Jump to content

Neil Warnocks/Colins Book


Recommended Posts

Not sure when I mentined JW Lees. They had no representative on the board after Harry Wilde left/resigned/was booted off. Stott was chairman after Wilde and he was followed by Brierley, neither of whom worked for the brewery.

 

Stott didn't own the club though...JWLees did! Stott was the puppet on a string who was managing his own escape through getting himself on the FA board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is making me sound like Stott's lickspittle which was never my intention.

 

I do feel that directors get a lot of unjustified stick, when things go wrong at a club they are brought to task and when things go well it is in spite of them rather than due to them. I don't understand what fans expect of them.

 

The problems with Latics demise were multitudinous, JWL owning the club, refusing to sell and refusing to engage, was undoubtedly a huge factor. I also believe that the apathetic Oldham public also played a huge contributing factor. In the third year in the top flight crowds were dropping off to around the 9k mark - a figure we probably need to attract now to be sustainable and one that just isn't going to happen. If we can't attract that many people to watch top flight football what chance have we of attracting them to watch third tier football? And just as it isn't the currecnt incumbants fault, neither was it Stott and co's fault. No matter who owns the club, who manages the club and who plays for the club we are always going to be small fry struggling to make ends meet. We will have a few promotions here and there and a similar number of relegations, a few cup runs here and there, those are the joys of supporting your local team, rather than a corporate monolith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is making me sound like Stott's lickspittle which was never my intention.

 

I do feel that directors get a lot of unjustified stick, when things go wrong at a club they are brought to task and when things go well it is in spite of them rather than due to them. I don't understand what fans expect of them.

 

The problems with Latics demise were multitudinous, JWL owning the club, refusing to sell and refusing to engage, was undoubtedly a huge factor. I also believe that the apathetic Oldham public also played a huge contributing factor. In the third year in the top flight crowds were dropping off to around the 9k mark - a figure we probably need to attract now to be sustainable and one that just isn't going to happen. If we can't attract that many people to watch top flight football what chance have we of attracting them to watch third tier football? And just as it isn't the currecnt incumbants fault, neither was it Stott and co's fault. No matter who owns the club, who manages the club and who plays for the club we are always going to be small fry struggling to make ends meet. We will have a few promotions here and there and a similar number of relegations, a few cup runs here and there, those are the joys of supporting your local team, rather than a corporate monolith.

 

I get what you're saying on some of that. As I say, rather than blaming Stott, he was simply a jellyfish yes-man. One of a string of them, nodding and agreeing with anything JWLees wanted to do. Agree about the apathetic support from the town. However, TTA have pretty much resigned themselves to that now and so the plan they came with originally is our only chance of survival. If we don't get the new stadium, we'll be a goner! And thus, this plan TTA have, JWLees could've implemented if they were serious and cared about the clubs future and wanted this club to continue being a success (and at the same time, lining their pockets.) They run a brewery, they're expanding it all the time. Why not the club? Coz when we got to the top they didn't want to put any money in, to make more money. Just take, take, take.

 

There's no reason to think why our small club couldn't be a Fulham or a W***y Wanderers. They've only ever had small support, ok, it's grown now they're in the Premiership but they've both built up their grounds and Bolton especially, have done it through the extra revenue streams they've gained rather than splashing millions. Had we planned for this when the Premiership came about, who knows where we'd be now....but JWLees never intended that. They're the main reason.....back in the 70's there were letters about apathetic Oldhamers not following their club. It wasn't new news to JWL. Oh well.

Edited by boundaryblue80
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get what you're saying on some of that. As I say, rather than blaming Stott, he was simply a jellyfish yes-man. One of a string of them, nodding and agreeing with anything JWLees wanted to do. Agree about the apathetic support from the town. However, TTA have pretty much resigned themselves to that now and so the plan they came with originally is our only chance of survival. If we don't get the new stadium, we'll be a goner! And thus, this plan TTA have, JWLees could've implemented if they were serious and cared about the clubs future and wanted this club to continue being a success (and at the same time, lining their pockets.) They run a brewery, they're expanding it all the time. Why not the club? Coz when we got to the top they didn't want to put any money in, to make more money. Just take, take, take.

 

There's no reason to think why our small club couldn't be a Fulham or a W***y Wanderers. They've only ever had small support, ok, it's grown now they're in the Premiership but they've both built up their grounds and Bolton especially, have done it through the extra revenue streams they've gained rather than splashing millions. Had we planned for this when the Premiership came about, who knows where we'd be now....but JWLees never intended that. They're the main reason.....back in the 70's there were letters about apathetic Oldhamers not following their club. It wasn't new news to JWL. Oh well.

Is there any evidence that JWL took the profits? I'm not suggesting they didn't, I'm just interested if there are any figures.

I don't believe Stott was a yes man pandering to what JWL wanted. I don't think JWL wanted anything, they just allowed the club to stagnate and take what little profits from the bars they could, where as if they'd invested a small amount in upgrading the bars they would have seen these profits increase. I agree they just didn't give a monkeys one way or the other.

I agree with the proposed new stadium 100% (something Stott and co recognised was required) but the club could be scuppered again by the local populace.

Could we really be a Fulham or Bolton? Possibly I suppose and there has to be ambition to achieve this, but Fulham are located in fancy London where the catchment potential could not be more different than we have and Bolton for whatever reason (probably history) seem able to attract bigger crowds. I suppose the real aspiration should be Wigan, but Christ on a bike I could never have that as my goal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there any evidence that JWL took the profits? I'm not suggesting they didn't, I'm just interested if there are any figures.

I don't believe Stott was a yes man pandering to what JWL wanted. I don't think JWL wanted anything, they just allowed the club to stagnate and take what little profits from the bars they could, where as if they'd invested a small amount in upgrading the bars they would have seen these profits increase. I agree they just didn't give a monkeys one way or the other.

I agree with the proposed new stadium 100% (something Stott and co recognised was required) but the club could be scuppered again by the local populace.

Could we really be a Fulham or Bolton? Possibly I suppose and there has to be ambition to achieve this, but Fulham are located in fancy London where the catchment potential could not be more different than we have and Bolton for whatever reason (probably history) seem able to attract bigger crowds. I suppose the real aspiration should be Wigan, but Christ on a bike I could never have that as my goal.

 

Lol, nah, not Wigan...club with no history and built on dodgy foundations by a man who claims to always have loved Wigan but went to buy the Red Scummers first, but failed. Suppose you could say that about TTA and them trying to buy Hull but at least they've never claimed to always have loved Oldham...just that they do now...thank god!

 

As for Fulham as a comparison, they're in the shadows or Chelski and many other north London clubs. I'd suggest there's a lot of similarities in the number of supporters Fulham could attract, to us. I'd imagine for every 1 Cottager (ooooerrr!) there's 10 Chelski there!

 

Regarding JWL's and "any evidence that JWL took the profits?" I'd say 2 relegations in a handful of years is. But fans with older memories than mine will tell of key players being sold from the club. And Sharp literally was given peanuts. Infact, I'm sure it was written in his book what Stott was dictating to him, what JWLees had laid down. There was a piece in the Chron recently about Sharps book documenting this. Also, I know that STR had what little financial info there was out there to be got. At that time, it was very grim....being 17yrs old at the time, I came along at the back end of what STR were doing. So didn't see such info, just got the gist of the picture but it's pretty well known they were on the take. As I say, the evidence speaks for itself by where we are now. And Royle often talks about how he went cap in hand in the final months of our top flight stay, but got refused the money that could've changed our whole future. There's a long list of negligence I'm afraid.

Edited by boundaryblue80
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol, nah, not Wigan...club with no history and built on dodgy foundations by a man who claims to always have loved Wigan but went to buy the Red Scummers first, but failed. Suppose you could say that about TTA and them trying to buy Hull but at least they've never claimed to always have loved Oldham...just that they do now...thank god!

 

As for Fulham as a comparison, they're in the shadows or Chelski and many other north London clubs. I'd suggest there's a lot of similarities in the number of supporters Fulham could attract, to us. I'd imagine for every 1 Cottager (ooooerrr!) there's 10 Chelski there!

 

Regarding JWL's and "any evidence that JWL took the profits?" I'd say 2 relegations in a handful of years is. But fans with older memories than mine will tell of key players being sold from the club. And Sharp literally was given peanuts. Infact, I'm sure it was written in his book what Stott was dictating to him, what JWLees had laid down. There was a piece in the Chron recently about Sharps book documenting this. Also, I know that STR had what little financial info there was out there to be got. At that time, it was very grim....being 17yrs old at the time, I came along at the back end of what STR were doing. So didn't see such info, just got the gist of the picture but it's pretty well known they were on the take. As I say, the evidence speaks for itself by where we are now. And Royle often talks about how he went cap in hand in the final months of our top flight stay, but got refused the money that could've changed our whole future. There's a long list of negligence I'm afraid.

My point about Fulham was more to do with the amount of nuetrals they could attract by virtue of the number of people who move to London from outside and fancy going to a game. We don't have that in Oldham, or if we do I'm unaware of it. I also remember a petition to save Fulham attracting 50,000 signatories and all sorts of Fancy Dans signing it.

 

My memory of the time is that there was only one season where we made any profit and that was in the 'Pinch Me' season. We were a little unlucky in that our success was a couple of years early in terms of the huge money handed out to the top clubs. In the subsequent years ground redevelopment and player wheeler dealing accounted for any surplus money. Of course this in no way excuses JWLs lack of investment and their refusal to sell the shares - I seem to remember a couple of thwarted bids by Stott to buy the shares, on one occasion he stated that he wanted to buy them and hand them over to Junior Latics so the future of the club was in the hands of its future supporters. How sincere he was we will never know.

 

Looking back to those times I was so completely carried away by the 'success' at an age when life was so sweet I was oblivious to most of the politics that surrounded it all. I was 19/20 in the 'Pinch Me' season and my Saturdays consisted of getting up hungover, going to the Abbey Inn, meeting a crowd of mates to go to the game, watch Latics win handsomely and in style, back home for a spruce up, back up town end up in Butterflies and try and convince some young lass that a stall on Tommyfield was the ideal location to have it off with me. Time has made these memories even sweeter, Butterflies has gone and I rarely get to have it off, Tommyfield is a shadow of its former self and Latics rarely win handsomely in style, so when there are attempts to besmirch these memories I automatically switch to defence.

 

I'm sure given a second chance things would be done massively different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JWLees ..... run a brewery, they're expanding it all the time. Why not the club? Coz when we got to the top they didn't want to put any money in, to make more money. Just take, take, take.

 

It was that "take, take, take" that became unbearable for the fans.

 

J.W. Lees had no interest in football. Once the Brewery gained ownership of the Boundary Club (Clayton Arms) it meant it had a cash cow. The premises have been a gold mine for the Brewery, generating income from old folk's tea dances, wedding receptions and private parties, antique fairs, record fairs, seminars, meetings all the year round, plus income from Latics' fans on match days. The Sports Hall was also a good source of income, with it being used all year round including during matches at BP.

 

To say it was short-sighted of the Club to relinquish ownership of the Boundary Club must be an understatement of gigantic prportions. if the Club had retained that asset, who knows how far onwards and upwards Latics may have gone. We'll never know.

 

I stumbled across an old edition of 'The Latic Fanatic' on the link - it includes 'Stop The Rot' news, and will give readers a sense of the frustrations at the lack of investment by the Brewery felt by fans at the time.

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/4377/vol3-10.html

Edited by Diego_Sideburns
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looking back to those times I was so completely carried away by the 'success' at an age when life was so sweet I was oblivious to most of the politics that surrounded it all. I was 19/20 in the 'Pinch Me' season and my Saturdays consisted of getting up hungover, going to the Abbey Inn, meeting a crowd of mates to go to the game, watch Latics win handsomely and in style, back home for a spruce up, back up town end up in Butterflies and try and convince some young lass that a stall on Tommyfield was the ideal location to have it off with me. Time has made these memories even sweeter, Butterflies has gone and I rarely get to have it off, Tommyfield is a shadow of its former self and Latics rarely win handsomely in style, so when there are attempts to besmirch these memories I automatically switch to defence.

 

I'm sure given a second chance things would be done massively different.

 

Well, two things to say to the above.....

 

1) Good on you....sounds like you made the most of it and

 

2) Lucky b******! :wink: When your first game at BP was in the 1994/95 season (saw a handful of games in years before them, but not at BP) and you've been a home and awayer since 1997....you look back at what you've missed with a tinge of sadness and feel you were born just a little too late in life. Also, you look at why our once-great club has got to where it has and feel a lot of anger towards the culprits who IMO have been extremely negligent in our slide. Which is why for me, TTA are so important and could be the owners to return us to something near them days. One hopes....they've got all the hope and ambition for it....just wish the pieces would fall into place for them and us! One day maybe!

Edited by boundaryblue80
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest oa_exile

I am not defending JWL but when will some people realise that the club has been run on boarderline profit or at a loss.

The income from gate reciepts has never and will never be enough to keep the club afloat.

 

Look at the average attendances throughout the history of the club and tell me that we must have made a profit.

 

The club has survived over the years on transfers to balance the books ,it has and always will.

 

JWL took over the club when it was in trouble , M***e took over the club when it was in trouble ,TTA took over the club when it was in trouble.

 

JWL have taken the brunt of the blame because they failed to invest when we got relegated............. so Ken Bates and M***e , surely they did far worse ??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JWL have taken the brunt of the blame because they failed to invest when we got relegated............. so Ken Bates and M***e , surely they did far worse ??

 

Failing to invest and showing complete disregard for our future are two different things IMO. David Brierley and co couldn't invest much into us once they took over, but they had hoped to keep us going without ever asking for a penny back and that they would end up passing the club onto to someone (M****) who would lay out a successful plan for our future. JWLees never had a plan....they just got lucky, it really is as simple as that, that Royle (for want of a phrase) turned water into wine. Royle had very little investment from JWL and when he went cap in hand for it, to keep us up (whether it would've worked or not) he was told no. Complete negligence. And as mentioned, yes, we doing operate under the poverty line in football terms, hence my points about concentrating on other revenue streams, ground improvements etc. TTA have seen this is the only way forward and Brierley wanted this through Sports Park 2000 etc. But JWLees....nah....they never had a plan, as they were never interested in our future. Just to milk it where they could, when there was actually money in us from parachute payments and sold players etc. Instead...off with the bags of money they went.

Edited by boundaryblue80
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even you call him Colin...as in...Colin W***er....why?

 

Of course he was a yes man...he had ample opportunity to join Stop The Rot or even from his position, to turn fans heavily against the board. No fans, no club.....it would've forced the club into either keeping him and backing him, or selling the club and leaving. To be honest, we've only got his word that he wanted a contract and thought he was going to get one. I never once believe he wanted to stay.

 

As for comparing Moore and Warnock, I'd love to see Warnock try and do for a club what Moore did at Rotherham with the resources he had there. Makes me laugh when people claim Moore played so much "boring" football....blinded by bu****** that it was all long ball and when it was, players last season even admitted it wasn't under Moore's instructions, it was coz we had players "not good enough" (that's a quote from Wellens) clearly indicating Branston and his hoofs coz he was dire....could name numerous games where we destoryed teams and not a hoof in sight...Bradford away for one.... Plafalse memories engrained forever in the haters! Oh and if winning is boring, then something is wrong with you!

 

That Bradford games was class.

Branston was gash.

Ronnie brought in a number of the players "not good enough". He also brought in the few that nearly secured us promotion last season, Wellens, Liddell, Porter etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can I point a few things out here....

 

First of all, JWLees didn't sell the club to Chris M****....they sold it to David Brierley and friends for (I think) either a penny or a pound. Second of all, from the mouths of workers at JWLees, the only care they took at times was asking the workers on a Monday morning how we'd done at the weekend. Finally, as said, all the money from top flight status, cup runs, parachute payments etc. all pocketed by JWLees, nothing fed back into the club. How people are so blind to defend them, is beyond me....they've raped and pillaged our football club and left it for dead. They're no different to Chris M**** in any way at all....everyone knows Royle did what he did on absolutely nothing....no thanks to JWLees at all so let's not be blinded with your list of what we acheived....it certainly wasn't thanks to JWL!!!

To be quite honest, there is no factual proof in that Ross!

 

And i have had a PM of a member who has had direct links with the club for over 30 years and has asked me to step in, as much as i enjoy a good debate can everyone be careful as to what is written when concerning certain internal goings on at our club, as we would like to keep anyone from being sued due to libellous and could put owtb at risk if this is read by anyone of importance at the brewery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be quite honest, there is no factual proof in that Ross!

 

And i have had a PM of a member who has had direct links with the club for over 30 years and has asked me to step in, as much as i enjoy a good debate can everyone be careful as to what is written when concerning certain internal goings on at our club, as we would like to keep anyone from being sued due to libellous and could put owtb at risk if this is read by anyone of importance at the brewery.

 

Ah...the old IMO was missed out.....just for prosperity, I'll go back and edit the comment so it says IMO. I can express that from an onlooker, that in my opinion, that is what they have done. Seems it's touched a nerve with someone anyway for them to contact you Beardy. Interesting :grin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I nipped into town at dinner and popped into WhSmith as there's not alot else to do in Rochdale. I noticed Colin's book on the shelf so had a gander in the index for the bits about Latics. Not alot in a pretty heavy book. 4 pages or so.

 

The first part is when he was manager of Notts County and he mentions that something was said by some West Ham about how they are just in the back and here for the party, or words to that effect. He says it really riled him and before the game he laid into his players and demanded not to end the season with an anti climax and a whimper.

 

It worked and he goes on to mention how the entire ground is celebrating as the news that Wednesday are 2-1 up at Boundary Park and 'the title is won'. There's a big gasp as Oldham equalises before the ground once again erupts as all of Upton Park thinks the game at BP is over with word going round that the final whistle had indeed gone. Warnock congratulates the manager and gives a cheeky consolation about losing that day. Then he tells of the horror that was Upton Park as the ground became distraught at the shock news that the whistle had been for a penalty to Latics, it had been scored. The final whistle had gone and Oldham won the league. :grin::lol: He said it was purely because of him that we won the league and that he's told Big Joe many times in the past that it's all because of him and that no other team bar his Notts County would have been West Ham at Upton Park that day. (having seen wednesday against us that very day, i'm pretty sure they would have)

 

In the next part. He mentions that he didnt have a good time at Oldham. He got on very well with Hardy and Alan had told him he would be getting an extended contract. He says it was the final game of the season away at Grimsby where he realised that wasnt to be true. He says how Jepson scored and he looked at our fans in his words 'going mental' and then to the directors box and not one of them cheered - one infact had his head in his hands. He then told his wife that he figured he wasnt going to be offered a contract.

 

He also mentioned about getting relegated saying it wasnt his fault. That we were already doomed by the time he'd arrived and no one could of saved up from the drop.

its a wonder the shop assistant didnt say to you, ARE YOU JUST READING THAT BOOK OR BUYING A COPY. LOL.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, two things to say to the above.....

 

Also, you look at why our once-great club has got to where it has and feel a lot of anger towards the culprits who IMO have been extremely negligent in our slide.

Although i kind of admire your optimism and loyalty Ross, I think if you look back at the history of our club, though you seem to know most of it anyway!! you will find that the particular period of our success, or late 80's/early 90's was a very 'out of the ordinary' one for a club of our size and financial standing.

We have spent many pre Royle days languishing in the bottom 2 divisions of the football ladder and whilst there has obviously (pre tta) been a distinct lack of real investment at the club, i don't think really we can blame a medium sized local brewery for the 'demise???!?!?' of a succesfull Oldham Athletic. Before their sponsorship, we were certainly lacking anything like the funds they have invested over the years.

As for a "claim" that Moores and Warnocks football was boring.........from my point of view, this is no claim...this was fact!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest oa_exile
....everyone knows Royle did what he did on absolutely nothing....

 

:blink: Erhhhh , think you need to re think that BB ................ so incorrect

 

Suggest you have a look at Joe's signings.Yes at the beginning "he did on absolutely nothing" but when he did have the money........ :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:blink: Erhhhh , think you need to re think that BB ................ so incorrect

 

Suggest you have a look at Joe's signings.Yes at the beginning "he did on absolutely nothing" but when he did have the money........ :(

 

 

A lot of Royle's signings in the late 80's were due to a club director Norman Holden funding the deals. Transfers such as Tommy Wright £85k, Kevin Moore £150K, Rick Holden £165K, Neil Adams £100k and others all supposedly paid for by Holden on the premise that any sell on profit would be split 50/50 between him (Norman Holden) and the club. That's from the horse's mouth in Royle's autobiography. We even had a deal to sign David Batty in place in November 1988, but Howard Wilkinson who had just taken over the managerial hot-seat at Elland Road blocked the deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...