piglinbland

I really don't care if he accepts his award or not . That said, his gesture is anything but pathetic and weak-

"I am British, I was born here and my children were born here. There is no argument to be had about my patriotism. But the empire is something that oppressed black people." Sounds reasonable to me.

The sign of a good, battling league 1 side is when the opposition message boards slate you as being :censored:.

How many times have we heard - "...you didn't play like a team in a relegation dogfight. Anyway, good luck for the rest of the season and hope you stay up." ?

Hopefully, from now on we'll hear - "..How the :censored: Oldham are in the top six is beyond me..."

It's a complicated thing but I think the crux of the matter is that we should be happy to live in a society where we CAN refuse an honour.

A bit like performance art, Tracy Emin, Wendy O. Williams and assorted people taking a dump on the floor. Not necessarily my cup of tea (sic) but happy that it exists.

Remember Gayle well because I lived behind Ewood Park when he played for 'Bastard' Rovers. A bloody good player for them too.

I admire people who turn down their honours - although I do intend to accept my OBE (when it comes).

 

 

 

It's a way of walking that people are proud of in those parts.

 

How do I know this but you don't?

 

http://brockley.blogspot.co.uk/2007/06/where-is-sarf-london.html

 

"As for Bermondsey alot of my pals live there and they do have that air of being nothing but Bermonsey ,the pub down there called The Blue Anchor lends it's name to much of the area just known as the Blue ,they are a different breed they even have a name for the way they walk called The Bermondsey Bowl ."

Is it similar to the Lambeth Walk?

Strictly speaking, it is.

But interpretation is all. For example, is the "exporter" the buyer, the seller or the shipper?

It's funny how touchy people get when called "left wing" but have no problem using the term "right wing".....just an observation.

 

Now I don't profess to have your connections but I do know through my dealings with several exporting companies in the Federation of Small Businesses that the concensus within this small group is the amount of EU regulatory, one size fits all red tape which they consider pointless and unnecessary.

 

A question, why did you not take this level headed approach earlier in this debate instead of your "Doomsday, End of the world is nigh" stance which some of us had you standing shoulder to shoulder with Cameron and Osborn?

Maybe you haven't followed this thread from the start? Because I put it all in there on several occasions - low-volume international trade from E.O.R.I. to the Rotterdam effect.

The bottom line is that (from my own observations and at risk of repeating myself) goods are purchased and shipped for, ideally, maximum return and minimum fuss. The recipe for doing so relies on flexible interpretation of the rules and establishing good (and longstanding, if possible) business relationships with all concerned, particularly customs offices and shipping brokers, who, over time, will come to understand your requirements.

Any product (within legal reason) can transit between the EU and Britain freely and without control, provided provenance can be supplied, obviously, in the form of receipts. Furthermore, goods can be (and frequently are) imported to Britain from outside the EU and then moved on to mainland of Europe, thus waiving EU import duties that should normally be applied - because Britain decides not to impose them. Britain can also export via all EU points of departure to the rest of the world and not pay a penny in tax and duty to the EU. Add to this that some UK businesses export successfully from the UK to the rest of the world without even being aware of some of the prerequisite formalities such is the level of rule bending! Since custom and excise regulations are the only EU directives that are not individually tailor- made for each and every member state, yet are so open to 'interpretation', I have always found it hard to believe the 'standardisation' argument.

Or, in other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

PiginBland

 

1) In recent years, Britain has voiced its opinions and lost out to heavily majority voting on motions it has tabled. So why make the assumption that just because we would have had the presidency, all these countries that previously voted against us would all cross over to our side.

2) 3 months, 1 year, 5 years.....you can't put a cost against it. Until David Davis gets his team of 200 negotiators together to commence Brexit, we are still in the same position pre-Brexit. To say will be "crippilingly expensive" is guesswork and scaremongering, but it is your opinion. Having said that, I think your opinions are based more in the political world than that of the commercial.

3) Why would there be fighting again, that's what NATO is for. But you can't legislate for historical grievances such as those in the Balkans (which are still simmering) and dare I say it, Greece and Germany.

4) Even without the Brexit Referendum, do you really think Sturgeon would have stopped any future discussions of a further Scottish referendum? All Brexit has done has accelerated the process. But if Scotland does breakaway, England and Wales will be financially richer for it, but poorer in other ways. N.I. is a different matter, since the peace process came about. I have no idea of the demographics of loyalists and republicans then and now.

You're wrong, my opinions stem from my own experience of spending more half my 50 plus years working in conjunction with Europe - the last 10 spent organising the export of goods from the UK to the EU (and often from there on towards Asia, Australia and America). Doubtless, my beliefs seem to you to be (using that outdated and obsolete term) 'left wing', but they are in fact based on pragmatism and the simple precepts of communication and collaboration - prerequisite to international trade, be that negotiating prices with dealers or meeting with customs officials at London, Bremerhaven or Le Havre. And, of the multitude of officials and entreprenneurs I meet on a daily basis, I can assure you that the prevailing opinion is that Brexit is the biggest balls-up since Suez.

Now, since this debate has been on a purely rhetorical level for some while now, I'll state again that reality will likely play out somewhere in between the utopian dreams of the Brexiters and the armageddon portrayed by the remainers, (myself included, as I believe in the importance of worst-case scenario). We now need to realise that the 'purest' form of Brexit is impossible to achieve (ie. total control of frontiers AND single market) and that the likely compromise will be seen as a betrayal (although heralded as a triumph). Add to that my own experience - that Britain already freely interprets EU duty directives - particularly where China is involved - benefits from the free market AND transits from the UK to the rest of the world free of charge via the EU, and it's difficult to see how we could improve on that.

 

A nicely presented critique from mikeroyboy - Although I think that 53 pages on and 6 weeks after the referendum our views are as diametrically opposed - and entrenched - as they can be.

 

It's a bit much asking me to find a solution to the EU crisis although I have already on occasion suggested a plan - namely that Britain should have used her 2017 presidency to seriously and robustly strengthen her position in the EU (Never going to happen, we are and have been for many years a stand apart, financially stable nation not dependant on the EU. There was never a chance that would break up the triumvirate of Germany with France and Italy, not forgetting all the EU dependant states who would vote for the status quo, Cop out - how do you know if you don't try?) The cripplingly long and expensive (Fact or Fiction.....I'll go with the later because nobody knows yet but, with the greatest respect, I'll side with Mervyn King and his economic acumen before you) You are entitled to ypur opinion, but if it isn't going to be cripplingly expensive, it should be finished soon, right? Brexit process (if it ever goes ahead) will lead Britain to a place far behind where she would have been, free of charge, had she remained in the EU. I also believe that a majority of politicians from all sides of the political divide would privately agree with this (More Guesswork) Well, as you said, nobody knows yet - but it's my opinion.

 

On Europe - It's revealing that, as the scale of the Brexit deception became clear, the argument that Europe was sequestering 'our' money and power changed to an argument that Europe is crumbling and on the point of collapse. Nobody, however, has wished to answer my questions - If Brexit does indeed precipitate the beginning of the end for Europe, how can this possibly be something we can rejoice over? (There is no rejoicing about the potential collapse, Hmmmmmm just relief that we have had the foresight to jump ship and get the best lifeboat) How do you envisage the future of Europe without the EU? (if this is even possible). (Of course it's possible, these countries will start trading individually again). And possibly fighting again.

 

On Britain - I made a comment about Hinckley point the other day. It's indicative of our gullibility as a people in the face of giant media conglomerates that we have such a developed sense of patriotism (stimulated and nurtured all along the way, of course) when, ironically, we are about the least socially cohesive nation in Europe (I would argue the opposite as our record stands up to scrutiny far better than that of Germany and France both now and in the past). With ever widening gaps between the North and South, rich and poor, with Scotland and Northern Ireland rekindling their own independantist agenda I would say the union has never been more divided. In fact, I'd say we could crumble faster than the EU. . If the French and the Chinese provide the technology and funding to build a nuclear power station which in turn powers our ever-increasing appetite to subscribe to and spend money with multinationals that operate out of tax havens and pay little or no tax in Britain, how the hell can we even consider ourselves to be inside the car, let alone back in the driving seat? No wonder Murdoch wants to operate outside of the EU - what with it's wretched notions of transparency, equality and social justice.

 

A nicely presented critique from mikeroyboy - Although I think that 53 pages on and 6 weeks after the referendum our views are as diametrically opposed - and entrenched - as they can be.

It's a bit much asking me to find a solution to the EU crisis although I have already on occasion suggested a plan - namely that Britain should have used her 2017 presidency to seriously and robustly strengthen her position in the EU. The cripplingly long and expensive Brexit process (if it ever goes ahead) will lead Britain to a place far behind where she would have been, free of charge, had she remained in the EU. I also believe that a majority of politicians from all sides of the political divide would privately agree with this.

On Europe - It's revealing that, as the scale of the Brexit deception became clear, the argument that Europe was sequestering 'our' money and power changed to an argument that Europe is crumbling and on the point of collapse. Nobody, however, has wished to answer my questions - If Brexit does indeed precipitate the beginning of the end for Europe, how can this possibly be something we can rejoice over? How do you envisage the future of Europe without the EU? (if this is even possible).

On Britain - I made a comment about Hinckley point the other day. It's indicative of our gullibility as a people in the face of giant media conglomerates that we have such a developed sense of patriotism (stimulated and nurtured all along the way, of course) when, ironically, we are about the least socially cohesive nation in Europe. If the French and the Chinese provide the technology and funding to build a nuclear power station which in turn powers our ever-increasing appetite to subscribe to and spend money with multinationals that operate out of tax havens and pay little or no tax in Britain, how the hell can we even consider ourselves to be inside the car, let alone back in the driving seat? No wonder Murdoch wants to operate outside of the EU - what with it's wretched notions of transparency, equality and social justice.

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Anyway, now we're back in the driving seat it's good to see 'mother'Theresa scuppering Hinckley point and the French/Chinese connection.

Presumably we'll be now using British technology and British investment?

Piginbland

 

References to the IMF report from myself were made to highlight their complicity in Greece's financial meltdown. The report states there was undue pressure from the EU on the IMF to provide assistance before all necessary checks had taken place and if these checks had taken place, a different outcome may have been a real possibility.

 

My point was that the EU misled and pressured the IMF into wrongly providing assistance knowing full well Greece would be unable to meet its obligations and yet you stated in previous posts that because the EU and the IMF (in particular Lagarde) says "Brexit is wrong", we should take notice.

 

You stated, on more than one occasion, that Brexit is flawed yet you fail to acknowledge the parlous financial state of the EU as a whole and of the dire position of individual countries (Germany excepted). You give the impression that the EU left to its own devices, everything will be alright but offer no explanation of how it can turn things around. This is no more than blind faith, akin to head in the sand. I have far more confidence in Britain negotiating solely on behalf of itself to make this nation successful than the EU trying to satisfy the economies of 28 disparate states who all argue that their needs are more important than the other 27.

 

I am resolute in my opinion that the EU is slowly killing itself because it is an unsustainable financial model, continually spending more than it brings in. Made worse now, because the IMF will now scrutinise it's relationship with the EU ever more closely.

mikejh45 - apologies for my late reply!

I have in fact acknowledged the poor economic state of the EU and it's individual member states on more than one occasion.

I have never, to my knowledge stated that "because the EU and the IMF (in particular Lagarde) says "Brexit is wrong", we should take notice". I'm a certainly not a champion of this particular politician and my view of the EU is at best ambivalent. I occasionally post apposite articles of a theme that I generally agree with, nothing more.

I don't proclaim to be an expert on economics and can offer no solution to the EU woes.

However, I am and will remain vocally opposed to Brexit for the following reasons -

1/ The colossal financial cost of leaving the EU and setting up independent trade deals - within an uncertain timescale. A huge risk to take for at best, limited returns.

A shaky global economy, changing climate and massive over-population are causing geo-political shifts that require cohesion to counter.

Whatever one thinks of the EU, even in weakened form, it has the potential -vastness, richness and diversity to enable an effective pooling of resources.

2/ Britain. I believe we have a governing elite which is hell-bent on looking after it's own interests. This is true the world over but our own serves up a particularly nasty dish of lies and propaganda,

through an establishment backed media. I have no doubt that once out of the EU we would see increasingly abusive employment laws, human rights abuse and a further widening of the rich - poor divide.

This constant self-interest has been a crucial factor in our decline as an industrial power.

3/ The unquantifiable but nonetheless real intellectual decline that will follow in the wake of Brexit.

So here is the full report by the IEO -

http://www.ieo-imf.org/ieo/files/completedevaluations/EAC__REPORT%20v5.PDF

I fail to see how this damning indictment of the International Monetary Fund is relevant to Brexit and it's consequences, including the current impasse - which is what this discussion is about. Unless, of course, it's because Christine Lagarde is French.

I think there is a 'them and us' mentality creeping into the debate now. What is important to remember is that Britain's future economy and world standing are at stake - I've made plain my view that Brexit is dangerously flawed, hugely risky and almost certainly not in the average Britons self-interest. If the EU were to collapse, Britain would almost certainly be drawn into it's vortex - certainly not the brave new world promised by the Leavers. For this reason alone and for everyone's self-interest we will have to cooperate with the EU and vice-versa.

It's worth saying too, that the hyperbole surrounding the consequences for the UK of Brexit is indeed over-egged - but so too for the supposed toppling of the EU.

I feel reasonably sure you only thought it would be of interest to 'some' board members. It would also have needed to fit your viewpoint. Like the politicians you harp on about imminent hardship if we don't vote this way or that way. Unfortunately we have already voted.

 

History tells us every election is based on doom and zoom according to each party. If the party in power don't deliver the can be removed by the electorate. This as been the case since women got the vote in 1918{I think). The referendum is a major deviation from the norm. In effect it was between our Sovereignty and the unelected EU. We choose Sovereignty. I agree that there wasn't much zoom being rolled out but plenty of unknowable/exaggerated doom.

 

It is almost certain the EU will now look to reform a little, now the first horse has bolted there may be more. There is no sign of its economy improving and Brexit won't help nor will economic migration.

 

The EU has had its head in the sand for too long I hope to heaven they don't stick it down a mine shaft during negotiations. It could be up to 3yrs before it's sorted.

 

Meanwhile there are far more dangerous goings on around the globe that could be visiting an economy near you sooner than you think. Nothing is EVER straight forward in world affairs. No history of it whatsoever.

Only 3 years? It's generally accepted that fully extracting ourselves from the EU will take about 8 years.

 

 

Agreed, the extreme-right in Germany and France are absolutely toxic. But only in Britain are we casually and flippantly racist, anti-European, anti-diversity, anti-politically correct, anti-health and safety, anti-multicultural etc. etc. No different to most of Europe then.

We seem to have embraced a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon culture whereby the cult of personality takes precedence over substance. When the 'Daily Mail' reviewed the 2003 British film of sylvia Plath's life 'Sylvia', with the following words - ' who wants to watch a film about a depressive poet who commits suicide', I knew I was living within a society on the cusp of decadence. How right I was. One review in one newspaper does not make a cogent argument. Most countries in Europe have the equivalent of our ignorant red tops.

 

From my visits to France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc, amidst all the angst there is at least an understanding of the virtues of communitarianism - as there is in most of Central Europe (Russia excluded). Go to any major city in Europe that has a large percentage of immigrants and you will see a level of multi-culturalism no better than the worst of Britain.

 

In other words, in the interests of peace and stability, the referendum should never have happened. It did - and without the slightest shred of evidence that it was in our interests to do so, we voted out. Leaving the EU was the singularly most destructive and mind-bogglingly :censored:ed up thing we could ever, ever have done. But we did it. That Nigel Farage could just walk away from this, the toffee-nosed :censored:, beggars belief. You are still peddling the same crap you put forward for a couple of months before the referendum. As for Farage, what else is there for him to do, he was always a one trick pony and not a sitting MP and therefore was never going to be invited to the negotiations and he's hardly running away because he is still an MEP

 

Anyway, :censored: Europe, :censored: their Fords, :censored: their Hadron collider. :censored: Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, MAN, Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Lancia and Alfa-Romeo. :censored: Opel, Airbus, Allianz, Axa, Volkswagen, Total, Thompson, Veolia, Siemens etc, etc. Now are you are sounding bitter. As for Hadron, that has not and never has been anything to do with the EU.

 

Britain's small but very game firm (ie. Boris Johnson and 3 fitters from Aston Martin aided by a small but tidy mob from Thornton's chocolates ) will go toe to toe with you lot any day. But not straight away because Hayleys having her hair straightened on Thursday. I'll put this bit down as tongue in cheek.

 

You need to get over the vote going against your wishes as your bitterness is becoming somewhat embarrassing, akin to toys being thrown out of pram.

 

Nonsense.

"You are still peddling the same crap you put forward for a couple of months before the referendum" - Thanks for backhandedly crediting my consistency. If you look through my 'crap' you'll see that I forewarned about the legal and administrative difficulties of leaving, of EU intransigence and of this governments lack of foresight.

Now that Napoleon and Squealer's utopian vision of 'being in the driving seat' has disappeared in a puff of smoke, we're going to topple Europe instead. Amazing!

I think it's "realpolitik".

 

The bit that concerns me is the rise of the far right and our Brexit has not affected it within Germany and France because, I think, Hollande and Merkel have done a grand of stoking the fire in the bellies of the extremists with their insane policies. Fortunately in Britain, I don't think we have active far right extremists in large numbers except for maybe the Womens Institute.

Agreed, the extreme-right in Germany and France are absolutely toxic. But only in Britain are we casually and flippantly racist, anti-European, anti-diversity, anti-politically correct, anti-health and safety, anti-multicultural etc. etc.

We seem to have embraced a peculiarly Anglo-Saxon culture whereby the cult of personality takes precedence over substance. When the 'Daily Mail' reviewed the 2003 British film of sylvia Plath's life 'Sylvia', with the following words - ' who wants to watch a film about a depressive poet who commits suicide', I knew I was living within a society on the cusp of decadence. How right I was.

From my visits to France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc, amidst all the angst there is at least an understanding of the virtues of communitarianism - as there is in most of Central Europe (Russia excluded).

In other words, in the interests of peace and stability, the referendum should never have happened. It did - and without the slightest shred of evidence that it was in our interests to do so, we voted out. Leaving the EU was the singularly most destructive and mind-bogglingly :censored:ed up thing we could ever, ever have done. But we did it. That Nigel Farage could just walk away from this, the toffee-nosed :censored:, beggars belief.

Anyway, :censored: Europe, :censored: their Fords, :censored: their Hadron collider. :censored: Volvo, Saab, BMW, Mercedes, Fiat, MAN, Audi, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Lancia and Alfa-Romeo. :censored: Opel, Airbus, Allianz, Axa, Volkswagen, Total, Thompson, Veolia, Siemens etc, etc.

Britain's small but very game firm (ie. Boris Johnson and 3 fitters from Aston Martin aided by a small but tidy mob from Thornton's chocolates ) will go toe to toe with you lot any day. But not straight away because Hayleys having her hair straightened on Thursday.

“this 64 year old Savoyard is very under-estimated in French politics due to his distaste for small talk and his limited sense of humour.”

 

‘Under-estimated’ sounds as though you think more of him than they do. If, true it doesn’t say much for the credibility of French politics. You also make him sound a little like Teresa May, who was recently appointed Prime Minister. May, and her team though have a few weeks jump on him to be less ill prepared than he is.

 

Further, why on earth would ‘either’ side have been preparing for Brexit. Neither of them saw it coming. The usual b******t before a poll has now been ignored twice by the electorate within two years. The only real negative to the first surprise last year is the wipeout of the Liberals and the implosion of Labour. Not an ideal scenario for the future.

 

You appear to put a doomsday scenario on most things but not an unelected Federal inclined Commission gaining more and more power on an annual basis, unemployment at unparalleled levels in some Eurozone countries, and high in most Some Eurozone banks still in trouble (terrible second quarter results from Deutsche Bank today). Columns of unorganized refugees, many of them (and it could be most) economic, marching through Europe to a point of their choice.

Safety, jobs, financial stability and democracy of the EU within the Eurozone are being challenged daily. And you put forward a view that EU are putting up the big guns to sort out the United Kingdom. May god give me strength.

 

In my view Michel Barnier is there simply to negotiate the EU’s position. It would be quite naturally to choose someone competent. It may turn out ‘they’ get shot in the foot, there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge before getting too pedantic. Bullying and intransigence will have no place in the meetings over Brexit and I’m puzzled why you seem to be countenancing it. Are you on the EU over generous payroll and pension scheme by any chance? Germany may well be happy with a free trade agreement but maybe not many others unless Germany is persuasive.

 

At the end of the day we are on course to trade with who we like. Judge people how we like, while making our own rulings and attempt to control immigration more efficiently. For which the latter two the UK electorate have never been consulted on. And it will take civility, respect and negotiation to conclude.

With due respect, notice that I'm quoting from a European newspaper, hence the speech marks (and the acknowledgement to 'Liberation'). So it is pointless to address these quotes as if they came from me. I was merely posting from a publication that is probably fairly obscure in the UK and therefore, I thought, interesting to our board members.

My own view is, that while Brexit was a total sham bordering on the criminally insane, it's time to move on and leave Europe - as is the wish of the people.

I don't disagree with your points but to whose advantage would the fall of the EU be? Surely the more predatory, peripheral nations?

How do you imagine the geo-political stability of Europe (and with regard to Britain) should the EU dissolve?

The whole EU is a house of cards with Germany holding 3 aces and Britain the remaining one. Now we are proposing to withdraw our ace, the structure is looking very shaky!!!

I doubt that the withdrawal of Britain will seriously undermine the EU.

Sadly, however, we should expect a concerted terror campaign in France prior to the 2017 elections - aimed at splitting the population and precipitating the arrival of Marine Le Pen at the Elysée. If this happens, the days of the EU may well be numbered. This splitting of the union would be seen by the lunatic fundamentalists as an opening door to exploit their avowed aim of chaos and the destruction of all infidels - by the infiltration and picking off of countries one by one.

Mr Juncker is getting ahead of himself appointing a negotiating chief, Article 50 negotiations are in the remit of heads of government, not the Commission. Sort of underlines the sort of organisation it is.

Maybe so, but I can't see how anyone could have imagined it would pan out any other way. Kind of underlines the hardships that lie ahead.

Michel Barnier has been named by Jean-Claude Juncker as the EU's Brexit negotiator (according to 'Liberation').

'The Frenchman, ex- European commissioner for the interior market and financial services (2009 - 2014), bête-noir of the city of London and the English press, is hardly an Anglophile and barely speaks a word of English.'

'...an appointment to counter May's 'trio de choc' - Johnson, Davis and Fox - this 64 year old Savoyard is very under-estimated in French politics due to his distaste for small talk and his limited sense of humour. A staunch and tenacious supporter of Europe, his unprecedented shake-up of the financial institutions during his role as regulator required multiple approval from the British government - and he likes to tell that of 42 texts proposed, only 2 were rejected by the British.'

'For Barnier, there is no question of selling out the interests of the E.U.to please a country which has shot itself in the foot. From what we can gather, he believes there will be two successive negotiations - the first, within two years, the rupture between London and the EU and only then, Britain's new stature... Because she was so ill-prepared for Brexit, her gracious majesty's government is totally ill-equipped for and without clear ideas as to the handling of this retreat - notably concerning her own legislation and her international commerce'.

A few questions for those left sucking lemons.

 

(1) What does the Anglo-Saxon media have to gain from Brexit?

 

Quite a lot actually. They're mainly representative of the establishment and it's in their interests to have a tame public to exploit and spread the WASP message to.

 

(2) How is our little Island (5th largest economy in the world) being badly run?

 

It wasn't, up until now. 5th largest economy is, by the way, misleading in that endows us with superpower status. Remove The City and all the tertiary work and the picture is very different.

 

(3) Where would you see our economy being if we were well run?

 

Better than it is now?

 

(4) Why is unemployment so high in the Eurozone?

 

World recession, EU member states far too numerous, piss-poor governments within the EU and a piss-poor EU.

 

(5) What has the ‘objective, European press’ had to say about democracy within the European Parliament and unemployment in the Euro-zone?

 

Extremely critical. By the way, most of the European press is objective - it's called journalism.

 

(6) Do you think a European Parliament catering for 24 languages is sustainable?

 

Most certainly.

 

(7) Do you think it is sustainable for 24 Eurozone countries consisting of wildly differing cultures, economies and infrastructure to be tied to one interest rate?

 

Yes, but with the reservation that the Euro-zone has expanded far too quickly.

 

(8) Would you agree, in the great scheme of things it is sometimes necessary to take a pill in an attempt to regain democratic rights, many of which we invented?

 

Sometimes. However, now is the wrong time.

 

(9) What is actually improving over the last 8yrs in the EU?

 

Many things, such as cultural exchange, scientific collaboration, medical research, security data and a host of other things whereby pooled resources bring harmony. If the economic slowdown has affected the EU, then it's fair to say it's affected most of the rest of the planet too.

 

Brexit may well cause some unpleasant turbulence for us all. But so may a continuing economic slowdown in China, further unrest in the Middle East, further problems in Greece and Italy within the banking systems, stagnation or worse in European Unemployment figures, Especially in Greece and Spain with 24% and 20% respectively, and not to mention EU governance failing to acknowledge democracy. -

 

Brexit wasn't even supposed to happen. Now that it has, are you trying to bestow the quality of foresight on it's "founding fathers"?

 

Over the next 5yrs some or all of these may come to pass, plus any number of other events that effect economies and markets but the lemon suckers will undoubtedly blame Brexit. This, while not having the faintest idea of where we would have been by remaining.

 

Remaining, we would have remained roughly the same. 5th global economic power! That's good, isn't it? Why change it?

 

I'm not a lemon sucker because I sorely hope Britain comes out of this intact. But I'll certainly be blaming Brexit when it's justified to do so. And will do so when the smarmy politicians herald a small step forward whist conveniently erasing the six backwards steps from the collective memory stick.

 

We are a productive, inventive, imaginative, multiracial, hardworking and generally trustworthy little Island in the North Atlantic. We are definitely not going to bring the World or ourselves to its knees.

 

But we may just have been the catalyst that sparked a much greater disorder.

 

What sensible reason could any country or body put forward to make trade agreements with the UK punitive?

 

Self interest?

 

I’m not aware of a groundswell of the 17 million + Brexiteers clambering for a rerun via Twitter or Facebook. Nor, I suspect, would there have been had they lost.

 

Agree - it's done, albeit crazily. Time to get on with it.

 

Time to talk us up not down, we are after all a very resolute nation.

 

Of course we are. But I'll "talk us down" all I want because it's my right to do so. We are a democracy, after all?

 

We are still in Europe. We will still defend Europe. We are still in NATO.

 

But we just made it all a bit harder.

It'll be perfectly recognisable. We'll be a big nation on the edge of Europe threatening to leave if we don't get what we want. Plus ça change, plus ça meme chose.

 

Edit: I notice 9.72% of people in this poll are still undecided, a mere month after polling day. They're probably the only right ones.

I'll wait for the second tour of the French presidential elections on May 7th before judging that. As it stands, Brexit and Daech play into the hands of the extreme right. Tipping point?

Quite scary really. The geo-political landscape ten years from now could be unrecognisable.