Ackey Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 BB80's comment in the Abbott and Kennedy Thread reminded me of a point I made on Podcast #2 that I'd wanted to raise out here in the real world (sic). What type of squad would you prefer to have next season? 1. Large squad of cheap players. As BB80 mentioned, League2 holds a vast array of players who might be a bit of a gamble, but on a much smaller wage and as a result you can sign an extra 5-6 players - providing a better coverage for injuries and suspensions and potentially unearthing a gem. 2. Small squad of expensive players. A small squad of seasoned Pro's potentially from the Championship coming to the end of their careers or who've had some injuries and need a fresh start - making the risk of injuries greater but the risk of them being totally duff greater (is this point even true?). 3. A even mix. Obviously the instinct is to always go for balance, but this doesn't just balance the advantages it balances the disadvantages too. For example if you lose the 4 seasoned players your squad relies on you then have small squad of cheap players. All squads can contain 'a couple' of the other type - you can obviously get a single old Pro defender in a squad of youth... it's a generalised example to see what type of squad 'overall' they'd like to see. If anyone has a squad type not mentioned then shout it out and don't just vote - debate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) BB80's comment in the Abbott and Kennedy Thread reminded me of a point I made on Podcast #2 that I'd wanted to raise out here in the real world (sic). What type of squad would you prefer to have next season? 1. Large squad of cheap players. As BB80 mentioned, League2 holds a vast array of players who might be a bit of a gamble, but on a much smaller wage and as a result you can sign an extra 5-6 players - providing a better coverage for injuries and suspensions and potentially unearthing a gem. 2. Small squad of expensive players. A small squad of seasoned Pro's potentially from the Championship coming to the end of their careers or who've had some injuries and need a fresh start - making the risk of injuries greater but the risk of them being totally duff greater (is this point even true?). 3. A even mix. Obviously the instinct is to always go for balance, but this doesn't just balance the advantages it balances the disadvantages too. For example if you lose the 4 seasoned players your squad relies on you then have small squad of cheap players. All squads can contain 'a couple' of the other type - you can obviously get a single old Pro defender in a squad of youth... it's a generalised example to see what type of squad 'overall' they'd like to see. If anyone has a squad type not mentioned then shout it out and don't just vote - debate! I was inclined to go for 'even mix' but as you rightly point out if you go for that option and the injuries bite (as they did in 07/08) then you are left with the cheap/youth option. So I've gone for the large squad of cheap players. It's worked time and again in this league and providing they are hungry and have the desire for the shirt then that will do for me. A cheaper squad should give greater manoeverability for mid-season changes too, it is sometimes easier to move on or cheaper to pay off your Woods, Rocastles and Edwards's than say your more expensive players that are happy to sit on their contracts - Kalala comes immediately to mind and especially when the club are paying a hotel bill for TWO years! And let's face it, every transfer is not a success. The small expensive squad option failed miserably under Ronnie Moore in the fact that we were aiming for the play offs that year, but with the odd change here and there Shez managed to get the majority of Ronnie's first choice 11 into the Play Offs the year after which suggests that allowed to modify his squad himself Ronald may well have done the same. DP is performing the same open heart surgery Ronnie did in the summer of '05 when we moved on a large part of the squad. I'm sure given the fact DP has released so many players means that the budget will be again a decent one - providing the owners allow wages to paid at the same sort of level Hughes, Lidds, Gregan, Allott and Crossley were earning - that's a fair wedge of any budget so providing we DP is as good at wheeling and dealing that we think he is there may be a couple of 'WOW' signings. TTA have made provision when it has been needed and I see this season as being no different despite what has been perceived publicly. 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charlton, Greegs, Clarke 07/08 Davies, Hughes, Crossley 08/09 Lee, Ormerod, Byfield, Windass 09/10 ??? Like it or lump it all the above either came for fees or earned very good wages/bonus packages Edited May 20, 2009 by oafcprozac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackey Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 ...there may be a couple of 'WOW' signings... 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charleton, Greegs, Clarke 07/08 Davies, Hughes, Crossley 08/09 Lee, Ormerod, Byfield, Windass 09/10 ??? I think you've worded it much better than I could. I think a larger squad of youthful players with one or two WOW's (as you also say, this is 'on paper' as you never know what may come of them) and we may have a successful season. Interesting to see that no one is really keen on the idea of a smaller squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Kalala comes immediately to mind and especially when the club are paying a hotel bill for TWO years! And let's face it, every transfer is not a success. This has to be a myth....because you can't stay at the Hilton for two years. Whilst I've been an advocate of 'quality veterans' I am coming round to the idea of a young squad which grows together, with a splash of experienced quality of course. Ideally I'd like a smallish squad of quality which isn't necessarily old. For example the likes of Wellens and Beckett, and even Gregan and Liddell at the time of their signings. I don't see how lots of cheap players not playing games can get you out of the division - you want as much money (quality) on the pitch as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 This has to be a myth....because you can't stay at the Hilton for two years. Whilst I've been an advocate of 'quality veterans' I am coming round to the idea of a young squad which grows together, with a splash of experienced quality of course. Ideally I'd like a smallish squad of quality which isn't necessarily old. For example the likes of Wellens and Beckett, and even Gregan and Liddell at the time of their signings. I don't see how lots of cheap players not playing games can get you out of the division - you want as much money (quality) on the pitch as possible. Can't you? Ask the trust on Thursday night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Can't you? Ask the trust on Thursday night! Not by policy no. If Latics went to the trouble of convincing Hilton Hotels to break their policy, for Kalala, then shame on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daznathe Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 i too was tempted to go for the even mix. but as i am of the opinion that our youth system provides players of league one calibre, i would assemble a smaller squad of expensive players, and lean on the youth system when required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (oafcprozac @ May 20 2009, 10:05 AM) ...there may be a couple of 'WOW' signings... 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charleton, Greegs, Clarke 07/08 Davies, Hughes, Crossley 08/09 Lee, Ormerod, Byfield, Windass 09/10 ??? I think you've worded it much better than I could. I think a larger squad of youthful players with one or two WOW's (as you also say, this is 'on paper' as you never know what may come of them) and we may have a successful season. Interesting to see that no one is really keen on the idea of a smaller squad. I also was hopeing there might be the odd wow signing, though I would argue about Porter being a wow signign at the time. Eeeryone was saying what a waste of money, though good many of us weere proved wrong. That said, how many of those wow signings have proved to be lemons? It looks like Shez got more depsreate as he chased a more proven striker. 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charlton, Greegs, Clarke 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charlton, Greegs, Clarke 07/08 Davies, Hughes, Crossley 08/09 Lee, Ormerod, Byfield , Windass 09/10 ??? Edited May 20, 2009 by singe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) I also was hopeing there might be the odd wow signing, though I would argue about Porter being a wow signign at the time. Eeeryone was saying what a waste of money, though good many of us weere proved wrong. That said, how many of those wow signings have proved to be lemons? It looks like Shez got more depsreate as he chased a more proven striker. 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charlton, Greegs, Clarke 04/05 Beckett 05/06 Beckett, Porter, Liddell 06/07 Charlton, Greegs, Clarke 07/08 Davies, Hughes, Crossley 08/09 Lee, Ormerod, Byfield , Windass 09/10 ??? The point with Porter I was trying to make was his fee mate. Of course we were all a little indifferent as to why Ronnie had chased him so hard, all was revealed after Ronnie had left. The one thing Ronnie could spot , was a striker. Edited May 20, 2009 by oafcprozac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singe Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Thpoint with Porter I was trying to make was his fee mate. Of course we were all a little different as to why Ronnie had chased him so hard, all was revealed after Ronnie had left. The one thing Ronnie could spot , was a striker. Ah prozac, I get where you are coming from now. I suppose at the time, I recall it not being unusual to pay a fee, even albeit a token one, so not a spectaular one. I suppose I thought of him as "one for the future" ! As you say good that he turned out as he did. Good point about Shez too. He inherited some good strikers but once thy had gone, the cupboard was bare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 What we need is a new Roger Palmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfOAFC Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 What we need is a new Roger Palmer he may be our record goalscorer but did he really contribute that much to our cup runs and promotion??? [dons helmet ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Nah but he was part of the team that became our most succesful (the Cantona effect) And he had the best chant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wozz_oafc Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I would like the squad to have 2 players in every position from the start of the season. With manager having enough faith to play the back up player if needed or to switch them around and give them both a chance. Therefore removing the need to use the short term loan system unless its an emergency. Even if the team isnt pushing for promotion, I would like to see the manager stick by the players he has assembled during the summer. Whether these players are made up of experienced pros, lower league gambles, our youngsters or even a couple of long term loanies doesnt really bothered me, I would just like a settled squad, with competition for each starting place (oh and a reserve team to keep those out of the side match fit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 A small fit squad has got to be the way forward - ask any Burnley fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekWilson_1968 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 he may be our record goalscorer but did he really contribute that much to our cup runs and promotion??? [dons helmet ] Seriously, does the fact that he often played in a fairly ordinary (or less than ordinary) team not make the magnitude of his career achievement an even greater thing? I can't believe I have read a comment that so undermines the status of our greatest ever player - and if you are fishing I would be ashamed to do so in such a manner. Also, if I remember correctly, didn't he bag the second equaliser for us at Moan Road against United in the FAC Semi? Not contributed my arse, you need slapping with a wet haddock. As for the squad - not particularly bothered which way Penney goes as long as he gets in players that are willing to put in a shift more often than not. I will though be disappointed if we don't sign anybody better than Danny 'World beater and better than Wellens' Whittaker. Did Palmer contribute? I'm still gobsmacked! Derek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorrro Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 We could do with eleven Chris Taylors. Eh Derek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudemedic Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Having a squad of any size is about using it. I'd like to see a mix of experienced players and youngsters (bearing in mind some of our youngsters have now played 100 games for the club). Certain people we have let go need replacing and top of that list for me is Crossley- you need two goalies plus a back up in football and Crossley also provided a coaching role- he was a bit expensive yes but we got two things out of him for his one salary. How many games did Dale Stephens feature on either the bench or play in- yes he's one for the future but surely his future would be better with playing a bit more regularly at somewhere like Bury last season. Kieron Lee is another who we wasted he was an able backup but he's not that old and I think he might make a few teams in this divisions first teams yet he hardly played. Having only seen Brooke play once (in a youth game) I can't really comment on him too much but he is another who if we aren't careful we could waste- there is no point in a youngster like Brooke sitting on the bench but not likely to get on (i.e. there's a least one forward in front of him) or sitting in the stand. I'm not sure about the standard of our reserve team football but I think Brooke could benefit from a spell out on loan at a good conference side or even someone in League 1- as they are likely to play him. (Wolfy could have done with this a few years ago too). We normally have at least one youth team player in each position who gets a contract they would be better served sitting on the bench and very rarely getting on than what we had last year with pros doing the same job. A lot of teams have ended up getting promoted from our division recently with youngsters on loan from Premiership sides in their teams- Brandy at Swansea and Hobbs at Leicster both spring to mind. We could do far worse than trying this tatic- much better than the Windass loan signing in my opinion- one option might be Evans's brother from United or Etuhu from City. We need some experience in our team for next season- but it has to be the right sort of experience. Last season with the absence of reserve games to keep the squad fit we had far too big a squad- especially when you consider Shez's penchant for bringing in people on loan. The season before we had a much more balanced squad but we struggled with injuries and so had to play the likes of Smalley/Alessandra before or much more than we wanted to. That was no bad thing though for this season as I don't think Lewis and Smalley would be at the level they are now without that experience. Some good league 2 players in their mid-late 20's would be a good thing as well- as they have a lot of the experience needed plus they are not likely to loose their fitness and I think sometimes we were missing that sort of in between player last year. So in summary I'd like to see a good mix of players in an average sized squad (maybe about the same sort of size as last year's size but with reserve team games- or much smaller without them). We have the youngsters, we need some more experience, and possibly someone else's quality youngsters, hopefully that experience won't be all players in their 30s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafcprozac Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 he may be our record goalscorer but did he really contribute that much to our cup runs and promotion??? [dons helmet ] Roger Palmer scored 20 goals in 89/90 and wasn't even a regular starter for most of the season (including goals which secured replays against Everton and Manchester United) He scored 10 goals in 90/91 typically important strikes included 4 in 6 days to help secure wins against Plymouth and Wolves, vital winners at home to WBA and away a Boro and an important equaliser away at Swindon. Is that enough of an impact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfOAFC Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 (edited) Seriously, does the fact that he often played in a fairly ordinary (or less than ordinary) team not make the magnitude of his career achievement an even greater thing? I can't believe I have read a comment that so undermines the status of our greatest ever player - and if you are fishing I would be ashamed to do so in such a manner. Also, if I remember correctly, didn't he bag the second equaliser for us at Moan Road against United in the FAC Semi? Not contributed my arse, you need slapping with a wet haddock. As for the squad - not particularly bothered which way Penney goes as long as he gets in players that are willing to put in a shift more often than not. I will though be disappointed if we don't sign anybody better than Danny 'World beater and better than Wellens' Whittaker. Did Palmer contribute? I'm still gobsmacked! Derek. all I'm trying to say is, for me, he cemented his legend status in the years before we found success. although certainly more than a "bit part player" from 89 to 91, many other players were far more important to that success. the comment was that we "need a new Roger Palmer" - while I certainly wouldn't say no to that I'd rather us sign a new Denis Irwin, Earl Barrett, Paul Warhurst, Nick Henry, Mike Milligan, Ian Marshall and Andy Ritchie first (all 1990 versions of course ) Edited May 20, 2009 by dfOAFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkenyonqfc2 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Having a squad of any size is about using it. I'd like to see a mix of experienced players and youngsters (bearing in mind some of our youngsters have now played 100 games for the club). Certain people we have let go need replacing and top of that list for me is Crossley- you need two goalies plus a back up in football and Crossley also provided a coaching role- he was a bit expensive yes but we got two things out of him for his one salary. How many games did Dale Stephens feature on either the bench or play in- yes he's one for the future but surely his future would be better with playing a bit more regularly at somewhere like Bury last season. Kieron Lee is another who we wasted he was an able backup but he's not that old and I think he might make a few teams in this divisions first teams yet he hardly played. Having only seen Brooke play once (in a youth game) I can't really comment on him too much but he is another who if we aren't careful we could waste- there is no point in a youngster like Brooke sitting on the bench but not likely to get on (i.e. there's a least one forward in front of him) or sitting in the stand. I'm not sure about the standard of our reserve team football but I think Brooke could benefit from a spell out on loan at a good conference side or even someone in League 1- as they are likely to play him. (Wolfy could have done with this a few years ago too). We normally have at least one youth team player in each position who gets a contract they would be better served sitting on the bench and very rarely getting on than what we had last year with pros doing the same job. A lot of teams have ended up getting promoted from our division recently with youngsters on loan from Premiership sides in their teams- Brandy at Swansea and Hobbs at Leicster both spring to mind. We could do far worse than trying this tatic- much better than the Windass loan signing in my opinion- one option might be Evans's brother from United or Etuhu from City. We need some experience in our team for next season- but it has to be the right sort of experience. Last season with the absence of reserve games to keep the squad fit we had far too big a squad- especially when you consider Shez's penchant for bringing in people on loan. The season before we had a much more balanced squad but we struggled with injuries and so had to play the likes of Smalley/Alessandra before or much more than we wanted to. That was no bad thing though for this season as I don't think Lewis and Smalley would be at the level they are now without that experience. Some good league 2 players in their mid-late 20's would be a good thing as well- as they have a lot of the experience needed plus they are not likely to loose their fitness and I think sometimes we were missing that sort of in between player last year. So in summary I'd like to see a good mix of players in an average sized squad (maybe about the same sort of size as last year's size but with reserve team games- or much smaller without them). We have the youngsters, we need some more experience, and possibly someone else's quality youngsters, hopefully that experience won't be all players in their 30s. well said,you make some very interesting points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeykieran Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 all I'm trying to say is, for me, he cemented his legend status in the years before we found success. although certainly more than a "bit part player" from 89 to 91, many other players were far more important to that success. the comment was that we "need a new Roger Palmer" - while I certainly wouldn't say no to that I'd rather us sign a new Denis Irwin, Earl Barrett, Paul Warhurst, Nick Henry, Mike Milligan, Ian Marshall and Andy Ritchie first (all 1990 versions of course ) I stand by my original comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldhamahoy Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 We need a lot of players. I'd bring in some young hungry players with a good pedigree and have some older experienced lads. Pawel Abbot would be a good signing from penneys old club darlo. Shame jason kennedy has gone to rochdale because he's a good player too. I check to see which players have left there club and would be able to play for oldham and theres a good few. One that is interesting is Laurence Wilson who has just left Chester City. He's an attacking left back who was at Everton and around the first team. I know former Oldham player Andy Holden who is reserve manager at Everton who said he'd be perfect. What does anyone think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oorwillie59 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 I would like the squad to have 2 players in every position from the start of the season. With manager having enough faith to play the back up player if needed or to switch them around and give them both a chance. Therefore removing the need to use the short term loan system unless its an emergency. Even if the team isnt pushing for promotion, I would like to see the manager stick by the players he has assembled during the summer. Whether these players are made up of experienced pros, lower league gambles, our youngsters or even a couple of long term loanies doesnt really bothered me, I would just like a settled squad, with competition for each starting place (oh and a reserve team to keep those out of the side match fit). I'll go along with wozz's squad suggestion, Shez's use of the loan players option was imo embarrassing and have no wish to see what equated to a full team of mercenaries comming and going at our club again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigfinLatic Posted May 23, 2009 Share Posted May 23, 2009 I think the thing most are missing is the fact you need a shed load of luck with injuries - I think we have the best physio possible at this level, but promoted teams have to rely on thier quality players not getting injured... Look at any of the teams up top - How many games did Fryatt and Howard miss for Leicester? McKail-Smith and Boyd for P'Boro? Hooper and Hayes for Scunny - even with Leicester I'd be hard pushed to say they are much more than workmanlike other than thier front two... even look at super leeds - how utter bobbins were they when Beckford was out... in turn, look at how reliant we were on Hughes and Tayls, and how we struggled without them scoring... My point is this - I've said it in another post... the only answer is the 'Mix' - but you get a load of average work-man like players, and then invest on getting Quality (at this level) up top.... then you hope to hell they dont get injured... Only way to do it IMO - Decent keeper - 8 Grafters and 2 quality players up top... then pray your quality plays 95% of your games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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