Matt

29 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

She me people in here needing a very large step ladder to get off high horses. Pious much?

I don't know, please explain.

1 minute ago, kowenicki said:

 

That is very generous of you. What was her excuse in all the other interviews over the last 6 months?  She is inept.  I'm not angry by the way.  

It's not generosity, it's my observation - which is at odds with those who'd rather jump all over the situation with scorn and insult.

You sound angry to me, maybe it's the way I perceive those who can't wait to have a crack at some unfortunate soul - over and over again.

2 minutes ago, HarryBosch said:

 

I'd imagine most of her constituents, like most of Jim McMahon's, would still vote the same way if she stepped down completely and they replaced her with Rolf Harris. 

I don't think that voter attitude is an exclusive trait of left leaning constituencies.

EDIT: Might get a better Labour MP though in the event of a by-election down the line?

1 minute ago, kowenicki said:

Diane Abbott "temporarily steps aside from the role of shadow HS for the duration of her illness....

...and that's the right thing to do. If her constituents feel that she's not up to the job, they'll vote likewise.

2 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

Cynical lie to avoid the media. Absolute disgrace.

I don't understand why you're so angry. When I watched her cock-up of an interview the other day I honestly thought that she was very poorly, and not in the frame of mind to operate as an MP or currently a candidate.

19 minutes ago, HarryBosch said:

 

Lefties

Nice. Well, I'm not as left as you think I am - there are some great policies on all sides. It's a real shame that the main driving force in political debate these days is slander and other malicious statements. I think Parliament has forgotten what Westminster is for.

9 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

 

You don't think that many labour NP's had the same upbringing and opportunities as Tory MP's ?? Really? 

 

I think the obvious example of liberal elite in the Labour Party right now is Thornberry. Corbyn himself was a long way from a tough working class upbringing.  Thornberry is classic liberal elite, she suffers from cognitive dissonance in that she vicerally hates the people she pretends to save with her false consciousness. 

 

 

I think he's getting at the fact you've previously alluded to the fact that you view top politicians with equal disdain in their incompetence, however you only discredit the liberal elite - not the political elite as a whole. I think we all agree that at the sharp end of politics, the MP's that come from collieries in Derbyshire are thin on the ground - they're more LSE these days.

12 hours ago, HarryBosch said:

Then again, you lot still seem to be continuing to give them a free pass on all that.....

Nicely edited - 'You lot'? Please expand, I'm dying to find something out about me that even I don't know about.

7 hours ago, 24hoursfromtulsehill said:

My idea with the missus - the one she really didn't appreciate - was to use association, however loose, as a pretext for arrest. Person A has met person B, who has met person C, who was a terrorist. Person A gets nicked. All the way through from A to Z. 

I'm thinking that if we hole up innocent people in with known targets it'll create more of a problem, and there have been innocent people (maybe that's a stretch - let's say, people who are less of a threat, like the cook) locked up that have later been released. Whilst incarcerated they've been exposed to some of the most evil people on the planet.

With the 'Kevin Bacon' policy of monitoring and arrest you suggest, the above issue would undoubtedly happen.

The alternative at the moment is a massive amount of resource is used to monitor our existing threats, deport the high level threat, stop more threats coming back into the country, and pull the online big players into line - make it difficult to access their material. It's impossible to shut down everything, but start at the top with Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, and work our way down. Reduce the exposure. EDIT: ...and that goes for everything not only al Muhajiroun and so-on, it means Stormfront, Column 88, C18. Blood and Honour etc.

35 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

Corbyn was against the British government banning people returning from Syria when they had been out there to collude or mix with ISIS. He though it was a bizarre decision to try and ban their return. 

Not quite - I think the context in which he said it was highlighting the complexity of the Syrian conflict, British people are fighting alongside the Free Syrian Army and Rojava who are terrorists to Assad and Putin, yet they fight Daesh.

Just now, HarryBosch said:

 

I'd like to think we would bear that in mind when composing a new, but similar strategy....

Good idea, X-Ray wasn't exactly a roaring success.

Just now, HarryBosch said:

 

I for one couldn't give a fuck about that - innocent human lives are the priority.....

Yeah, you're right - all those released from Gitmo wrote a postcard home then skipped to the airport.

45 minutes ago, 24hoursfromtulsehill said:

Sorry for not following this thread today. I had an argument with Mrs 24 last night, which will cost me. 

 

Basically I'm in favour of some sort of round-up-and-shakedown of the watchlist people. She's against and says the police and security service are understaffed anyway.

 

I just reckon the strategy of watching and waiting for he chain to appear hasn't worked or isn't working. 

Whatever the 'round-up' entails, we need to be certain that we don't take steps that could well have the effect of hardening their attitudes and the possibility of giving them a persecution complex on top of their other shitballs ideas.

3 hours ago, View Of Golden Gate said:

Then Westminster was attacked, no change, then Manchester, no change, now enough is enough. Is that what it takes Mrs May? 3 attacks, multiple deaths of innocent men, women and children before you actually seemingly do something. Say what you like about JC, many do, and to be fair I totally understand the difference of opinions on this. I lean towards his way of thinking, in many cases, I do find myself torn on this, but May was in charge. She has had seven years to do something, and it takes all this before she decides its time.

May's been talking big on extremism for ages, however in balance, after 7/7 Blair said that the rules of the game had changed and enough is enough.

'He promised a range of powers to deal not just with violence extremism, but those he said provided it with an ideological breeding ground.

His government ultimately found some of the measures legally too difficult to implement.'

12 hours ago, mikeroyboy said:

 

Perhaps we should both be prepared learn something.

 

If the previous debate is anything to go by, I doubt I'll get the opportunity.

On 02/06/2017 at 10:00 AM, rummytheowl said:

May's manifesto outlines that the independent Serious Fraud Office will come under political control by being swallowed up by the National Crime Agency. The loss of independence is made worse because of Government connections to the most corrupt-prone industries. Liam Fox is involved with seven defence sector companies, and Shell. It kind of opens up a cloak-and-dagger approach to trade with a Government which is desperate to trade with any cunt post Brexit.

I picked up something else which is related to this, UK Exports Finance. In the 2017 Conservative Manifesto it also indicates that the Government, if elected, will 'put UK Export Finance, which ensures that no viable UK export fails for lack of finance or insurance, at the heart of the UK’s trade promotion proposition'. On the face of it this sounds like the right thing to do, what with Brexit n'all - however, over the years Richard Brooks' investigative journalism uncovered a 'civil equipment' scandal that will almost certainly be the bedrock to May's Great British world market vanguard. Fucking bent from top to bottom. Accepting and turning a blind eye to corruption and bribery, and another instance of the independent Serious Fraud Office being ignored.

Here's the podcast, there's also a nice little article about how forensics was privatized, taking the study out of the hands of independents all in the name of making it look like 'we're privatizing and saving money' - then only to become corrupt and inaccurate to the point where there maybe incarcerations based on the bad data this service now provides. The shocking thing now is that the Police want to create the independent Forensic Science Service again, which means the privatization was a nonsense and cost millions.

2 hours ago, mikeroyboy said:

 

Never heard of them.

Perhaps you should.

11 hours ago, mikeroyboy said:

The nuclear option hasn't been used again because of the shocking devastation it caused. But millions have still blown up by more 'civilized' munitions in the last 70 odd years. Ashes or bits - is there an acceptable difference?

I was referring to an argument in the terms of a reason or set of reasons given in support of a viewpoint. I just indicated that It was a really poor comparison which had little meaning. I'm not sure what your point is now - we could pore over Sun Tzu and von Clausewitz all day.

39 minutes ago, mikeroyboy said:

Meanwhile, global road traffic deaths are running at circa 1.3 million a year, with injuries and disabilities 20-50 million.

 

We don't see many ban the car protests.

We don't see them because it's a ridiculous argument. The car has a sole purpose, carrying folk about - not warning a far East despot to stop puffing up his chest; whereas the nuclear weapons sole purpose is to reduce things to ash - not take the kids to school.

44 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

Sigh. Those people didn't want a nuclear holocaust.. obviously. It was a question of his pacifism.

It's just been on the news, the young girl expressed the typical pacifist line - which is fine if everybody thought like that. I agree, nobody wants to engage in nuclear war, anyone who lived through Bay of Pigs and the 80's would understand that - however the UK isn't much of a player in these matters as we're not a Nuclear Triad country, we still have to position nuclear elements before we engage. In summary, we've got them - but they're as much use as tits on a fish.

Just now, kowenicki said:

anyone checking that table I just posted.  is  it wrong?

I can't see the sources at the bottom, white on a green background and the size of fucking nonsense - plus my eyes are shagged.

One thing I do know is that things like that graph are created for a purpose, and it often omits data that may paint a very different picture. Not saying that one does 'cos I can't fucken read it.

16 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

I see the new champion of the left...

For heavens sake.

17 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

Fucking hypocrites all of them. 

That's something we can agree on. Evening Standard bemoans May's energy price cap or price controls claiming that the Government are interfering with the markets - however the new ed George Osbourne is also in the employ of BlackRock and on a salary of around 650k per annum. BlackRock are the biggest shareholder of Centrica...

Boris Johnson has had one meeting with an external organisation to discuss 'Syria' - Aymaan Asfari, who also donated £650k to the Conservatives for the last 6 years or so. His wife has also donated a substantial amount the Conservatives. Asfari's firm Petrofac is being scrutinised by the SFO (talk about this later) for fraud and corruption, they are also in partnership with Unaoil (corruption, bribery) and they've paid a massive amount of money to Assad to work in Syria. Johnson's FO predecessor Hammond also had 'one external meeting' with Asfari.

May's manifesto outlines that the independent Serious Fraud Office will come under political control by being swallowed up by the National Crime Agency. The loss of independence is made worse because of Government connections to the most corrupt-prone industries. Liam Fox is involved with seven defence sector companies, and Shell. It kind of opens up a cloak-and-dagger approach to trade with a Government which is desperate to trade with any cunt post Brexit.

4 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

 

I almost certainly come from a poorer background than everyone here too.  Birds custard for tea and hiding from the rent man behind the sofa.   

 

Some of us strive, some of us moan and demand we are funded to stay where we are.  The left prefer the latter, keeps their support strong. 

All we had was a hole in the ground...

7 hours ago, blueatheart said:

I'll criticise people for their choices but they should be helped and society and government can and are doing that.

 

To take Harry's point further, what would have happened to them in the 1960s, 1920s or 1860s?

As I said earlier we've moved on, it matters what happens now - and you'd think we'd learn. I dunno, just because it is more difficult to exploit vulnerable people doesn't mean we're lucky in terms of prosperity. This thread alone only acts to reinforce the notion that as a society, we're fucked.

38 minutes ago, blueatheart said:

Tell that to hungry orphans in Africa, women in Saudi Arabia, Christians in Syria, Haiti, Chile, North Korea... the list is endless.

 

The fact we can squabble over a penny here or there on income tax, the adequacy and amount of public handouts and even 67p on a fucking school meal means that, in the context of a massive number of people across the globe TODAY, we are very very very VERY, damned lucky.

Yeah, and I'll print that off and take it down to Petrus and we'll all have a laugh about it.

11 minutes ago, kowenicki said:

 

Jesus. Wouldn't let you anywhere near my company... and yes I have one.  Hyperbole and lies... that's the left for you. 

I'm sure I'll say this again, those aren't traits exclusive to the left of politics.