real

Anyone for a bit of Bruce Hornsby and the Range?

True, still gets my goat though. Some people just don't bother to look at what's really happening. Gregan decided to play on, but that's shez's fault. Eardley played well, but first bad pass you see - get on his back asap.

Perhaps shez was right about some people staying away. Can anyone really make a case for the defence for this sort? They pay their money? Well that doesn't wash with me.

....in the lookers upper today a guy exemplified perfectly the utter crassness of himself and so many others. He shouted out about 2 things:

1. When Gregan went down a few mins after his injury and had to go off, he was shouting that Sheridan was an idiot and should have taken Gregan off already, he even shouted "put him in goal, that's what you usually do".

2. With about 5 mins to go, Eardley made his first mis-placed pass - a ball down the line to Liddell that went out. So he shouts "Back to normal Eardley".

We win 2-0, the team play well, there's not much to find fault with at all. But some people just have to, just absolutely have to, have something to moan about. Shez out!

I think its totally different. The football club are providing a source of entertainment. They shouldnt just give up on trying to attract support. We have seen the potential of the town when we let people in for free and it was a sell-out. I think a good attempt to attract new and existing supporters should be made every season. If you dont then crowds will just continue to dwindle. Such systems have worked at other clubs so why not ours.

I think calling a free game a "sell out" is a bit odd. When they charged £2 a game, we got about 4000 extra fans, a few of whom bothered to turn up for the Forest New Years day massacre, but very few of whom (or none) turned up for the next game. So 2 games at £2 each, then an AMAZING game, then they don't bother. 5426 for the penultimate league game when we were in the play offs. 10,207 when it's £2.

So you'd see them as being better value if we could still be relegated?

I think Derby fans have a slightly stronger case for a refund than someone griping over 2 games left that they've paid less than £14 on average for.

Look, you're making yourself look daft now.....pull yer head in please.

Ok, you couldn't work anything out so you've resorted to poseur remarks. Last resorts and all that.

Next time, try to field and argument, a view, anything, backed up by something more substantial that what spins inside your head.

Meanwhile I can't wiat for the next round of the ST debate, when you and a few others post "Why didn't they do a discount scheme if we got more than "x" sales" followed by "they don't listen to fans".

If YOU think it will work, would YOU put your house up to cover any losses? Nah, you're just an opinion without anything behind it. Hollow headed internet sarky merchant. Yeah, you've wound me up, big deal, I get annoyed by people who can type faster than they can think.

Circles, bloody circles.

Are you being a wind up or what? of course it's circles - you think it's a good idea, but only with your eyes closed and your brain not being used.

"think" isn't just a figure of speech.

"I dismiss the figures that 'real' has given....." - How? Can you gice a critique or do you just "dismiss" them with a wave of your hand?

"I really cannot see what the big deal is....." - Erm it's the money.

"Presumably the target amount of pledges would have to generate the same income that would be created by the 3,000 " - Erm, no, it's not that simple.

"Perhaps not, but what's the harm in trying ? " - Erm, it's the money (again) - losses, lots of them.

"I can see no reason why it can't be done at Oldham" - beacuse you are not listening to reasons, you're just dismissing the ones that don't agree with you.

"This scheme can work IF we sell a certain amount of season tickets - there can be no argument against this. The only argument is whether we can sell enough of the season tickets." - Without the right price and the right numbers there is no scheme. Your "This scheme" is NOT a scheme, it's little more than a notion

It's no wonder it's going nowhere, you haven't come up with anything.

I might as well follow the full bradford scheme and say let's make it buy one, get one free! That'll bring in more fans won't it? Or a free pie and pint every game with a ST? Or maybe a free car park pass too! And on and on and on. These are NOT schemes, these are ideas, or notions, but until you start to put some figiure on it, it doesn't work. I could take the most ridiculously favourable terms of your idea and it still won't meet the income of last season.

4000 x £300 STs + 1500 on the day: Income = £1,820,000

Let's says we still get 500 on the day aways fans = £207,000

So we need £1,613,000

That's 10,000 fans at £150. And Still £113,000 short.

So, you THINK £150 is doable? HOW. Any figures you like, any at all.

Listen pal, I know how to use a calculator too. I might be wrong, and if I am then I apologise, but I think you're trying to patronise me. I ignored you the first time. I come in peace and just want to have a debate and keep things pleasant...

 

I mean this very politely so please please don't take it the wrong way - IMO your figures mean nothing, absolutely nothing. It's not maths you're doing, just guessing.

Yard Dog, you stated that you can see no reason why it can't be done, but holding an opinion like that without the figures amounts to nothing. You said, long before I quoted any figures, that we would need to double the 3000 STs to halve the price, but that theory ignored the on-the-day sales. I've shown, using a higher number of STs (which favours your case) and a lower ST price (again, favours your case), based on what I think are reasonable estimates, that it's a very difficult scheme to implement.

Selling 1-2000 extra STs would be primarily to on-the-day fans who come to most games anyway, you'd have to go above 6000 to be bringing in lapsed fans.

You say my figures mean "nothing", well, don't take this the wrong way, because if an opinion based on some figures means nothing, then one based on no figures at all means less than that. So there's no point at all to your comments. YOUR 6000 x £150 figure would see income halved. You simply don't like my figures, but they started off with your figures, then went further in your favour, but they still don't add up.

So, for the final time, if YOU think it can work, tell us what the price would be and what the number of sales would need to be. Otherwise you don't "think" it can work, you're just "guessing/hoping/crossing your fingers" that it can work.

There is no point in me and you banding about figures which basically are nothing more than guestimates.

 

You can make all the calculations you want, but you nor me know the precise details of the accounts at BP.

 

What we do know is that if we currently have 3,500 season ticket holders then we would have to sell double that number to generate the same amount of income selling season tickets at half-price. But what if these additional season tickets mean our pay on the day income decreases I hear you say. Ok, we factor this in and try to sell slightly more than double the amount of season tickets - this along with increased match-day sales, merchandise sales throughout the season, car parking, lotto, extras sponsorship should cover this loss of income from pay-on-the-dayers that some of you think will happen.

 

A scheme like this can work. The season tickets will have to be cheap as chips i.e Bradford prices and we will obviously have to sell a certain amount - whether we can reach the required target nobody knows until we try. Are we scared of trying ?

If we don't use figures, there's no point to this at all, it isn't a discussion it's just hot air. 7000 x £150 is just over £1m, there would be NO pay on the day at that price. What's more, I've used £300 rather than the £320 that was charged for 07-08. 3500 x £320 is over £1.1m.

We don't even know if we do have 3500 STs, that's a guess too. If it's 3000 the figures go worse, not better unless you choose your route of ignoring/blurring pay-on-the-day.

3000 x £300 = £900k

2500 x £18 x 23 = £1,035k

I don't think 6000 x £150 will see us do very well on a halved gate income. You, along with others have suggested it will work, but you are just guessing (by your own admission) and even further than that, you're not even attempting to look at any figures. How can you suggest it will work / makes sense / is a goer? Is that how you run your own finances?

I totally agree with the sentiment behind your point, but I am not at all convinced by your calculations. Clearly, the point we disagree on is the pay on the day income.

 

You're not at all convinced by the scheme, are you.

If you don't agree with the figures, put up what you think our current ST and pay-on-the-day receipts are. Do you think I've over-estimated the STs and underestimated the On-the-day? Some suggest we only have 3000 STs.

I'm not convinced at all that we can both reduce prices and maintain income. As for spending elsewhere, every £1 spent within the ground might yield 30p but every £1 on a ST yields £1.

Really hoping I haven't missed something glaringly obvious here, but why do the season tickets need to be about 270 quid at 7,000 ?

Based on my estimate of current income from home fans: 3500 STs at £300 (which is £20 less than current) + 2000 on the days at £18, totalling just under £1.9m per season in gate receipts. If you think the figure is wrong, fine, come up with another figure.

Saying we don't need a baseline figure is madness - we might as well pitch them at £150, sell 7000 and then and see the club go pop!

Anyone can come up with a scheme to reduce ST prices, the key is to do one that matches current gate receipts. £200 x 6000 means a loss of £700k against the wage bill - £13k a week!! Even £250 for 7000 loses £150k, which is £3k a week - or a very good player at this level.

£270 x 7000 = £1.89m

Estimates of £7 per person in "other" sales are way off imo. Some people don't spend a penny. Even on sales that do happen, the profit is marginal - I bet we don't make 50p on each pie or pint after purchase cost, staffing and maintenance of facilities. Having said that, some people may be more inclined to spend on the basis of getting a ST cheaper, but that's probably only the people who currently get a ST.

At last, someone who agrees that these schemes can work.....thought I was well and truly on my own for a min

The problem is that when people say 7000 is achievable, they need to put a price next to it. For 7000 that would have to be about £270, which is £11.75 a game. The current ST price is less than £14 a game, and although it's a £2.25 difference, I don't see it as being a huge difference - both are in the £10-15 bracket.

The key figure imo is £10, if you can get it below that, then you've got a publicisable figure. That needs 8250 sales (at adult prices).

But given that we currently have (at a guess?) 3500 STs, can we double that with a small discount?

Up to 6000 £320

Over 6000 £310

Over 6500 £300

Over 7000 £270 (£50 off) - same price as 15 games at £18

Over 8000 £240 (£80 off)

Over 9000 £229 (under £10 a game)

Emphasise the £50 kids ticket (should make it £46 just so it's £2 a game)

But I just don't belive that we would get over 7000. One serious argument in it's favour is the expansion of fan base. Maybe with the new stadium plans though it's not on the agenda?

Perhaps not, but what's the harm in trying ?

The harm comes when we need 9000 sales to run such a scheme, but then we only get 6500 sales and we then have about 3000 people who complain that latics didn't do enough to sell the scheme, that they were sold a false promise, that they have been conned.

As for matchday revenues, let's allow 50p a pie and 50p a pint for every extra supporter over 5500. An extra £100k then over the whole season in match day revenue. Hardly gonna make a huge difference is it?

I think these sort of posts should be banned unless the poster actually does the maths. We get 3500 STs and about 2000 on the days. Work out a scheme off that, which allows for 6000 STs and see what you can come up with. (clue:- £1.8m / 6000 = £300).

Your sums assume that we won't get any more fans if we hugely cut the prices. Now that is plain silly.

I've assumed an extra 1500 ST holders. And dropped the pay on the days accordingly. I can't see many people paying on the day at £18 when it's £6.50 on a ST.

So instead, let's take our best home gate of the season and use that as the ST figure and no pay on the days at all:-

8168 (vs Hudds in the cup) x £150 = £1,225,200

So, still less.

You'd need over 9200 fans and the trotman money. And that way a £500k fee would evaporate in 1 year. And we'd get no pay on the days at all. And what if we only get 5000 at £150? Do we fold the club or just accept a terrible season and relegation?

You said it makes good business sense to you, but did you actually bother to add it all up?

Why not use the Trotman money to subsidise cheaper Season Tickets? Would make good business sense to me. £150 a pop, everyones a winner.

£300 x 3500 = £1,050,000, gate receipts averaging 2000 x £18 x 23 games = £828,000: Total £1,878,000

£150 x 5000 = £750,000, gate receipts averaging 500 x £18 x £23 = £207,000: Total £957,000.

Drop in receipts:- £921,000

i.e all the Trotman money and another £400k lost on top, a heavily reduced wage budget too!

I prefer Latics & England's way. And £6.50 a game is plain silly.

You proved nothing of the kind. During the Wadsworth and Dowie seasons the crowds were higher than at present and higher than under Ritchie. They remained higher than now in the season after the summer of hell.

 

I suggest you get the stats out again.

Holy Cow!

Are you seriously suggesting that after the sepnding splurges of Waddie and Dowie our crowds have dropped?

So THEY were the hard/faithfulcore?

Come off it jonesy, we hit 3000 home fans-ish in 2000-01, that was the showing of the hardcore.

Again, I say it, how do YOU define hardcore? By usin people who don't turn up come what may or those that DO?

You want to see yerself as h/c, even if you step off the treadmill? Ok, do just that, just don't expect me to swallow it. Hardcore is what it says on the the tin. Not all of us have always been h/c, but those of us who are honest don't pontificate on behalf of h/c when we know we are not, nor do we claim to repreesent h/c who are clearly not.

I don't expect it to mean anything to you. Every disagreement isn't some kind of personal duel, you know.

 

The point remains that when the home crowd falls to the three and a half thousand mark, lower than it was in the darkest days under Ritchie and Brierley, it isn't the fickle who are walking.

I'm failry certain that it dipped to the low 3000s during ritchie's time, might even have gone under 3000. Can't find the records though.

Jonesy,

are you seriously defining hardcore and diehards as the "fans" who are now leaving and giving up? Rather than those that when asked if they are renewing their ST, respond with "YES".

presumably you get a victoria cross for going home in your army.

"I'm Oldham 'til I get fed up, I'm Oldham 'til I get fed up........"

Utter cobblers, no matter how much YOU think such people are "hardcore" or "die hards", they quite clearly are NOT.

Just done it too, good luck.

Keep hearing about it on the Rev, wondered if anyone who's a Latic was in it.

Assuming anyone can get a mortgage, lots of banks and building society's are pulling the plug on lending at the moment. I would say it is a bit of a threat to the development of BP at the moment.

Even without a mortgage people will still need somewhere to live.

700 flats at £500 pcm rent = a very tidy sum. As the housing markets cools down, builders will have less work and will have to be more price competitive. Given that this is a development that can be viewed for the long term, it's less of an issue once you put the cash in place to get the building work done.

Then again, maybe the, at times, vehement level of criticism against them and others on this thread by a bunch of anonymous "usernames" may explain why some people prefer to live a life of limited technology.

I re-read the OPs first post and then re-read it again and again. I can't understand how people have managed to take such great offence at it. Seems more like people reading something into it that they want to see.

Say the judgement is that the 15 points was not valid, surely that will make the whole deal invalid. in which case Leeds have to surrender their "Golden Share" and leave the league, all results being expunged, one less relegation from Lge 1 and 1 less from Lge 2????

My understading was that at the time Leeds asked for their Share to be granted, they did not meet the financial management criteria to have it returned. The FL made an exception to allow them to have it back (to prevent them folding as a club) subject to a 15 pt penalty. If the pennalty is off, so is the deal???

I heard loads of people make homophobic comments about a hudds fan in a pink sweater on saturday. Didn't see anyone complain about it though. Franny's comment about Rickers et al is for them to complain about, not anyone else, and I doubt they were upset about it, so why are others getting all outraged by it?

One thing people have to bear in mind is that what slurms will want from a PA might not be what I would want, nor what an old duffer would want, nor what the under 14s would want, or what the 15-25s would want. Anyway a lot of people are more concerned with getting a pie and a drink.

I'd like to hear The Jam, Pulp, Clash, Wah!, etc etc but I doubt many others would be happy with MY playlist, just as I would probably hate other peoples, however I actually go to BP for the FOOTBALL.

For my money the PA is there to entertain the kids who turn up. It's not an eighties indie club, it's a football club.

This is much like the pie/food debate - some want pies, some burgers, some hot dogs, some want curries, others wanted "wraps" (!) etc etc, but you can't cater in that way. Sometimes in situations like this, your demographic is not the target one.

I was sat next to him in the first half - he was completely wrecked but holding it togther but was boring me to pieces all the way through the game talking to me as if I'd never been to BP before and hadn't a clue who anyone was, but he was well behaved.

In the 2nd half he went up about 20 levels to incoherent, tuneless, rambling, drunken (stoned?), vulgar, offensive etc etc, but I don't think anyone actually complained. He was funny though - like a car crash. His chants at the chaddy, calling them muppets were odd - and references to LSD too??

To be honest if my kids had been there I'd have asked him to tone it down/knock it off, but they didn't want to go so as it wasn't bothering me that much I wasn't going to say anything.

The steward did have a word with him though long before he got taken out, but it did seem to fall on deaf ears. I don't think they had a lot of choice - he was the epitome of drawing attention.

I guess it comes down to a choice for the fans. do we want a discount on season tickets (isn't about £14 a game for any area and £2 for kids fairly cheap?) or do we want a decent team. We can't have our cake and eat it.

That foul he gave against eardley on the lookers side was a joke, it was a nothing block off, but he let far heftier challenges go. I don't mind a ref that sets a standard but mr kettle was woefully inconsistent. for both sides.