jsslatic Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) ...an anarchist socialist society where all the banks are burnt down and there is no climate change. Anyone know any good protests? Commie b*****ds. Edited April 1, 2009 by jsslatic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 ...an anarchist socialist society where all the banks are burnt down and there is no climate change. Anyone know any good protests? Commie b*****ds. If they are going to smash up a bank, could they at least please pick one where my beer won’t be taxed to fix the windows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Good Lord JSS - you're worse than Ste!!! They're just puppets. 99% don't know why they're there beyond the chance for a rumble. It's like complaining about Football fans because a bunch of scally dossers use it as an excuse to beat the piss out of each other and brag about it on the internet. And If you will look right, to China, you'll find that socialism is not doing too bad in all of this. It's certainly not perfect but it's better than what we have right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) China is ''better than what we have right now.'' That is a matter of opinion. I am interested to hear why you think this Edited April 1, 2009 by Ackey Deleted your two other posts and corrected your formatting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 That is a matter of opinion. I am interested to hear why you think this Despite their significant, and I know they exist, shortfalls, but one example is that their economy is significantly more stable than ours. They will suffer like the rest of us, but have most of the power at G20. They are currently pushing for the US$ to be replaced as the worlds dominant currency and are in a strong position with regards to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Despite their significant, and I know they exist, shortfalls, but one example is that their economy is significantly more stable than ours. They will suffer like the rest of us, but have most of the power at G20. They are currently pushing for the US$ to be replaced as the worlds dominant currency and are in a strong position with regards to this. I will bow to your superior knowledge on the economy. I sort of look at it from a 'do they have nice life' perspective. There are a lot of people who are certainly living a nice life in China at the moment, but many many more who aren't. Education and Healthcare services are not available to many. Pollution is a very bad. Corruption is rife. Wages for many are low. That said, I'm sure this could apply to some 'Western, Capatilist' nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Despite their significant, and I know they exist, shortfalls, but one example is that their economy is significantly more stable than ours. They will suffer like the rest of us, but have most of the power at G20. They are currently pushing for the US$ to be replaced as the worlds dominant currency and are in a strong position with regards to this. I don't actually think any of this is correct Mr Ack. Their economy isn't stable - it is entirely based on exporting to the West, and we aren't buying. Uncounted millions of the people who were bringing the bread home to their extended families by sending it back from wherever the money was are suddenly out of a job. The Chinese labour market has been a pretty wild thing for years (I recall from my Consumer Electronics days that we knew jnot to expect many DVD players for a quarter of the year as half of the factory workers would not come back to the factory after New Year off as they heard about better positions when back home) but now there will be tens of millions heading home trying to live off the scraps of people they used to support. The position of strength the Chinese have underlies their weakness. They hold a huge fortune in dollars - so a weak dollar destroys their only remaining hand. They have invested hugely in securing resources around the globe just as these resource prices plummet - that's planning on a central scale as opposed to market purchasing. Of course their wealth hasn't been generated by socialism, but by a dirty mixture of private enterprise allied with bribery and corruption. Allied to this the socialist government has hoarded wealth to itself rather than allowing workers to spend it, so that there is little widespread internal prosperity and consumption, which is why they have few internal markets to fall back onto when the exports fail. In short, they have been giving us goods, are not sure now if we are going to pay for them, and the only people who have had a good time out of it are the Party bosses and the entrepreneurs who have paid them enough to keep out of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outoftheblue Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 China has developed far too quickly over the past 10 years, and wage demands are such that their economy is likely to go into a bigger freefall than any other of the worlds major players (Including Japan) very soon. I travelled extensively through China during the 90s when socialism was still strong, and found villages too frightened to question the regime to do anything but farm for their own existance. Nowadays I export a large amount to the new 'Capitalist' China, and find it to be more and more corrupt by the week, with seemingly a whole nation breaking every law they can to make a killing over their neighbour. Unsustainable wages and over-accumulation of resources required by Western nations have reduced commodity values and put China in a very precarious position. At one point, container loads of UK materials could be shipped to China for less than £30, as the Chinese needed the containers so badly to ship their goods out. Now the price has risen to four figure sums again as supply has swamped demand for Chinese goods. The economy has grown too fast, and as LL said, China has been left with a stash of US Dollars that aren't worth anything like their original value. Manufacturing is very slowly drifting back here from places like China and India as people realise their products are often shoddily made, and not much cheaper any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The position of strength the Chinese have underlies their weakness. They hold a huge fortune in dollars - so a weak dollar destroys their only remaining hand. I agree with several other parts of what you said, but this bit I don't. If the dollar is weak it's representitive... IE- the Pound is weak but me and you don't suddenly have more buying power, in fact those with money are more able to sustain their standards than you and I with limited capital. The Chinese are currently running hard with a proposal to change to an "international currency" which they have the power to get some way with. Like you say they have enough hard currency in dollars to build 'kin houses out of the stuff and if they are successful in moving G20 nations to back their plans they will be the major share holders in the new international currency. One of your other points. China is very, very poor in rural areas there's no doubting this. But these people live a reasonably self sustaining lifestyle. They grow/raise their own foods and sell what they can. Sure these sales will decline but their actual standard of living will remain much as it is now. Low, but stable. I love the factory/output stat - that one is very true and I actually saw it happening whilst I was out there. It's not just that they get other jobs, some simply can't be arsed to go back after the new year celebrations and as so many do it there's little the employer can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The UK has a GDP of $37,400 and China has a GDP of $6,100 per capita (though this difference may have lessened in the last few months), to say that the Chinese have it better than we over here, is doing the many millions who live far below the poverty line a disservice. Also BBC Report about Rural Farmer in China Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 The UK has a GDP of $37,400 and China has a GDP of $6,100 per capita (though this difference may have lessened in the last few months), to say that the Chinese have it better than we over here, is doing the many millions who live far below the poverty line a disservice. Also BBC Report about Rural Farmer in China Life in rural China is hard. I know. I've been. But they will be less affected by the economic down turn than someone who was making £16k here and can no longer get a job. In China they will continue to live at a sustainable, if difficult, level. In the UK the person may lose their home, struggle to find work and so forth. If you asked me which situation I'd rather be in, it would be the UK - I don't deny that - but I think that China is in the stronger position going forwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outoftheblue Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Life in rural China is hard. I know. I've been. But they will be less affected by the economic down turn than someone who was making £16k here and can no longer get a job. In China they will continue to live at a sustainable, if difficult, level. In the UK the person may lose their home, struggle to find work and so forth. If you asked me which situation I'd rather be in, it would be the UK - I don't deny that - but I think that China is in the stronger position going forwards. I understand what you're saying. I suppose it's like those long term on the dole people in the UK not being affected by the current economic crisis - they still get the same money (And prices have dropped), whilst the rural Chinese farmers are still self-sustaining and are only affected by bad crops. I suppose it's all relative to the lifestyle you've become accustomed to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 I understand what you're saying. I suppose it's like those long term on the dole people in the UK not being affected by the current economic crisis - they still get the same money (And prices have dropped), whilst the rural Chinese farmers are still self-sustaining and are only affected by bad crops. I suppose it's all relative to the lifestyle you've become accustomed to. I hadn't thought of the long-term dolies. Like you say for them life will remain the same too I guess. Longer lines once a fortnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outoftheblue Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Longer lines once a fortnight It's no wonder they're all rioting demonstrating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimsleftfoot Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Life in rural China is hard. I know. I've been. But they will be less affected by the economic down turn than someone who was making £16k here and can no longer get a job. In China they will continue to live at a sustainable, if difficult, level. In the UK the person may lose their home, struggle to find work and so forth. If you asked me which situation I'd rather be in, it would be the UK - I don't deny that - but I think that China is in the stronger position going forwards. In sustainable you mean that their impoverished lifestyle, without access to decent health, education or welfare systems will likely stay the same. If this is the case, then does it not serve to highlight how poor a nation China really is, that it cannot improve the lot of its people despite becoming relatively wealthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 In sustainable you mean that their impoverished lifestyle, without access to decent health, education or welfare systems will likely stay the same. If this is the case, then does it not serve to highlight how poor a nation China really is, that it cannot improve the lot of its people despite becoming relatively wealthy. I can assure you that people in China, rural or otherwise, are as healthy -if not healthier- than your average westerner. I met an 81 year old woman who could've out run our entire group, and she was by no means an exception. They don't have access to the medicine of the average hospital in the UK, true, but the lifestyles they lead make most of the things our hospitals contain unnecessary. If they break a leg they can't xray it, but they can fix it just as well as your average UK hospital can. Life there is not perfect. There is corruption (we have that too, on a much grander scale than people really know), however education for the poor is not as bad as you may think. Certainly some will be home schooled and never know the wonders of thermodynamics or computer programming. But they live in a rural environment, they have no use for these skills. They would however 'out farm' your average farmer in the west and their education system is becoming more formal and structured as time goes on. China is improving the lot of it's people. It's not doing it at break neck speed or with the flamboyance you might associate with the west but it is building safer buildings, implementing infrastructure developments and so forth. It's coming and when it does most of the westernworld will be in no place to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 But they live in a rural environment, they have no use for these skills. They would however 'out farm' your average farmer in the west and their education system is becoming more formal and structured as time goes on. That's plainly utter bollocks Ackey! The average Western farmer produces probably hundreds of times the amount of food a Chinese peasant farmer does! China is improving the lot of it's people. It's not doing it at break neck speed or with the flamboyance you might associate with the west but it is building safer buildings, implementing infrastructure developments and so forth. It's coming and when it does most of the westernworld will be in no place to compete. China's economic growth is happening because people can pay officials to leave them to it, and having done that they are remarkably free from state regulation. In that sense it is far closer to a free market system than the UK, where nearly half of national wealth is spent by the government and the rest is heavily influenced in it's use by regulation and control. Attributing their recent success to the planning of the government is completely the wrong way around. If the Chinese government were as powerful as ours is, they too would be stuck in a mire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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