mikejh45

No. Could David Beckham?

 

Im missing your point, but not deliberately.

I agree that Liddell puts over quality crosses and given the space he will drop it into a position where the forward will benefit, but he needs the other players around him to work the defenders to make that space. Therefore, if the midfield unit is working well, he is an asset and the team benefits. If the midfield is not playing well, then there is not a good enough end product. You can't laud Liddell's stats without acknowledging the other players.

My point about the defence is not Stam on his own but in two separate defensive partnerships we have won more and conceded less than when Gregan plays. This is not about whether Gregan is/is not our best defender, but what is our best defence.

KTF Stitch - for his unswerving loyalty to certain players.

(No offence Stitch - I'm smiling whilst typing this)

Bollocks.

As for Liddell - I think a league recognised stat, one where he had 50% more assists than Mr Runner-up, was more than worth a mention in the debate about whether he should play/get a new deal. And I've seen him lay on a fair few chances this season.....

Do you disregard 'goals-scored' statistics too?

You seem to deliberately miss my point!!!

I will repeat my question.

Could he put the crosses in if he didn't get the space created by the other midfield players? Yes or no?

Good debate this, I'm enjoying this one!!!

And BOLLOCKS to your argument about Gregan!!!

But we were discussing Gregan, not the defence, and it was yourself who brought the Lidds stats into it. I used the words 'directly relevant' when distinguishing what to make of them. Results aren't directly relevant to Greegs, assists awarded to Liddell clearly are. So, following your counter argurment, oh :censored: it im confused. Just take it from me, Greegs is our best defender. Easily......hence the strut.

That's the crux of the argument. He isn't our best defender.

PROS

- Wins headers in his immediate zone.

- Times tackles very well.

CONS

- Current back four not talking and unsettled and disorganised.

- Too slow and susceptible to being turned.

If the argument about Liddell stood up, why aren't we getting the assists now? It's because he is not getting the space. It's a team game and you are not giving credit to the other midfield players. You are simply projecting a statistic on it's own.

As far as defensive stats are concerned, a back four is better off without Gregan in his present form.

Stam is lucky to still be at the club, and he wont be next season.

Well that's a considered response.

Answer this, when I previously put forward stats about back four partnerships from last season, the best defensive goals conceded was Eardley/Trotman/Stam/Lomax followed by Eardley/Hazell/Stam/Lomax. Why was that? Was Stam just lucky? Or maybe that he might just be a better defender than you give him credit for!!!

I have noticed a lot of blinkered views in here. When a player falls into a negative light on here, nothing will change that opinion.

I take the view that all players deserve a continued runout until their form dictates otherwise. Last season, Stam was unlucky to be dropped. This season, both Liddell and Gregan started out far better than my expectations (and before anybody comments I have stated so on here) but both, in my opinion, have not warranted their automatic slot in the line-up in recent weeks.

So very true, now thats a FACT.

If, as we have seen over the past few games, Liddell crosses the ball into the nearpost and both forwards are at the back post. Is the cross still a good one and the forwards are at fault because they aren't where Liddell put the ball or is it a bad cross because he's not looking up to see the forwards' movement? When the midfield are offensively playing well, Liddell has the time to cross a meaningful opportunity.

Therefore the argument in comparison to the defence does not stand up to scrutiny. Liddell could not cross the ball if the other players did not make the space for him to do so. Therfore, it is not Liddell on his own but the midfield as a unit.

Fair point. However I will say that the Liddell assist stats mentioned by many (including me) were at least directly relevant to Lidds (and his primary role in the team), as opposed to attributing the teams' stats/results to whether Gregan was in the side or not. I mean his inclusion was hardly the only variable was it?

Following your argument, then Stam's primary role was to stop the opposition scoring, therefore the stats state that he was a contributory factor in the improvement of goals conceded over Gregan.

He's a statistician, I'm a business analyst, and we could knock you out individually with our alcohol breathe at 20 yards if you cost us our jobs!

I'm a real ale monster, I'll take my chances. Besides I'm an estimator with a calculator.

Do you feel lucky, punk???

If you fancy being in the middle when OldhamSheridan marches down from his Durham dole centre and I travel up from the London one, caught in a pincer movement of righteous cidery/lagery fury, go right ahead

Meaning what, pray tell?

I suspect strongly that the stats would show you that we were rubbish all round when both were missing. You can read as much or as little as you want.

Or that we were better without both of them! Stats can indeed be interpreted. That's why we drag them out to suit our arguments.

Well that's that. The stats never lie! So please point this out to Shez asap.....although I doubt there would be any clubs willing to take him off our wage bill.....

I remember not too long ago stats being used to tell us how effective Liddell is with goal assists.

Now, we have the stats to show that the defence was more successful without Gregan.

So are the stats to be dismissed as a whole or selectively used to suit one's arguments?

Can we just alter how many go up automatically depending on where Leeds finish?

Now I've had my little rant!!!

Can I have:

1) Fuel as cheap as the Yanks.

2) A pension as good as the French.

3) The same amount of holidays as Johnny Foreigner.

4) A lunchtime like the Spanish.

Whoever does that will get my vote.

Who the F--- wants the Tories back in?

Me, for one.

We had a healthy economy when Bliar took over with Brown holding the puse strings and look now:

- Government coffers empty.

- Armed forces throwing rocks because the MoD spend on bureaucrats instead of the frontline.

- Record investment in the NHS and still we are short of doctors and nurses.

- Unemployment on the up because this shower hid the true number in incapacity or employed them in pointless council jobs.

- No police when you want them.

- Private pensions worth bugger all because Gordon started an annual TAX grab which, I might add, doesn't affect an M.P.'s pension.

- One of the highest fuel costs in the world.

Need I go on?

time for some FACTS lol

 

greegs played nineteen times last season, and we lost eight FACT

he missed thirty six games, of which we lost nine FACT

as soon as he got injured we instantly stopped losing FACT

as soon as he returned we instantly lost FACT

if there is a pillock on this board with a selective memory it aint me FACT

Good point, well made, Daz. I'm with you on this one. Be prepared for your stats to be ignored though.

1) The overwhelming majority of complainers about Brand/Ross didn't listen to it. They jumped on the bandwagon.

 

2) That still doesn't make it right: if somebody rang my Dad to say they'd had sex with my daughter I'd want to kill them.

 

3) A gentleman retains discretion when he's had his way with a lady, even a Satanic Slut ;)

 

3) Clarkson hasn't target any individual - it's a genralistic joke - take it or leave it. Quite funny when I think about it, not funny to others. Not in the same very personal class that Brand/Ross found.

 

4) The BBC is a bloated, wasteful up its own arse organisation at the best of times.

 

5) The BBC spends more on digital channels that nobody watches than Sky spend on sport. They could actually put Sky out of business and provide us all with free (licence fee funded) football on our tellys simply by scrapping their :censored:e channels and giving us a single sports channel.

Clarkson for PM, I say.

Talking of the Beeb wasting shed loads of money, I believe they sent about 175 people to the good old USA to to cover election day.

I have no problem if Lids gets dropped but only when we have a better player in his place. Taylor will beat his man but its the crossing bit, he just cant do it consistantly whether its with his left or right foot, and you need at least one winger who will put decent balls into the box - im not saying lids does it every single time but there is no-one at the club better than him at doing that at the minute.

I agree that Liddell puts across quality crosses as he did earlier this season, but he needs to be given the space to do that. He's not the player to do a quick trick to make that space. So in recent games he has been marked a lot closer and his ability to put in a good cross has been negated. Time to look at someone who can make the defenders work harder.

I went for Whittaker. Thought he did a lot of good work around the penalty box apart from shooting.

Gregan has never looked hungry to me.

Excellent! Well done, you bastard!!!

I suppose you are. It was your deeming of my comment that he is talented laughable that I took exception to.

 

Greegs may not have been at his best of late. But any notion of dropping him on the back of it is outrageous.

 

Maybe if the midfield stopped letting wave after wave of attack come straight through the middle the defence as a whole would look more comfortable, and the team concede fewer goals?

Apologies for the talented comment, Stitch.

I agree with the midfield bit, but my point at the moment is that certain players who are expected to lead by example are not.

The engine room is not firing at the moment. The space that Liddell had earlier in the season is now not there because we are not getting the ball to him quickly enough. His crosses were poor on Saturday as was Eardley's. I think now is the time to give Maher a runout. But is dropping Allott going to give us a solid midfield platform and the opportunity for our defence to become a unit again?

Or is dropping Whittaker going to lose us some attacking impetus?

In general Gregan is as important a player as we have. Why can we not say this, yet admit that he has been a little on the gash side for periods in the last few weeks?

Agree to a point, but is and should he be, on current form, an automatic? Dropping him should (not saying will) give him the arse-kick to get him back to being hungry.

Nor will I. The goals against column is influenced by a lot more than the choice of one centre half. Generally your posts indicate to me that you ought to know that full well, but yet again you are getting carried away through your dislike for a player. Your dislike of Liddell at least had some sensible grounding.....

 

If you genuinely dont think Greegs is respected or talented then I really can't be arsed discussing footy with you any further. And if you were right, and I am the blinkered one, how on earth did he acquire the experience we agree he has?

 

By the way I was told by somebody in the know that the players feel more confident when Greegs plays. Apparently his great confidence and self-belief rubs off on them and they feel more comfortable with their leader on the pitch. I thanked the person in question for stating the obvious......

I do not have a dislike of any player in the squad, but if after a number of games a particular player (in this instance Gregan) is not performing then I am entitled to question his right to an automatic slot.

Your point regarding Gregan being a comfort to the other players would stand up to scrutiny if the 4 in the defence didn't play and inter-react like strangers. This is Gregan's primary role as captain and lead defender, he should be organising the others. If, as stated by other people on different posts, Jones is not playing as a left back then it is Gregan's job to make sure he does. Quite simply, Gregan is NOT performing and NOT leading. I am a committed Oldham fan and a Gregan fan when he is on form. He needs to be taken out of the starting 11 when a replacement is available so he can get out of his personal, automatic place comfort zone and get back to the standard we know he is capable of.

He is a joke

 

4 of the worst corners I have ever seen

No different to Liddell, Taylor and Whittaker then!!!

So why single out Maher when he's hardly had any playing time since he arrived?

And yet Stam probably wouldn't even have had a new contract had it not been automatically triggered.

 

And yes of course the desire to have leadership and presence is something to make a mockery of, particularly when it comes from not only the most experienced, respected player at the club, but also the most talented.

 

For :censored:s sake.

 

 

Anyway......

But you still don't comment on the fact we shipped fewer goals last season when Stam was present.

Experienced - yes.

Respected - no (Hence, the defensive communication problem we are having now).

Talented - I take it that's your little joke for the day. He's a stopper/resident on-field thug who shouts a lot and who is going through a bad patch.

No no....nothing has ever led me to believe that Gregan and Shez are mates. Shez clearly values the presence of experienced quality in a team largely made up of home-grown youth.

 

Others would prefer a dutchman who is half the player, has half the experience, half the presence, half the pitch time and who wouldn't say boo to a goose.

I, for one, would prefer Stam (seeing as his name has slipped your memory) and whose stats last season were better than Gregan's both last season and this. And in both partnerships Eardley/Trotman/Stam/Lomax and Eardley/Hazell/Stam/Lomax, we didn't have a this 'leader' so that rather makes a mockery of the leadership/presence argument.