slurms mckenzie Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) Chelsea, Man City, QPR Play Off, Blackpool Play off, Hudders in the cup and Grimsby on Celebration day These are the only time we have topped 12K in the last 15 years..... 4 of those games attracted 4500 visiting fans and one was a free giveaway.... Not once have we come close to filling it in over 350 league games at BP in this time. All have been cup or Play off games. Whether or not you think 12K is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise.... Besides if we ever do make it to the championship and hopefully start selling out week in week out our new stadium is being build with the option to expand. What about Wigan before they moved stadiums? To develop your point, why didn't they build the JJB with a six thousand capacity as they rarely got above this anyway... If you would have replaced your "Whether or not you think 12K is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise" with "Whether or not you think 6K (Or even 12K!!) is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise" in the case of Wigan, and you would have been regarded as having a lack of ambition. This is precisely the point here, what latics crowds have been previously is almost an irrelevance, what matters is the ambition with the move and the expected increases in attendance as a result of the move. A move to a stadium smaller than what BP was, before one quarter of it was demolished, has no ambition whatsover. We are only as big club as our ambitions will allow and our ambitions have declined steadily gradually without some on here not even noticing. Edited October 16, 2009 by slurms mckenzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) What about Wigan before they moved stadiums? To develop your point, why didn't they build the JJB with a six thousand capacity as they rarely got above this anyway... "Whether or not you think 12K is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise" with "Whether or not you think 6K (Or even 12K!!) is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise" in the case of Wigan, and you would have been regarded as having a lack of ambition. This is precisely the point here, what latics crowds have been previously is almost an irrelevance, what matters is the ambition with the move and the expected increases in attendance as a result of the move. A move to a stadium smaller than what BP was, before one quarter of it was demolished, has no ambition whatsover. We are only as big club as our ambitions will allow and our ambitions have declined steadily gradually without some on here not even noticing. Because it was built for sharing with rugby league who did get much bigger crowds? As an example ....Wigan Rugby League average crowds:1988-89: 14,934 1992-93: 14,754 1993-94: 14,579 1990-91: 14.570 So comparisons with Wigan Athletic are meaningless. Edited October 16, 2009 by LaticsPete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Rotherham will, I predict, go bust for the third time within a few years, and they may not come back from it. They are an extremely ambitious club. They might-but there's no more chance of that than us going bust, Failsworth or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 for irrelevant read....in your opinion... My opinion is the only one that counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slurms mckenzie Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Because it was built for sharing with rugby league who did get much bigger crowds? As an example ....Wigan Rugby League average crowds:1988-89: 14,934 1992-93: 14,754 1993-94: 14,579 1990-91: 14.570 So comparisons with Wigan Athletic are meaningless. DW has sold the rugby league team and the focus of his ambition was always the football team. Unfortunately, you have missed the point regarding ambition entirely; my statement would have been equally accurate for Huddersfield town who had a poor attendance record, prior to their move to the McAlpine. Do you think that their supporters would have put up with a proposal to move to a stadium with a smaller capacity than Leeds Road? We are only as big club as our ambitions will allow and our ambitions have declined steadily gradually without some on here not even noticing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Chelsea, Man City, QPR Play Off, Blackpool Play off, Hudders in the cup and Grimsby on Celebration day These are the only time we have topped 12K in the last 15 years..... 4 of those games attracted 4500 visiting fans and one was a free giveaway.... Not once have we come close to filling it in over 350 league games at BP in this time. All have been cup or Play off games. Whether or not you think 12K is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise.... Besides if we ever do make it to the championship and hopefully start selling out week in week out our new stadium is being build with the option to expand. The option to extend is disingenuous nonsense. The reason why a stadium with a small capacity is being proposed is because the intention is to, at best, emulate Scunthorpe. If you leave aside the fact that the number of minnow clubs flirting with the Championship has probably reached its limit already (Colchester, Scunthorpe, Southend), that means that any flirtation with the Championship of our own is designed to be brief. There will be no extension to any new ground when we are mired in the bottom three and are relegated at the end of our first season up (never mind that there will be no promotion anyway.) There will be no extension to any stadium at Broadway as long as the human race manages to survive. Aside from that, how many times does it have to be explained that almost no club builds a stadium based on its current average gate? And what do away fans have to do with anything? Presumably you want to see us play plenty of clubs with large away followings. Or are you subsconsciously sharing in the clubs' thinking that we will not be playing that many big clubs ever again (hence the small capacity)? I presume, also, you are too young to recall the days when we could, under the right circumstances, attract a lot more than 12000 home fans. All you are doing in basing everything on the crowds we've averaged in the utterly dismal recent past is sharing in the club's thinking that we are down in the lower divisions forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 DW has sold the rugby league team and the focus of his ambition was always the football team. Unfortunately, you have missed the point regarding ambition entirely; my statement would have been equally accurate for Huddersfield town who had a poor attendance record, prior to their move to the McAlpine. Do you think that their supporters would have put up with a proposal to move to a stadium with a smaller capacity than Leeds Road? But you raised Wigan. Regardless of Whelan being interested in football more, the economic reasons for a ground of the JJB size was the crowds the rugby were getting and could get. They regularly had capacity 18000 gates at Central Park for derbies etc. Huddersfield is interesting. Although again the rugby crowds are a factor - and the ground was facilitated by investment from the local authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I thought Hudds in the cup was about 11½ thousand? Below capacity as I don't think it was a sell out. CJ - I have a question. Did you go on the march from the Town Hall to BP in support of the planning application? See-even a fellow nodding dog acknowledges that there were over 12000 in the ground against Huddersfield. But what are you arguing anyway-that just because we haven't managed a certain attendance in the recent dire past, we should never aim to do so again? You might as well say that just because we're crap now we must accept permanent crapness and base all our future actions on being crap. And haven't I already answered the question about being on the march. Yes, I was on it. But that has nothing to do with anything at all. You remind me of those who say you have no right to complain about government decisions if you didn't vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) But you raised Wigan. Regardless of Whelan being interested in football more, the economic reasons for a ground of the JJB size was the crowds the rugby were getting and could get. They regularly had capacity 18000 gates at Central Park for derbies etc. Huddersfield is interesting. Although again the rugby crowds are a factor - and the ground was facilitated by investment from the local authority. As ever, Bolton is a more valid comparison. You might point to their admittedly larger (but not vastly so) fanbase, but they built a stadium with a 27000 capcity. Few people would realistically expect Latics to do that; they have simply asked why we had the overnight lopping off of a full quarter of the proposed 16000 capacity of the BP redevelopment. It can only be due to a downscaling of ambtions. Edited October 16, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OminousPoultry Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 See-even a fellow nodding dog acknowledges that there were over 12000 in the ground against Huddersfield. But what are you arguing anyway-that just because we haven't managed a certain attendance in the recent dire past, we should never aim to do so again? You might as well say that just because we're crap now we must accept permanent crapness and base all our future actions on being crap. And haven't I already answered the question about being on the march. Yes, I was on it. But that has nothing to do with anything at all. You remind me of those who say you have no right to complain about government decisions if you didn't vote. I am just interested in why you went on the march. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I am just interested in why you went on the march. Why? Should I have had a different reason than that of everybody else, or something? I went for the same reason that you presumably did-I was alarmed at the implications of the council's rejection of the BP redevelopment plan. I still don't see what it has to do with what's being discussed right now, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 The option to extend is disingenuous nonsense. The reason why a stadium with a small capacity is being proposed is because the intention is to, at best, emulate Scunthorpe. If you leave aside the fact that the number of minnow clubs flirting with the Championship has probably reached its limit already (Colchester, Scunthorpe, Southend), that means that any flirtation with the Championship of our own is designed to be brief. There will be no extension to any new ground when we are mired in the bottom three and are relegated at the end of our first season up (never mind that there will be no promotion anyway.) There will be no extension to any stadium at Broadway as long as the human race manages to survive. Aside from that, how many times does it have to be explained that almost no club builds a stadium based on its current average gate? And what do away fans have to do with anything? Presumably you want to see us play plenty of clubs with large away followings. Or are you subsconsciously sharing in the clubs' thinking that we will not be playing that many big clubs ever again (hence the small capacity)? I presume, also, you are too young to recall the days when we could, under the right circumstances, attract a lot more than 12000 home fans. All you are doing in basing everything on the crowds we've averaged in the utterly dismal recent past is sharing in the club's thinking that we are down in the lower divisions forever. Well repeated Corporal - absolutely bang on in my opinion. Also, let's not forget that we lose 5%(?) of the capacity straight off. So that's 11,400. 15k-16k would be much more fitting, if only to try and prevent the mental stigma of us being minnows undoubtedly forming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downender2 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 My opinion is the only one that counts. hope your happy together.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Whether or not you think 12K is not big enough i think the stats prove otherwise.... I explained on the other thread exactly why this does not stack up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) So comparisons with Wigan Athletic are meaningless. No they are not meaningless... They just show up your wrong about the suggested 12k capacity... Edited October 16, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) DW has sold the rugby league team and the focus of his ambition was always the football team 100% correct Hence why a lot of Wigan Rugby league fans hate him... Edited October 16, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) As ever, Bolton is a more valid comparison. Bolton is the better example as they area a much closer size club than Wigan (who really where tiny and look at the crowds they get now) Edited October 16, 2009 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Well repeated Corporal - absolutely bang on in my opinion. Also, let's not forget that we lose 5%(?) of the capacity straight off. So that's 11,400. 15k-16k would be much more fitting, if only to try and prevent the mental stigma of us being minnows undoubtedly forming. Agreed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F.O.B. Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 100% correct Hence why a lot of Wigan Rugby league fans hate him... Of course he's always backed the football team, the rugby element just allowed him to get his own way with the stadium etc. If it appeared he was looking after the interests of both teams nobody would complain. Now he has wht he wanted he's got rid of the preverbial 'mole ' off his back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsPete Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 No they are not meaningless... They are in the context that Slurms raised them ffs! They just show up your wrong about the suggested 12k capacity... Sorry, what did I say about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Agreed.. Best revise my opinion then hadn't I? The comment about avoiding the minnow stigma is pretty key to me. It hardly bodes well for attracting new fans, or the next owner for that matter. I think the cost of an extra 4000 seats could be justified in terms of club image (ambition?) alone. Unfortunatley it isn't me paying the bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIKI1234 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I explained on the other thread exactly why this does not stack up... I read your other thread. So you think we can get up to 19k in the championship? Now i would love to see this happen but I dont see how we would increase our current fan base x 4 with promotion to the Championship. That sort of crowd puts us on a par with Sheff Weds, Forest, West Brom and Leicester.... Not a chance unless a travelling army of 8000 turn up... How can we expect to get over 5K more than the likes of Preston, Palace, Watford and QPR I just dont see it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 diego you must remember the time when alan ball was their manager and he called oldham ground's a dump latics got there own back when they won 2-0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) I read your other thread. So you think we can get up to 19k in the championship? Now i would love to see this happen but I dont see how we would increase our current fan base x 4 with promotion to the Championship. That sort of crowd puts us on a par with Sheff Weds, Forest, West Brom and Leicester.... Not a chance unless a travelling army of 8000 turn up... How can we expect to get over 5K more than the likes of Preston, Palace, Watford and QPR I just dont see it... Nobody claims that we'd get an average of 19000 by simply gaining promotion. The reason a club has a decent-size capacity is so that crowds like that can be accommodated when necessary. For example, when Latics were topping the second-tier and having decent cup runs. Or one-off games such as City or the occasional big cup-tie. There is no reason why, having firmly established the club in the Championship, we couldn't manage an average in excess of 12000. After all, we've had such an average many times in the past. Sadly, the proposed capacity for Failsworth indicates that the club believes that those days are gone. Forever. Edited October 16, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jw_oldh857 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 corp a club our size wont fill a 16k seater ground never have never will just be happy with a club to support Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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