Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I didn't say it was progress, YOU said it was a decline. You really are a repetitive, self-absorbed individual. You think facts are interchangeable with fiction and fail to use either in an effective way. In the latter part of the 90s we were a club in very serious decline, only saved by a fool with a lot of money that was quickly parted from him. We are now much more solid both financially, and on a football level than we were at the end of 2000/01 season when we finished 15th with gates of under 5000. Come on ghost, give it a proper go at putting a convincing, fact based point into the discussion, rather than this dull dishwater you're slopping out. Don't try and pretend that you're using facts when all you ever do is manipulate selected figures to prove the same point:that we are, against every piece of evidence, a financially stable club on the up. As with a number of others on here, I suppose such self-delusion is necessary to your psychological well being. All there is to say to what you write is to quote Mr Simon Corney, July 2009: 'The club is dying.' Now go and play with the other children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haribo_man Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I didn't say it was progress, YOU said it was a decline. You really are a repetitive, self-absorbed individual. You think facts are interchangeable with fiction and fail to use either in an effective way. In the latter part of the 90s we were a club in very serious decline, only saved by a fool with a lot of money that was quickly parted from him. We are now much more solid both financially, and on a football level than we were at the end of 2000/01 season when we finished 15th with gates of under 5000. Come on ghost, give it a proper go at putting a convincing, fact based point into the discussion, rather than this dull dishwater you're slopping out. Exactly. I would be much more satisfied if anything the Corp actually posted had some sumbstance behind it. If there was something constructive to read then that would be infinately better than the tin pot club, scaled down plans, constant decline stuff which is seen. I have no problems with posts of this nature if they have some credibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Exactly. I would be much more satisfied if anything the Corp actually posted had some sumbstance behind it. If there was something constructive to read then that would be infinately better than the tin pot club, scaled down plans, constant decline stuff which is seen. I have no problems with posts of this nature if they have some credibility It would help if you told me what sumbstance is. How many times do some of you have to be told that what I say regarding the future of the club is pure speculation based on what's hapened in the recent past and what limited evidence is put before us by the club? You are free to take it or leave it. All I ask is that you remember what I've said when it all comes true. What credibility attaches to the vaguely angry refutations of me, the naive assumptions and repeated examples of baseless wishful thinking in which your kind likes to indulge, may I ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Don't try and pretend that you're using facts when all you ever do is manipulate selected figures to prove the same point:that we are, against every piece of evidence, a financially stable club on the up. As with a number of others on here, I suppose such self-delusion is necessary to your psychological well being. All there is to say to what you write is to quote Mr Simon Corney, July 2009: 'The club is dying.' Now go and play with the other children. Yawn, at least I'm using figures, whether selected or not. 4 years of bottom half finishes vs 4 years of top 10? And in what way have I manipulated any of the figures I have quoted? I suggest that you are making things up again. And there's no need to worry about my "psychological well being", I'm fine thanks. I know the difference between decline and steady state. You might also note that Mr Corney makes his "dying" statements often when appealing for something. I can clearly see why he makes them, you obviously cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haribo_man Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 It would help if you told me what sumbstance is. How many times do some of you have to be told that what I say regarding the future of the club is pure speculation based on what's hapened in the recent past and what limited evidence is put before us by the club? You are free to take it or leave it. All I ask is that you remember what I've said when it all comes true. What credibility attaches to the vaguely angry refutations of me, the naive assumptions and repeated examples of baseless wishful thinking in which your kind likes to indulge, may I ask? Substance with an 'm' but deep down I think you knew what I meant. What kind is mine might I ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Yawn, at least I'm using figures, whether selected or not. 4 years of bottom half finishes vs 4 years of top 10? And in what way have I manipulated any of the figures I have quoted? I suggest that you are making things up again. And there's no need to worry about my "psychological well being", I'm fine thanks. I know the difference between decline and steady state. You might also note that Mr Corney makes his "dying" statements often when appealing for something. I can clearly see why he makes them, you obviously cannot. So now he tells himself that Corney is manipulating us for his own ends-even as, like so many others, he falls over himself to justify the manipulations. Personally I'm glad that this is only OWTB and not, say, Mussolini's Italy. All you ever do with your supposed facts is claim that the club's inability to expand the fanbase and get out of the division represents progress and stability. It hardly makes you Magnus Pyke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 What kind is mine might I ask? They're little and hairy, with little gleaming, darting eyes, and rush from one end of the cage to the other whenever a flash of movement attracts their attention. Alternatively, they graze in fields and on hillsides, and move with a cautious enthusiasm towards the gate whenever the farmer appears. Sometimes he fulfils their hopes by feeding them something, but these days it's full of recyled bits of their own kind and other poisons. But never mind: soon the lorries will come and take them away and all their troubles will be over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 So now he tells himself that Corney is manipulating us for his own ends-even as, like so many others, he falls over himself to justify the manipulations. Personally I'm glad that this is only OWTB and not, say, Mussolini's Italy. Are you playing to an audience or what ghost? "So now he tells himself" !! WTF, hilarious. Ladies and gentlemen I invite you to our tale of woe and failure. The kindly narrator of our tale is Corporal Jones, the wise sage who has seen kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall and fortells the future with a cunning degree of accuracy. Or a sad deluded twit. Game Over man, Game Over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haribo_man Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 They're little and hairy, with little gleaming, darting eyes, and rush from one end of the cage to the other whenever a flash of movement attracts their attention. Alternatively, they graze in fields and on hillsides, and move with a cautious enthusiasm towards the gate whenever the farmer appears. Sometimes he fulfils their hopes by feeding them something, but these days it's full of recyled bits of their own kind and other poisons. But never mind: soon the lorries will come and take them away and all their troubles will be over. ok then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTLEY Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I don't believe that we can attract significantly better players if the aim is to be a well run lower division club (they won't be needed.) The small capacity being proposed suggests to me that this is indeed the aim. After all, as it keeps having to be pointed out, until the demolition of the Lookers we were still occasionally able to attract more than 12000 to a game. Aside from the fact that players don't generally come to clubs primarily because they admire the stadiums, we know absolutely nothing about the design. It might be very nice. On the other hand it might be one of those cheap-looking, typically lower league boxes. My point about players coming to clubs with new/improved facilities is that they see a club on the up that is investing in moving forward. This might be a factor in their decision to join one club over another when other factors such as wages, commute etc are taken into account. It wasn't a factor in isolation that I believe would bring players to the club. Moreover people do tend to respond better when working(not just on matchday)in a better environment with better facilities. If and I grant it is a big IF is a starting point for a ground with potential to increase as the needs progress then I would the proposed stadium makes sense. 12,000 attendence every home game and issues with how to develop the ground to 16 or 20,000 capacity would be I suggest a nice problem for the club/TTA/owners at that time to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Are you playing to an audience or what ghost? "So now he tells himself" !! WTF, hilarious. Ladies and gentlemen I invite you to our tale of woe and failure. The kindly narrator of our tale is Corporal Jones, the wise sage who has seen kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall and fortells the future with a cunning degree of accuracy. Or a sad deluded twit. Game Over man, Game Over. Which would all be very well if it wasn't myself but you who'd predicted all the recent major events to happen at the club. For example, it wasn't me who was arguing till blue in the face that the proposed redevelopment of BP was still on the cards only days before we were told it wasn't. I was the one who'd been predicting it would all come to nothing for some time. Apart from that-you're right again, Magnus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 My point about players coming to clubs with new/improved facilities is that they see a club on the up that is investing in moving forward. This might be a factor in their decision to join one club over another when other factors such as wages, commute etc are taken into account. It wasn't a factor in isolation that I believe would bring players to the club. Moreover people do tend to respond better when working(not just on matchday)in a better environment with better facilities. If and I grant it is a big IF is a starting point for a ground with potential to increase as the needs progress then I would the proposed stadium makes sense. 12,000 attendence every home game and issues with how to develop the ground to 16 or 20,000 capacity would be I suggest a nice problem for the club/TTA/owners at that time to have. Once again though-there will be no need to expand the ground when, to start with, the proposed capacity suggests resignation to playing only lower division football. Think about it-if, pre-Lookers demolition, we were still getting the occasional crowd of over 12000, why the assumption that 12000 is all we'll ever need from now on? It can only be because behind that assumption is another one that says we won't be playing against many big clubs in future. A new, mall stadium suggests only a new small stadium unless accompanied by evidence of ambition. Footballers are not, on some levels, as stupid as may of them seem: they know what a ground capacity limited to 12000 represents in professional football. People may respond better to improved working conditions, but they don't usually turn mediocre talents into vastly better ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggy_oafc Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Which would all be very well if it wasn't myself but you who'd predicted all the recent major events to happen at the club. For example, it wasn't me who was arguing till blue in the face that the proposed redevelopment of BP was still on the cards only days before we were told it wasn't. I was the one who'd been predicting it would all come to nothing for some time. Apart from that-you're right again, Magnus. Corporal, I have to say when reading through these threads I find your comments generally the most compelling, I try my best to be optimistic but deep down I can't deny that you are articulating the thoughts I have, but try to ignore. However, what I want to know is, how do we achieve what you consider to be progress? You have said before that it isn't your job to supply that answer which is true, but to be as vocal as you are you must have some ideas as to how the club could move forward. Otherwise, surely you must accept that we are destined for mediocrity for no other reason than we simply do not have any money (and a small fan-base), or at least the kind of money to mount a serious promotion push with survival in the Championship a minimum expectation. I know our marketing is a joke (that we don't even have a small billboard stating who our next home game is against is beyond inept) but bar finding a generous tycoon what can we do? I genuinely respect your opinion and would like to here some suggestions, even if they're just fleeting thoughts. Cheers, doggy_oafc. Woof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OminousPoultry Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Once again though-there will be no need to expand the ground when, to start with, the proposed capacity suggests resignation to playing only lower division football. Think about it-if, pre-Lookers demolition, we were still getting the occasional crowd of over 12000, why the assumption that 12000 is all we'll ever need from now on? It can only be because behind that assumption is another one that says we won't be playing against many big clubs in future. A new, mall stadium suggests only a new small stadium unless accompanied by evidence of ambition. Footballers are not, on some levels, as stupid as may of them seem: they know what a ground capacity limited to 12000 represents in professional football. People may respond better to improved working conditions, but they don't usually turn mediocre talents into vastly better ones. Like you said - What credibility attaches (sic) to the the naive assumptions and repeated examples of baseless wishful thinking in which your kind likes to indulge? How do you know what a professional footballer understands? Yet again this is just drivel and opinion dressed up as fact and repeated on and on and on and on.... Rage against the machine. Absolutely pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTLEY Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Once again though-there will be no need to expand the ground when, to start with, the proposed capacity suggests resignation to playing only lower division football. Think about it-if, pre-Lookers demolition, we were still getting the occasional crowd of over 12000, why the assumption that 12000 is all we'll ever need from now on? It can only be because behind that assumption is another one that says we won't be playing against many big clubs in future. A new, mall stadium suggests only a new small stadium unless accompanied by evidence of ambition. Footballers are not, on some levels, as stupid as may of them seem: they know what a ground capacity limited to 12000 represents in professional football. People may respond better to improved working conditions, but they don't usually turn mediocre talents into vastly better ones. Again I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments and I don't know the financial implications of making the stadium 16,000 to start with and whether this will make a difference. Maybe its not limited ambition its just that the TTA can't raise the capital to make it a 16,000 seater facility. However I do believe that if the facilities are good then you tend to attract a better talent. A number of businesses relocate into new improved facilities as they believe that as well as increasing their visibility, enhancing their corporate image and the general view of their business from their potential and existing client base, it will also help attract the calibre of staff that they wish to recruit to help drive their business forward.I don't see why a football club is any different in this respect. Div 3 is a mediocre level of football, however I do believe that to attract players to this division that are capable of playing at a higher level then we need the facilities(and this doesn't mean size)and infrastructure to show that we have the ambition to play and stay at that level. A 12,000 all seater stadium doesn't in my opinion negate this so long as the facilities are upto scratch Lastly Environment can help the individuals within it perform to their best rather than being mentally and physically dragged down by decaying facilities. In the short term to help us on the road to improvement this may be the only way forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 (edited) Corporal, I have to say when reading through these threads I find your comments generally the most compelling, I try my best to be optimistic but deep down I can't deny that you are articulating the thoughts I have, but try to ignore. However, what I want to know is, how do we achieve what you consider to be progress? You have said before that it isn't your job to supply that answer which is true, but to be as vocal as you are you must have some ideas as to how the club could move forward. Otherwise, surely you must accept that we are destined for mediocrity for no other reason than we simply do not have any money (and a small fan-base), or at least the kind of money to mount a serious promotion push with survival in the Championship a minimum expectation. I know our marketing is a joke (that we don't even have a small billboard stating who our next home game is against is beyond inept) but bar finding a generous tycoon what can we do? I genuinely respect your opinion and would like to here some suggestions, even if they're just fleeting thoughts. Cheers, doggy_oafc. Woof. I don't accept that we have a particularly small fan base for a start. That's simply another one of the myths that those who continually make excuses for mediocrity like to peddle. While it is true that we are in a bad geographical position, so, too, are other clubs in towns close to big cities, yet not all of them lie down and accept their fate as minnows. The people of Oldham have shown plenty of times in the past that they are prepared to turn out in numbers when the club is doing something right. The difficulty the club has always had is in keeping their interest up and instilling them with belief. But it's the club, not the people of the town that's at fault. If those in charge at the time had been willing to either seek additional inevestment while we were flying high in the early nineties, or put the club up for sale, and, as a result we'd managed to stay up until the football boom really took off and the TV money and parachute payments had kicked in, we'd almost certainly have kept a substantial portion of the significantly expanded fanbase we had at the time. If we'd managed to have further success we'd almost certainly have expanded it yet more. As it went, it simply looked as if the club just gave up, no matter what the truth of matters behind the scenes; perception is what counts. The time really was ripe back then for poaching fans off City and United, and from elsewhere. Now, the sad thing is that people seem to think this can be done on the basis of a shiny new stadium alone (and one which is, at the moment, no more than theoretical.) As for the present, my own fear is that, in a similar way as the idea of staying in or around the PL (and lifting the club up a level in stature) was seen as a hopeless task, the club has given up on the idea of regaining lost ground, and that the kind of stadium being proposed reflects this. The club, to my mind, has adopted (or reverted to?) the same smalltime mentality that many hardcore fans seem to have. This will only result in further decline if it is the case, as the wider town, including many casual and former regular supporters, has already shown that it isn't interested in a club without ambition. Regarding what can be done, I have no idea. Not all clubs that transform themselves do it under the tutelage of a 'sugar daddy', but through more sustainable methods that are sufficient to get them moving up the divisions-and their hands on the financial rewards that comes with it. Getting the kind of investment that can kickstart a club is another matter, but one thing is certain: deepening an obvious smalltime mentality will not attract significant investment. Edited August 20, 2009 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Like you said - What credibility attaches (sic) to the the naive assumptions and repeated examples of baseless wishful thinking in which your kind likes to indulge? How do you know what a professional footballer understands? Yet again this is just drivel and opinion dressed up as fact and repeated on and on and on and on.... Rage against the machine. Absolutely pointless. How many times do I have to say it: yes, it is opinion and not fact. However, often what I've said is coming has turned out to be true. What kind of moron is it that can't comprehend a few lines on a message board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Again I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments and I don't know the financial implications of making the stadium 16,000 to start with and whether this will make a difference. Maybe its not limited ambition its just that the TTA can't raise the capital to make it a 16,000 seater facility. Whatever the reason, 12000 screams smalltime. Furthermore, it will cost even more to build the extra seats when, at some point in the future, the clubs decides to (cough) expand the stadium (cough, cough.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
footy68 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 How many times do I have to say it: yes, it is opinion and not fact. However, often what I've said is coming has turned out to be true. What kind of moron is it that can't comprehend a few lines on a message board? You mean like Christmas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 However I do believe that if the facilities are good then you tend to attract a better talent. A number of businesses relocate into new improved facilities as they believe that as well as increasing their visibility, enhancing their corporate image and the general view of their business from their potential and existing client base, it will also help attract the calibre of staff that they wish to recruit to help drive their business forward.I don't see why a football club is any different in this respect. Div 3 is a mediocre level of football, however I do believe that to attract players to this division that are capable of playing at a higher level then we need the facilities(and this doesn't mean size)and infrastructure to show that we have the ambition to play and stay at that level. A 12,000 all seater stadium doesn't in my opinion negate this so long as the facilities are upto scratch Lastly Environment can help the individuals within it perform to their best rather than being mentally and physically dragged down by decaying facilities. In the short term to help us on the road to improvement this may be the only way forward. The only problem with the rest of what you say is that, except in some behind the scenes aspects, a football club is not like any other business. Football is governed by emotion and irrationality. You can have all the shiny facilities you want, but unless they're tied to a genuine desire to climb the divisions, we will not attract the calibre of player capable of helping us do it. This will particularly be the case if the facilities are geared towards a stable existence at this level, with anything else seen as a bonus. As I said, better facilities might help the mediocre to perform better, but they don't mean that the mediocre aren't mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 You mean like Christmas? No-as said above, I was probably the first on here to give voice to the opinion that the economic crisis would put paid to the BP redevelopment plan. I was also the first to predict that a downscaled substitute would be proposed and that a groundshare would be mooted. That's if you leave aside all that I've said would happen to the so-called promotion charges over the course of the past few years. It gives me no joy to be a prophet, however. Some have greatness thrust upon them. Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 No-as said above, I was probably the first on here to give voice to the opinion that the economic crisis would put paid to the BP redevelopment plan. I was also the first to predict that a downscaled substitute would be proposed and that a groundshare would be mooted. That's if you leave aside all that I've said would happen to the so-called promotion charges over the course of the past few years. It gives me no joy to be a prophet, however. Some have greatness thrust upon them. Etc. Hmmm. I'd love to see those posts. I think maybe you just "think" you posted all those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Think of all the 'positives' you want, Mr Credulous. The fact remains that it will (if it actually gets built and doesn't go the way of all the other nonsense we've been fed about stadiums over the years) it will be a modern stadium which is, as the proposed capacity suggests, a stadium designed for permanent lower division football. it has been stated as fact..that it will be built fully expandable for future development. hardly something which would go along your lines of permanant lower division football. once again you have sucessfully hijacked another thread with the mind numbing drivel you perpetually beat from your one song drum no wonder people are getting fed up with this board.well done crp,way to go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 once again you have sucessfully hijacked another thread with the mind numbing drivel you perpetually beat from your one song drum no wonder people are getting fed up with this board.well done crp,way to go... CJ rarely posts, so if people are getting fed up of this board I strongly suspect it's for other reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EASTLEY Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 The only problem with the rest of what you say is that, except in some behind the scenes aspects, a football club is not like any other business. Football is governed by emotion and irrationality. You can have all the shiny facilities you want, but unless they're tied to a genuine desire to climb the divisions, we will not attract the calibre of player capable of helping us do it. This will particularly be the case if the facilities are geared towards a stable existence at this level, with anything else seen as a bonus. As I said, better facilities might help the mediocre to perform better, but they don't mean that the mediocre aren't mediocre. To be fair a number of the points you make stand up to scrutiny particularly when you refer to what could have been done in the premier league and the years immediately following this. I know there were some grand plans and actually don't think the club expected to be knowcked back on the Clayton fields expansion and had no plan b to raise the necessary finance to compete at that level. To be fair when I grew up watching latics we were a Div 2 team that tended to struggle for much of the season but somehow end up in mid-table by the end of it. Maybe down to indoctrination this is where I see our spiritual home. At the moment the premier league seems a step to far. I also think that that league and all the similar divisions Europe wide will eventually evolve/burn themselves out as the possibilities of a G14 European League get closer by the season. Where national football goes from there I'm not sure, it depends on the ability of the remainder to deliver a product that stands up to the scrutiny of the fickle fan and whether he will follow his local side or feels more connected with English representitives in a federal league. Maybe this confirms me as small time in attitude(I am not saying this was directed at me btw)but old money Div 2 is where I see us. I don't dispute that 12,000 is on the small side and to be fair am not close enough to the project or details to know whether that could be expanded now as with some luck maybe and good management we could get a league higher. We know League 1 is mediocre so you would hope eventually we could move out of it in the right direction. Regarding the facilities, I think you would be surprised at the number of players that do care about this, Certainly a number of the guys I know talk about this, though the quality of the pitch and training facilities tend to be in my experience more important than the size of the changing rooms or whether there are power showers. Also having played a little, admittedly at lower levels I can say from my experience, the adrenalin that flows when running out somewhere like Rushden or Burton rather Bromsgrove or Chasetown can make a big difference to your performance on the day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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