafening silence from RickParry and the EFL is noticable throughout the current crisis yet again as per Bury Macc Bolton etc complete silence head in the sand untill it's too late attitude .if ever there is an organisation that is not fit for purpose it's the EFL .Roll on the parliamentary revue hopefully a body with some teeth will come of it and get rid of the Old boys club in charge 

As you say the EFL are completely hands-off, toothless and useless.

 

On the other hand, if they were more like the leagues in France, Germany, Italy where every club has to prove at the start of each season that they aren't a basket case to get a license to play, I am not sure we'd still be in the league now.

 

There's only so much any league can do to control owners.  Therefore, the key in the long term is to give fan members a majority on the board to control the owners, as is the case in Germany.  It doesn't work perfectly there, but it's miles better than the situation here.

 

It'll never happen in England though, too many owners stand to lose too much money and control.

[BP1960]

6 minutes ago, SweeperKeeper said:

As you say the EFL are completely hands-off, toothless and useless.

 

On the other hand, if they were more like the leagues in France, Germany, Italy where every club has to prove at the start of each season that they aren't a basket case to get a license to play, I am not sure we'd still be in the league now.

 

There's only so much any league can do to control owners.  Therefore, the key in the long term is to give fan members a majority on the board to control the owners, as is the case in Germany.  It doesn't work perfectly there, but it's miles better than the situation here.

 

It'll never happen in England though, too many owners stand to lose too much money and control.

 

Or like AL, lose money and still control.

[al_bro]

6 hours ago, SweeperKeeper said:

As you say the EFL are completely hands-off, toothless and useless.

 

On the other hand, if they were more like the leagues in France, Germany, Italy where every club has to prove at the start of each season that they aren't a basket case to get a license to play, I am not sure we'd still be in the league now.

 

There's only so much any league can do to control owners.  Therefore, the key in the long term is to give fan members a majority on the board to control the owners, as is the case in Germany.  It doesn't work perfectly there, but it's miles better than the situation here.

 

It'll never happen in England though, too many owners stand to lose too much money and control.

The club had to provide a three year business plan in order to get the loan. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

 

What realistically can the EFL do? I would expect they are keeping an eye on the situation, but how can they intervene? AL hasn't done anything wrong as far as they are concerned. He seems to be paying wages now and is not being fraudulent in any way. The fact he hasn't got a clue how to communicate properly with fans isn't their concern. They should have been all over the treatment of players (eg. Wheater), but they weren't.

[Crusoe]

EFL is there to protect the “competition”. Which I assume means the interests of the clubs forming it, providing they’re more or less in line and not rocking the boat. Until AL is actually pissing off the majority of club owners - and I assume the occasional strife over loan fees is pretty standard, low fuss fare - they won’t do much other than maybe a statement expressing concern. 
 

They’re not there to do what’s best for fans or players. Not even mentioned in their About page. Like HR departments - they’re not there to protect employees’ interests, but the overall organisation. 
 

That said, if AL starts messing about with ticketing arrangements to the degree that it risks costing other clubs income then I imagine the EFL could collectively come down on him like a ton of bricks. So he could be the architect of his own misfortune (well, more so than is already the case).

 

[deyres42]

20 minutes ago, al_bro said:

The club had to provide a three year business plan in order to get the loan. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

 

What realistically can the EFL do? I would expect they are keeping an eye on the situation, but how can they intervene? AL hasn't done anything wrong as far as they are concerned. He seems to be paying wages now and is not being fraudulent in any way. The fact he hasn't got a clue how to communicate properly with fans isn't their concern. They should have been all over the treatment of players (eg. Wheater), but they weren't.

Treatment of players would be more PFA territory. But as long as club is providing adequate training facilities for the player there isn't a whole lot they can do.

[Dave_Og]

Before slating the EFL best to read their rules and their role. They aren't there to tell people how to run thir businesses. 

[basilrobbie]

You will never catch me defending the EFL. A High Court Judge offered them one hundred and sixty pages of evidence of wrong-doing in his Judgement in our case and they still failed to take any action.

 

But that was 2017 under Harvey, and a lot has happened since then. A lot more is likely to happen between now and 2023 or so as well, by which time they may well have no role at all in this kind of regulatory sphere.

 

So they are in a bit of a cleft stick. On the one hand they have traditionally acted as a glorified shop steward for club owners, whilst on the other they now know the mood music has changed and they want to show they can be something more helpful. So I think they will want to do something, if they can, and I'm positive they will be monitoring your situation closely.

 

I think that part of the issue for them is that it is not always easy to confront general incompetence and translate that into a prima facie breach of rules. They may feel that this is part of the problem they have to manage in your case (I'm speculating, obviously). They may need some help to get there. That, in its turn, is part of the problem that your representatives have to manage.  And it isn't easy to get right, or move along at the pace you might want. And it may not play itself out in public a lot of the time either, because of the very nature of it. 

 

I'm sorry if that last paragraph sounds a bit cryptic, but I guess what I'm saying is that when you are talking about problems that involve confronting and / or changing poor behaviour, some of it has to happen in private, at least initially. 

[League one forever]

13 hours ago, deyres42 said:

With all respect there isn't really a crisis. As long as we are meeting financial obligations and fulfilling fixtures then there isn't a whole lot they can do.

 

4 hours ago, Dave_Og said:

Before slating the EFL best to read their rules and their role. They aren't there to tell people how to run thir businesses. 

Aye, both fair points. 

 

We may not like them, but if AL keeps paying the bills there is very little any of us can do. Least of all - the EFL. 
 

 

[Pidge]

The EFL have no system to make sure their own rules are being adhered to.

They really need to have a system to assess clubs.

 

The NHS has the CQC. They have teams who used go out and assess hospitals, nursing homes and GP practices. The EFL need to adopt a similar system. A team consisting of admin, fan representative, football and medical experience, would go out to see the club and ask staff and fans their experience.  Look at leadership, finances, personnel and facilities offered to fans and staff.

 

The end result is a report with grading and special measures attached to the worst reports, including suspension.

[basilrobbie]

1 hour ago, Pidge said:

The EFL have no system to make sure their own rules are being adhered to.

They really need to have a system to assess clubs.

 

The NHS has the CQC. They have teams who used go out and assess hospitals, nursing homes and GP practices. The EFL need to adopt a similar system. A team consisting of admin, fan representative, football and medical experience, would go out to see the club and ask staff and fans their experience.  Look at leadership, finances, personnel and facilities offered to fans and staff.

 

The end result is a report with grading and special measures attached to the worst reports, including suspension.

 

Pidge, you may want to look at Chapter 4 of the FSA's evidence to Tracey Crouch. As one of the proud co-authors of it, I'm pleased to say that all of what you set out above is covered there. In fact it goes further, arguing for a Parliamentary  Ombudsman  type role that , in addition to audit and inspection work would also identify and promote best practice, make recommendations on key areas of policy (like the role of the Leagues and TV revenue distribution) and set-piece "state of the world" type annual reporting (probably to Parliament). 

[BP1960]

1 hour ago, Pidge said:

The EFL have no system to make sure their own rules are being adhered to.

They really need to have a system to assess clubs.

 

The NHS has the CQC. They have teams who used go out and assess hospitals, nursing homes and GP practices. The EFL need to adopt a similar system. A team consisting of admin, fan representative, football and medical experience, would go out to see the club and ask staff and fans their experience.  Look at leadership, finances, personnel and facilities offered to fans and staff.

 

The end result is a report with grading and special measures attached to the worst reports, including suspension.

 

As far as I can see the  EFL doesn't require Sporting Directors to have a licence to operate like managers and coaches.

This seems crazy to me when you have people like Mo calling the shots without such high qualifications.

[Pidge]

35 minutes ago, basilrobbie said:

 

Pidge, you may want to look at Chapter 4 of the FSA's evidence to Tracey Crouch. As one of the proud co-authors of it, I'm pleased to say that all of what you set out above is covered there. In fact it goes further, arguing for a Parliamentary  Ombudsman  type role that , in addition to audit and inspection work would also identify and promote best practice, make recommendations on key areas of policy (like the role of the Leagues and TV revenue distribution) and set-piece "state of the world" type annual reporting (probably to Parliament). 

Thanks Basil. I have just had read chapter 4.  It is all good stuff and dovetails with my CQC type model for the inspection part of the chapter. As you say, the ideas in chapter 4 are more complete for a revamp of the game.

The CGC inspections provide an immediate rank from “excellent” through “good” and “needs improvement” to “inadequate”. It is backed up but a public report and the requirement to publish this on the website and visibly at the premises.

 

You would be surprised how quickly the clubs would improve things if their dirty linen was exposed.  It would take a short time to train the inspection teams, but the effect of their report would be immediate. Our Owner would have to stop lying.

 

Also it provides a blue print of what is expected. We have suffered from new owners at the same time as staff new to football. They actually have no clue of what is expected!

[BP1960]

1 hour ago, Pidge said:

Thanks Basil. I have just had read chapter 4.  It is all good stuff and dovetails with my CQC type model for the inspection part of the chapter. As you say, the ideas in chapter 4 are more complete for a revamp of the game.

The CGC inspections provide an immediate rank from “excellent” through “good” and “needs improvement” to “inadequate”. It is backed up but a public report and the requirement to publish this on the website and visibly at the premises.

 

You would be surprised how quickly the clubs would improve things if their dirty linen was exposed.  It would take a short time to train the inspection teams, but the effect of their report would be immediate. Our Owner would have to stop lying.

 

Also it provides a blue print of what is expected. We have suffered from new owners at the same time as staff new to football. They actually have no clue of what is expected!

 

Star ratings for clubs like hygiene standards food for outlets you mean.

How many would Latics  get?

[Chaddyexile84]

14 minutes ago, BP1960 said:

 

Star ratings for clubs like hygiene standards food for outlets you mean.

How many would Latics  get?

Minus 5

[Bristolatic]

29 minutes ago, Chaddyexile84 said:

Minus 5

Very generous.

[Andy b]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:55 AM, deyres42 said:

With all respect there isn't really a crisis. As long as we are meeting financial obligations and fulfilling fixtures then there isn't a whole lot they can do.

Someone has to be bottom of the league. 

[Dave_Og]

Changes to EFL rules aren't down to the EFL. It is down to the member clubs who would have to vote for/approve changes. There's no appetite for such steps that I've ever heard of, presumably because it would cost money and we know that clubs won't be attempting to change things that will cost them

 

[basilrobbie]

3 hours ago, Dave_Og said:

Changes to EFL rules aren't down to the EFL. It is down to the member clubs who would have to vote for/approve changes. There's no appetite for such steps that I've ever heard of, presumably because it would cost money and we know that clubs won't be attempting to change things that will cost them

 

 

That's an overly charitable view of the EFL management, if you don't mind me saying so. You are right that the current system is run by owners for the benefit of owners. But it doesn't have to be like that, and the EFL has made  very little effort in recent times to change the system. I think  it is also fair to say that the concept of representing the wishes of supporters is an afterthought at best ; when we took a complaint to the Football Ombudsman  (an EFL creation), we were told that as fans we were not participants in the sport, for the purposes of regulations, and therefore had no standing.  The culture of the organisation is entirely inappropriate, even now.

 

For the time being, they are what we are stuck with, however. Ironically, as they seek to show there is a point to their existence, you may find that they are more likely to be pro-active now than they ever have been. See Derby, for instance (even if they are merely making a pro-active balls of  that one as well).

 

 

 

[Dave_Og]

9 hours ago, basilrobbie said:

 

That's an overly charitable view of the EFL management, if you don't mind me saying so. You are right that the current system is run by owners for the benefit of owners. But it doesn't have to be like that, and the EFL has made  very little effort in recent times to change the system. I think  it is also fair to say that the concept of representing the wishes of supporters is an afterthought at best ; when we took a complaint to the Football Ombudsman  (an EFL creation), we were told that as fans we were not participants in the sport, for the purposes of regulations, and therefore had no standing.  The culture of the organisation is entirely inappropriate, even now.

 

For the time being, they are what we are stuck with, however. Ironically, as they seek to show there is a point to their existence, you may find that they are more likely to be pro-active now than they ever have been. See Derby, for instance (even if they are merely making a pro-active balls of  that one as well).

 

 

 

I'm sure you are right and I'm sure you know the subject better than me. But if there had been any impetus for change from the clubs then I'm sure there would have been change. Presumably I'm right that any change will cost the clubs money? And there's the problem. There is pretty much zero sense of altruism and the greater good from owners and that has only been exacerbated as money had more and more been the route to success. 

[the_mighty_bosh]

18 hours ago, Andy b said:

Someone has to be bottom of the league. 

 

I mean I'm fairly sure that's not a Barry quote, but I can't be too certain.

[basilrobbie]

1 hour ago, Dave_Og said:

I'm sure you are right and I'm sure you know the subject better than me. But if there had been any impetus for change from the clubs then I'm sure there would have been change. Presumably I'm right that any change will cost the clubs money? And there's the problem. There is pretty much zero sense of altruism and the greater good from owners and that has only been exacerbated as money had more and more been the route to success. 

 

I don't think any of this is incorrect Dave. In fact, you are pretty much bang on. The club owners are very happy with the current system because they aren't challenged properly - I think that is more important to them  than the costs of regulation, although if the EFL keep losing cases after racking up big legal costs that might change. 

 

I think the point I was making - not very well - is that being inert and unchallenging in this area has suited the EFL very well over a period of years. Had we not had Project Big Picture and the outrage caused by the ESL, they would have been continuing along that road even now.

[BP1960]

4 hours ago, basilrobbie said:

 

I don't think any of this is incorrect Dave. In fact, you are pretty much bang on. The club owners are very happy with the current system because they aren't challenged properly - I think that is more important to them  than the costs of regulation, although if the EFL keep losing cases after racking up big legal costs that might change. 

 

I think the point I was making - not very well - is that being inert and unchallenging in this area has suited the EFL very well over a period of years. Had we not had Project Big Picture and the outrage caused by the ESL, they would have been continuing along that road even now.

 

Maybe time for club owners to pass an accredited course in how to run a club before being allowed to do so, with a licence to operate similar to a UEFA badge?

As it stands they are basically amateurs trying to operate a professional outfit.

@Dave_Og may have some thoughts on this as he comes across as very knowledgeable in this subject, wheras I'm just a football watcher?

[C.O.JONES]

Just now, BP1960 said:

 

Maybe time for club owners to pass an accredited course in how to run a club before being allowed to do so, with a licence to operate similar to a UEFA badge.

As it stands they are basically amateurs trying to operate a professional outfit.

 

Run a club, give me strength, they couldn't run a bath!