Haribo_man Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Edited August 11, 2009 by Haribo_man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) No the 14 mill does not include this purchase, that is just the cost of building the stadium. Im obviously a bit confused by your proposal In your proposal, do you expect TTA to simply walk away empty handed, 12.5 million down? Yes - SC has stated that we will own the ground and that they wont be around much longer, thus ruining any notion of making it back in operating profits. Clearly they have realised and accepted this to be the cost of owning a half decent football club for 7/8/9 years. If you ask me we owe them a massive thankyou for agreeing to let us keep the ground.....we have already sold our land once remember. I just want to invest their generousity a little differently, i.e by making us as attractive as possible to significant new investment (as outlined at the top). Can you just clarify what you mean by this...it makes no sense whatsoever?? I have a feeling you've confused a lot of information together. Whilst all my posts on this thread have been rushed everybody else has seemingly found it to be coherent. Edited August 11, 2009 by Stitch_KTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) I normally just observe the debate as opposed to getting involved but the matter of the capacity and us being forever confined to the mediocrity of lower league football is one which has fascinated me greatly. the corp inparticular has been particularly voiciferous about this being the beginning of the end blah blah blah. Now we have the fantastic idea of sexing ourselves up and touting the product to the highest bidder who happens to have a couple of billion spare. Lets try and be realistic about this, we are lucky to have in place some owners which have already invested and placed us on a stable footing with the prospect of a shiny new stadium in the pipeline. To some this is not adequate as 12,000 seats will simply not accomodate the huge crowds which we are expecting. I am a but nonplussed as to where this 150% increase in attendence is going to come from and I certainly see no correlation between that and how we are condemmed to 3rd tier football for the rest of existence. Corp quite rightly wants a return to the glory days when we enjoyed 3 seasons in the top tier of English football, who in their right mind doesn't? Not for one minute can i see TTA wishing to stagnate and aettle for the lower leagues - does building a ground to cater for our needs whilst in thi league and the one above mean that? Of course not. It was on only a few occasions that we ever exceeded that capacity whilst in the prem. If you used football grounds and capacity for a marker of success then you will be way off the mark. I mean, boundary park was hardly the biggest draw when we had our greatest recent success was it, for Christs sake the RRE didn't even have seats or a roof! Granted we may have missed opportunities and could have perhaps consolidated but we are under a different regime now. If they were happy to settle for lower league football why go to the trouble of bringing in a new gaffer? Surely we would have sat comfortably at the same level for years under Shez? The comparisons to teams like Burnley and Bolton are also non-starters. By and large these are both better supported and traditionally more successful clubs than ours and for the most part have either been in the same division or above barring our purple patch late 1980's early 90's. In fact if we were to use that as a yardstick take Bury, historically more seasons in the top flight than us and FA cup winners - crazy! I could go on but I imagine that I have bored people with my ramblings enough. Basically 12,000 is more than adequate for our needs now and we can expand if required, where is the issue there? We managed to have a great period whilst trading out a dive of a ground so where is the relevance to that. Have we been left behind by other clubs? That is debateable but I think for the most part we are probably at our level as depressing as that may seem to some. We will always have a chance for promotion and have come close twice so why does that mean we won't succeeed. To date I have not seen the Corp put forward any suggestions as to how we will break the cycle. I have previousley seen a quote stating that it isn't his job - why isn't it corp? if you want to see success then surely it is. Lets get behind the people which are clearly trying to attempt something positive at our club an extra 4000 seats will not make a jot of difference at this stage! As for the middle eastern oil baron coming in and making us the most successful team around, well I probably have got more chance of getting myself into the best shape and bagging me princess Stephanie of Monaco! Your post addresses points, and posters, not present on this thread. My point isn't just that we need more seats.... The proposition is for a 12k seater stadium and facilities to leave us 'self-sufficient'. In todays football world this will never allow us to compete - significant outside investment is essential. I'm looking at ways to make us as attractive as possible to the next egotistical multi-multi-millionaire who fancies owning an English football club. I feel that what the current proposals symbolise makes us quite unnattractive to a major investor. I'm aiming at guys who would relish a club with a decent history and a clean slate, on the doorstep of Europe's current footballing hotbed as opposed to guys who are glad the club doesn't have a £400k maintenance bill and some offices and astroturf pitches to rent out. Edited August 11, 2009 by Stitch_KTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeP Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I have always wondered what we should have done during our Prem days and subsequent relegation to the Championship (or whatever it was back then), with the use of hindsight, what we could as a club have done differently. Obviously selling our best players would be one, but then due to the financial impact of relegation this was somewhat unavoidable. I think once we dropped out of the Prem and didnt get back the following year, the spiral to where we are today was inevitable. We have never been lucky enough to have a sugar daddy like Wigan and Blackburn have had in the past. Neither are exactly massive clubs who were steeped in history, but yet had the luck of having rich local investors. Do you think there is anything we could have done once we were relegated to have stopped the rot before it really set in? Not let Mark Hughes score that volley at Wembley, during our Prem days!!! Following relegation, I'm not sure. I think the appointment of Sharp after Royle left was a crucial mistake. On the financial front, we were really unlucky to get relegated when we did. Say we'd had our three years in the top flight three years later, we would have got a lot more money from Sky, etc meaning we may have had a better opportunity to bounce back we went down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryatt Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Subtle difference. I think we would cement our place as a 3rd/4th tier club, which will probably be non-league before too long. Maybe not, but then this is only my second season without a season-ticket since 1991/92 (the first being Wadsworths season after spitting my dummy out at Ritchie's sacking). Doubt there's too many more 'hardcore'. have not missed a home game, league or cup for 22years, go to 80% away too! still have not spit- my dummy out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics_Fanatic Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Well Everyone Likes Positivity! *Sarcastic* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUNGFOO Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 i didnt no mystic meg was a oldham fan fml change the record ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUNGFOO Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wcZerlfHEM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookers87 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 [quote name='Stitch_KTF' date='Aug 11 2009, 17:18 PM' post='295913' Whilst all my posts on this thread have been rushed everybody else has seemingly found it to be coherent. Not really Stitch, the reason it makes no sense whatsoever is that your proposal makes no business/football sense whatsoever. Fair play having a go, but as you've since clarified what you meant in other posts I'll leave it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Incidentally, I did see the Corp as nothing but a mine of dry humour up until these ground proposals came out. However, now that his predictions are on the verge of becoming reality I share his deepest concerns. Everything I've predicted over the last year or so has, so far, come true: the ditching of the BP redevelopment; the proposal of an inferior substitute; official talk of a groundshare with Rochdale; and all of it pointing towards a Rochdale type existence as a 'well-run' lower division club that never gets anywhere. There is absolutely no reason to think that the rest will not come true. In fact, if things continue on the lines they seem set on they are guaranteed. Edited August 11, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 "Meanwhile more and more 'hardcore' fans like myself will find better things to do with their Saturday afternoons " Can't be that hardcore then. Loads of hardcore fans have already done so. No club is immune from an eroding fanbase when it appears to have ditched all ambition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) the reason it makes no sense whatsoever is that your proposal makes no business/football sense whatsoever. Having just re-read that...... Cheers for the clarity. Edited August 11, 2009 by Stitch_KTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 How will Latics survive during the next recession when yet again the town doesn't back them and stay when the new wealthy owners don't seem interested in the fan base and make decisions that switch the new breed of fan off? Once again: there are few towns where a club gets enthusiastic backing in large numbers from its people when it has been in constant decline for fifteen or so years and playing in the third division. This can change when a club looks to have serious ambitions on the pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KUNGFOO Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 were a 3rd division club doing well we aint in administration and have just got a very good manager that is setting things up well atm we aint real madrid maybe some of u should go watch manchester united etc sick of reading the same old dribble in other posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Once again: there are few towns where a club gets enthusiastic backing in large numbers from its people when it has been in constant decline for fifteen or so years and playing in the third division. This can change when a club looks to have serious ambitions on the pitch. Today, serious ambition on the pitch requires serious investment off it. Serious investment is unlikely to be found by a club which has recently moved into a brand-new basement division ground. I think serious investment is more likely to be found by a club boasting a clean slate with a 30 acre site primed for development and £14M in the bank. Let's show some ambition and fall back on proposals like the ones we have if needs must. P.S Of course I'm not sure we even have this option - I am basing the proposal on things which suggest it would be possible without asking anymore than what TTA generously seem prepared to leave us with anyway. Although it could pave the way for a quicker exit and subsequently less running costs to cover for them..... Edited August 11, 2009 by Stitch_KTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I normally just observe the debate as opposed to getting involved but the matter of the capacity and us being forever confined to the mediocrity of lower league football is one which has fascinated me greatly. the corp inparticular has been particularly voiciferous about this being the beginning of the end blah blah blah. No I haven't-I've said that it condemns us to a permanent lower division existence, as reflected in a little ground for games against, in the main, small clubs. Although I doubt if this will be the end of the club's problems, ambitions of 'self-sufficiency' or not. Most lower division and non-league clubs have financial troubles, many of them arising out of the fact that few people are interested in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Lets try and be realistic about this, we are lucky to have in place some owners which have already invested and placed us on a stable footing with the prospect of a shiny new stadium in the pipeline. To some this is not adequate as 12,000 seats will simply not accomodate the huge crowds which we are expecting. I am a but nonplussed as to where this 150% increase in attendence is going to come from and I certainly see no correlation between that and how we are condemmed to 3rd tier football for the rest of existence. Corp quite rightly wants a return to the glory days when we enjoyed 3 seasons in the top tier of English football, who in their right mind doesn't? Not for one minute can i see TTA wishing to stagnate and aettle for the lower leagues - does building a ground to cater for our needs whilst in thi league and the one above mean that? Of course not. It was on only a few occasions that we ever exceeded that capacity whilst in the prem. If you used football grounds and capacity for a marker of success then you will be way off the mark. I mean, boundary park was hardly the biggest draw when we had our greatest recent success was it, for Christs sake the RRE didn't even have seats or a roof! Granted we may have missed opportunities and could have perhaps consolidated but we are under a different regime now. If they were happy to settle for lower league football why go to the trouble of bringing in a new gaffer? Surely we would have sat comfortably at the same level for years under Shez? The comparisons to teams like Burnley and Bolton are also non-starters. By and large these are both better supported and traditionally more successful clubs than ours and for the most part have either been in the same division or above barring our purple patch late 1980's early 90's. In fact if we were to use that as a yardstick take Bury, historically more seasons in the top flight than us and FA cup winners - crazy! I could go on but I imagine that I have bored people with my ramblings enough. Basically 12,000 is more than adequate for our needs now and we can expand if required, where is the issue there? We managed to have a great period whilst trading out a dive of a ground so where is the relevance to that. Have we been left behind by other clubs? That is debateable but I think for the most part we are probably at our level as depressing as that may seem to some. We will always have a chance for promotion and have come close twice so why does that mean we won't succeeed. To date I have not seen the Corp put forward any suggestions as to how we will break the cycle. I have previousley seen a quote stating that it isn't his job - why isn't it corp? if you want to see success then surely it is. Lets get behind the people which are clearly trying to attempt something positive at our club an extra 4000 seats will not make a jot of difference at this stage! As for the middle eastern oil baron coming in and making us the most successful team around, well I probably have got more chance of getting myself into the best shape and bagging me princess Stephanie of Monaco! This is merely more repetition of the usual stupidity. Nobody's saying that BP was 'a draw' when we were in the PL. We had a 100% plus increase in attendances over those years (starting in the second-tier) because of the football on offer, not the stadium. People go on about the low crowds we had in the mid-eighties, but imagine if we'd built a 12000 capacity ground as a result of this back then. We wouldn't have been able to accomodate the 18-19000 crowds we did get on quite a few occasions after that, for a start. In fact, our average attendance while still in the Second Division was over 12000, and the attendance for a number of important games higher still. That's leaving aside the cup runs. No, make no mistake-the reason why a 12000 capacity stadium is being proposed is due to a tacit admission that we will never have those days back and a re not even going to try. (Of course lip-service will still be paid to promotion etc.) The stuff about Bolton and Burnley amounts to the usual excuses. It doesn't matter that they won one or two things in the year dot. What's important is that when we were flying high they were at a low ebb in dilapidated grounds watched by crowds similar to those we get now or even lower at times. The difference is that they rebuilt their fanbases as a result of competence on the football side of things, and improved or rebuilt their facilities, while we failed utterly to hold on to our expanded fanbase, let alone build on it. Why is it up to fans to put forward to proposals of how to 'break the cycle' when the club pays others well to do this? Why the naive assumption that any proposals would be taken up anyway? To my knowledge there are no club owners whose actions are dictated by the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I have always wondered what we should have done during our Prem days and subsequent relegation to the Championship (or whatever it was back then), with the use of hindsight, what we could as a club have done differently. Obviously selling our best players would be one, but then due to the financial impact of relegation this was somewhat unavoidable. I think once we dropped out of the Prem and didnt get back the following year, the spiral to where we are today was inevitable. We have never been lucky enough to have a sugar daddy like Wigan and Blackburn have had in the past. Neither are exactly massive clubs who were steeped in history, but yet had the luck of having rich local investors. Do you think there is anything we could have done once we were relegated to have stopped the rot before it really set in? JW Lees should have grasped the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity while in the PL and either sought additional investment or sold up. Stott and co. should have tried to encourage them to do this, instead of wittering on about 'pinch me' times. If we could have held on just that bit longer we would have had the TV money and parachute payments and held onto the expanded fanbase. We could have become a yo-yo club, or at least maintained a position as serious challengers in the second-tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Your post addresses points, and posters, not present on this thread. My point isn't just that we need more seats.... The proposition is for a 12k seater stadium and facilities to leave us 'self-sufficient'. In todays football world this will never allow us to compete - significant outside investment is essential. I'm looking at ways to make us as attractive as possible to the next egotistical multi-multi-millionaire who fancies owning an English football club. I feel that what the current proposals symbolise makes us quite unnattractive to a major investor. I'm aiming at guys who would relish a club with a decent history and a clean slate, on the doorstep of Europe's current footballing hotbed as opposed to guys who are glad the club doesn't have a £400k maintenance bill and some offices and astroturf pitches to rent out. Something else that people are missing is the possibility that the current recession will turn into a depression that will see the implosion of the PL, and the super-rich clubs breaking away. This would leave the rest with the task of reforming football on a more rational basis with lower wages and lower admission prices, which might bring crowds flocking back to well-positioned clubs who seek to assert themselves in the new order. A 12000 capacity stadium would still be insufficient in such circumstances. Edited August 11, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 Something else that peola re missing out on is the possibility that the current recession will turn into a depression that will see the implosion of the PL, and the super-rich clubs breaking away. This would leave the rest with the task of reforming football on a more rational basis with lower wages and lower admission prices, which might bring crowds flocking back to well-positioned clubs who seek to assert themselves in the new order. A 12000 capacity stadium would still be insufficient in such circumstances. If we build a 12000 seater then everything else will adjust to make it sufficient. As you realise, that's the fundamental problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 If we build a 12000 seater then everything else will adjust to make it sufficient. In a nutshell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downender2 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Your post addresses points, and posters, not present on this thread. My point isn't just that we need more seats.... The proposition is for a 12k seater stadium and facilities to leave us 'self-sufficient'. In todays football world this will never allow us to compete - significant outside investment is essential. I'm looking at ways to make us as attractive as possible to the next egotistical multi-multi-millionaire who fancies owning an English football club. I feel that what the current proposals symbolise makes us quite unnattractive to a major investor. I'm aiming at guys who would relish a club with a decent history and a clean slate, on the doorstep of Europe's current footballing hotbed as opposed to guys who are glad the club doesn't have a £400k maintenance bill and some offices and astroturf pitches to rent out. The proposition is for a 12k seater stadium and facilities to leave us 'self-sufficient'. In todays football world this will never allow us to compete - significant outside investment is essential. I'm looking at ways to make us as attractive as possible to the next egotistical multi-multi-millionaire who fancies owning an English football club. TBH....I don't really want the club owned by an egotistical multi millionaire...who just fancies owning the club... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted August 11, 2009 Author Share Posted August 11, 2009 TBH....I don't really want the club owned by an egotistical multi millionaire...who just fancies owning the club... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downender2 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 is there a problem Houston? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlossopLatic Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Stitch Are you saying that we are going to be more attractive to a bidder if we flog boundary park and go and become tennants at spotland supposedly put the money in the bank therefore becoming a business with no asstes and losing £1million per year. Instead of building a stadium which will be our own asset and that will have facilities which will make us self sufficent? Is this what you are seriously suggesting? Edited August 11, 2009 by GlossopLatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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