First post for a while...

[LaticsLee]

thats because talbot had a better team than penny.

[razza699]

thats because talbot had a better team than penny.

 

 

Talbot used the loan system well, i.e. killkenny and croft

 

 

 

[nava]

As for Colbeck...it must just be coincidence then that he's not figured in any of our games since....taking him off was nothing to do with the fact he either was carrying a knock, or was fatiguing (like Abbott was on Saturday) due to carrying an injury?

 

Apart from him starting the next game at Hartlepool and looking anything but tired when sprinting off wen he was substituted at wycombe. I can't see a 22 year old lad being tired after 70 mins of football.

 

[Scapegoat]

Some good posts so far.

 

I think we can all agree that Dave's first season is not going according to plan, and consequenlty I don't think anyone would say that his is not culpable for that in terms of signings / tactics / team selection.

 

However at this stage you have two options you can support:

 

(1) Continue to support the manager and believe that he will turn it round. Have confidence that he will learn more about the players in the squad and how to get the most out of them. That he can add one or two bew faces that will make the difference. Believe that whilst we are in the relegation zone, in terms of points on the board we are not that far off being an average team in this division, which given the resources available is a good position for us this year.

 

(2) Dave Penny is not capable of improving the team and that if he stays relegation is inevitable AND that despite even less money due to his pay-off we can sign a manager that will be capable of improving the results with the same bunch of players (or ones the new person can attract).

 

 

I am willing to go with Option 1. Partly because I think that Dave can and will improve, partly because I think managers deserve a chance, but perhaps more importantly I don't think we will get anyone from following Option 2 will improve the situation.

[Steve_R]

Some good posts so far.

 

I think we can all agree that Dave's first season is not going according to plan, and consequenlty I don't think anyone would say that his is not culpable for that in terms of signings / tactics / team selection.

 

However at this stage you have two options you can support:

 

(1) Continue to support the manager and believe that he will turn it round. Have confidence that he will learn more about the players in the squad and how to get the most out of them. That he can add one or two bew faces that will make the difference. Believe that whilst we are in the relegation zone, in terms of points on the board we are not that far off being an average team in this division, which given the resources available is a good position for us this year.

 

(2) Dave Penny is not capable of improving the team and that if he stays relegation is inevitable AND that despite even less money due to his pay-off we can sign a manager that will be capable of improving the results with the same bunch of players (or ones the new person can attract).

 

 

I am willing to go with Option 1. Partly because I think that Dave can and will improve, partly because I think managers deserve a chance, but perhaps more importantly I don't think we will get anyone from following Option 2 will improve the situation.

or

(3) Continue to support the manager because you believe all managers should be given more time than half a season. Be prepared to let them rectify their mistakes, although from what you've seen so far you don't have that much confidence that this will happen.

[leeslover]

Talbot used the loan system well, i.e. killkenny and croft

David Lee, Dean Crowe...

[EASTLEY]

I find it almost unbelievable that several posters can claim to have never called for a managers head before after what happened under Talbot...if that's true, then to me it shows how unfair you're now being to Penney as Talbot was a terrible manager but yet you couldn't come to calling for his head. AND also...Talbot had longer than DP has had, if only 6/7wks!!!

 

As for Colbeck...it must just be coincidence then that he's not figured in any of our games since....taking him off was nothing to do with the fact he either was carrying a knock, or was fatiguing (like Abbott was on Saturday) due to carrying an injury?

 

Firstly as you don't know me then you probably have to take my word for it or not as you choose. I have been watching Latics since about 1974 so up until after the glory years only had a choice of 2 to knock. I was disappointed when Stitch went and pleased when Wadsworth went but have never really blamed the manager for our predicament, as I say you can take my word for it or not, the fact is in all my years of watching I have never seen as consistently negative tactics as I am seeing at present. Our goals for column supports my feelings

 

Colbeck was in the box on Weds and said he got a knock in training and was missing as his hamstring(I think)was tight but expected to be back for Sat(which he wasn't)therefore this was unrelated to Wycombe............so coincidence absolutley

 

Pav didn't appear to me to be fatigued at the time of his withdrawal, more bemused to be fair again IMO.

 

Pick holes all you want BB80 but I fear for Latics league 1 future under Penney's management

 

[garcon]

I have always been an advocate of giving the manager time. However to do that you need to be sure you've chosen the right manager. So first of all you need to be able to recognise that in the first 6 months and if necessary have the gumption to admit your choice was wrong and get rid. If you stick by your man for a season, you need to stick by him for at least the whole of the next season - because this should be when his team and his tactics begin to bear fruit. To do this you need to be able to tell the difference between a temporary slump in form and a manager who has lost his way, sit tight through the former (despite the inevitable clamour from the fans) but don't be afraid to act in the latter.

 

TTA were absolutely right to sack Talbot when they did - it had become obvious at that point that he had lost his way, lost the squad and would have taken us down.

 

TTA have admitted that with hindsight sacking Ronnie Moore when they did was the wrong decision for the wrong reasons. We should have given him that second full season, both to improve our position and hopefully our style of play.

 

After the relatively quick succession of managers since 2004, it was obvious that TTA were going to give Sheridan as much time as they could. He gave himself a difficult standard to beat with a very decent first season, on the whole he maintained that standard in the second season, and looked to have made another step forward in the first half of his third season. However the collapse from form was spectacular, and whatever really went on behind closed doors and whatever the real repercussions of "Belle Vue-gate" were, by the end of February last year it was obvious that the loss of form wasn't temporary and had some pretty fundamental roots. I know others disagree, but I believe TTA correctly decided that Shez had truly lost his way, had little hope of recovering the situation himself, and therefore had to go. It was with great regret that I accepted that decision, and I expect it was with great regret that they took it - after all, last Christmas it was really beginning to look like Shez was the man to build a legacy at Oldham and take us on to better things.

 

With Penney's record and his eloquence in the first few interviews I supported his appointment as the right kind of manager to instill a few things that may have been lacking under Shez - organisation on the field, discipline off it, etc. At the start of the season, having seen the squad Penney had assembled, my main two concerns were cover at the back and where the goals were going to come from. But I felt that if he was able to give us organisation on the pitch then maybe we could make progress, all be it in a less exciting way than under Shez; I'd be willing to accept "1-0, Abbott" most weeks if it got us up.

 

Half a season in and the worry about goals has materialised, and maybe the organisation has too - but at the expense of passion, tempo, flair and a willingness (or ability) to battle to the end to see out a good result. It REALLY isn't working, and at present I can only see this squad taking us down. Now, I'm sure TTA are unwilling to pull the trigger until they absolutely have to, but having stood by him after the weekend I think it's now very simple - anything less than two wins from the next three games and he has to go... it'll probably be too late to save us by then, but we have to act.

[EASTLEY]

I have always been an advocate of giving the manager time. However to do that you need to be sure you've chosen the right manager. So first of all you need to be able to recognise that in the first 6 months and if necessary have the gumption to admit your choice was wrong and get rid. If you stick by your man for a season, you need to stick by him for at least the whole of the next season - because this should be when his team and his tactics begin to bear fruit. To do this you need to be able to tell the difference between a temporary slump in form and a manager who has lost his way, sit tight through the former (despite the inevitable clamour from the fans) but don't be afraid to act in the latter.

 

TTA were absolutely right to sack Talbot when they did - it had become obvious at that point that he had lost his way, lost the squad and would have taken us down.

 

TTA have admitted that with hindsight sacking Ronnie Moore when they did was the wrong decision for the wrong reasons. We should have given him that second full season, both to improve our position and hopefully our style of play.

 

After the relatively quick succession of managers since 2004, it was obvious that TTA were going to give Sheridan as much time as they could. He gave himself a difficult standard to beat with a very decent first season, on the whole he maintained that standard in the second season, and looked to have made another step forward in the first half of his third season. However the collapse from form was spectacular, and whatever really went on behind closed doors and whatever the real repercussions of "Belle Vue-gate" were, by the end of February last year it was obvious that the loss of form wasn't temporary and had some pretty fundamental roots. I know others disagree, but I believe TTA correctly decided that Shez had truly lost his way, had little hope of recovering the situation himself, and therefore had to go. It was with great regret that I accepted that decision, and I expect it was with great regret that they took it - after all, last Christmas it was really beginning to look like Shez was the man to build a legacy at Oldham and take us on to better things.

 

With Penney's record and his eloquence in the first few interviews I supported his appointment as the right kind of manager to instill a few things that may have been lacking under Shez - organisation on the field, discipline off it, etc. At the start of the season, having seen the squad Penney had assembled, my main two concerns were cover at the back and where the goals were going to come from. But I felt that if he was able to give us organisation on the pitch then maybe we could make progress, all be it in a less exciting way than under Shez; I'd be willing to accept "1-0, Abbott" most weeks if it got us up.

 

Half a season in and the worry about goals has materialised, and maybe the organisation has too - but at the expense of passion, tempo, flair and a willingness (or ability) to battle to the end to see out a good result. It REALLY isn't working, and at present I can only see this squad taking us down. Now, I'm sure TTA are unwilling to pull the trigger until they absolutely have to, but having stood by him after the weekend I think it's now very simple - anything less than two wins from the next three games and he has to go... it'll probably be too late to save us by then, but we have to act.

 

Garcon you have very eloquently and concisely summarised my feelings - though I probably would have given Shez until the end of last season and maybe upto Nov this year to regain the dressing room and move a couple of players on.

 

Great Post though I think summarising what a lot of people|(not necessarily on this board) are thinking

 

[boundaryblue80]

Weren't you calling for Talbot's head?

Yes, I was. Not sure what your point is. Talbot was a terrible manager and doesn't compare to Penney. I think people seem to suggest I'm asking for Penney to get 2-3yrs when I'm saying nothing of the sort.

 

When I decide over a manager, I ask myself one simple question. Has this manager hit the ceiling of his ability? I know for a fact Penney hasn't. Showed it under Donny when backed. Silk purse and sows ear currently here. Under Talbot, we were nailed on going down under him. We're far from that under Penney. We've barely passed the halfway mark! There's now 3 big games coming up and we need points from them....if he starts playing the wrong team (IMO) and his tactics aren't the best then I'll be more worried about things. I'm not saying people are wrong to be concerned, but they're wrong to want him sacked as things stand. Esp, when it covers up TTA's :censored:e budget for a managers 1st season here.

 

At present, this hysteria is akin to what happens at the other end of the scale when we're at the top and people get over-excited and predict ridiculous things. Not as many do that tho as do the gloom side of it, coz well, we're all a pessimistic lot who revels better in predicting doom than success.

 

We may go down...but people have been wanting to turn on Penney from day one, I predicted it'd be Moore-part 2 in the summer with the sniping back then! The injuries, the lack of games, the struggle for match fitness since returning to playing regularly and the bad luck like the pen on Saturday are perfect sticks to beat with. We've just got :censored: fans who don't want to have an open mind. If Penney's not the man to keep us up, we'll find that out. But it'll mask the bigger problems in the club and only be repeated when the next guy/scapegoat/saviour isn't backed by TTA! There's talk from Hardy today as though Penney might be this week.....let's see how things go eh!!!

Edited January 26, 2010 by boundaryblue80

[boundaryblue80]

Apart from him starting the next game at Hartlepool and looking anything but tired when sprinting off wen he was substituted at wycombe. I can't see a 22 year old lad being tired after 70 mins of football.

 

I forgot Colbeck played vs Hartlepool...fair enough...but if you can't see a lad being tired after 70 mins, you've not seen Chris Taylor play once this season then.

[boundaryblue80]

David Lee, Dean Crowe...

Bertrand Bossu, Kenny Cooper..

[boundaryblue80]

Pav didn't appear to me to be fatigued at the time of his withdrawal, more bemused to be fair again IMO.

 

Pick holes all you want BB80 but I fear for Latics league 1 future under Penney's management

Was saying to those I was sat with after about 55 mins how he was blowing. If he wasn't fatigued, we're watching different games.

 

I'm not really after picking holes in your comment anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, but I just think it's amazing you're worried enough for our L1 status this season to warrant the man be sacked, when under Talbot, we were far worse off (points-wise) with a bigger budget but you weren't worried enough then to make the same calls for a head. Seems grossly unfair on Penney when you compare the two scenarios.

[EASTLEY]

Was saying to those I was sat with after about 55 mins how he was blowing. If he wasn't fatigued, we're watching different games.

 

I'm not really after picking holes in your comment anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, but I just think it's amazing you're worried enough for our L1 status this season to warrant the man be sacked, when under Talbot, we were far worse off (points-wise) with a bigger budget but you weren't worried enough then to make the same calls for a head. Seems grossly unfair on Penney when you compare the two scenarios.

 

Maybe you are right about Pav, when Talbot came in I think my expectations were generally lower, he was a good guy but not a great manager, to be fair I was also still playing Sat football then, though I had a season ticket so wasn't getting to every game

[Steve_R]

Was saying to those I was sat with after about 55 mins how he was blowing. If he wasn't fatigued, we're watching different games.

 

I'm not really after picking holes in your comment anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, but I just think it's amazing you're worried enough for our L1 status this season to warrant the man be sacked, when under Talbot, we were far worse off (points-wise) with a bigger budget but you weren't worried enough then to make the same calls for a head. Seems grossly unfair on Penney when you compare the two scenarios.

 

League Position after 25 games under Talbot - 15th

Points under Talbot after 25 games - 32

Goals scored under Talbot after 25 games - 39

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm on your side re Penney and was no fan of Talbot (although I never demanded his head on a plate early doors, unlike some I could mention), but at the moment things weren't as bad under him.

 

I know it got a lot worse but we didn't actually sink into the bottom four before he was given the bullet.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Steve_R

[Scapegoat]

League Position after 25 games under Talbot - 15th

Points under Talbot after 25 games - 32

Goals scored under Talbot after 25 games - 39

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm on your side re Penney and was no fan of Talbot (although I never demanded his head on a plate early doors, unlike some I could mention), but at the moment things weren't as bad under him.

 

I know it got a lot worse but we didn't actually sink into the bottom four before he was given the bullet.

 

Whilst the comparison is interesting (though begin fair I think the starting squad and money for wages was different) I don't there is anybody that can say they are happy with the results and performances on the whole this season (and I think Dave Penny and the team would agree) and that we need to improve to stay up.

 

 

It comes down to whether you believe we need a change of manager to achieve that, or give a manager time to sort it out. Many on the board/this thread seem to be favouring a new manager - I favour backing him.