oafc0000 Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Thanks, I think. saw it and I thought that it would look better than a simple "I agree" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 This thread is absolute nonsense! If we continue to change the players and the manager at the first hint of troubled times we will never build, never progress and for sure we will never get out of this league. Saturday was a terrible performance but I for one will give shez the rest of this season and season after before I even begin to call for his head. I agree substantially with Garcon's post-except for not seeing how fans of this club can exactly be accused of lacking patience and his version of TTA's reasons for appointing Sheridan (it was, in my book, another Ritchie-style crowd pleaser, a decision taken because experienced and previously successful managers had been tried without any notable progress; they might as well have given him the job from the off, and only proved that, as far as the playing side goes, they are only as clued up as most of us.) As for changing the players, isn't it the case that every season, like most clubs at this level, we see players moving on because they demand new contracts that the owners are, rightly or wrongly, not prepared to meet? As a result we start every season with half a new team who, as with the current campaign, play like the strangers they mostly are for at least the first dozen games. With such a lack of continuity, what is a manager supposed to do? Good team on paper or not, automatic promotion (and, arguably the play-offs), have slipped over the horizon before a team even begins to gel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 On Sheridan's appointment, I guess the truth lies somewhere between our opinions and financial constraints. At the time, although I was no fan of Moore's style, I thought TTA probably should have stood up to fan pressure and given him another season. (It's not as if our crowds now are any better than they would have been last year...) However, having appointed Sheridan knowing hijm as well as they did, they now need to stand by him at least for a while longer. I meant to add in somewhere that TTA themselves are on one hell of a learning curve too. Damn good point on player turnover. The successful sides not only tend to have stability of manager/coaching staff but also of a core of first team players. Perfect example is Wigan's rise through the leagues under Jewell. And I agree, that stability of key players is more and more difficult in the current environment where clubs simply can't afford to offer long term contracts, so with a few rare exceptions we end up with a combination of green academy graduates and short term journey men. That's a symptom of the modern game at our level that I really have no answer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted December 31, 2007 Share Posted December 31, 2007 Damn good point on player turnover. The successful sides not only tend to have stability of manager/coaching staff but also of a core of first team players. Perfect example is Wigan's rise through the leagues under Jewell. And I agree, that stability of key players is more and more difficult in the current environment where clubs simply can't afford to offer long term contracts, so with a few rare exceptions we end up with a combination of green academy graduates and short term journey men. That's a symptom of the modern game at our level that I really have no answer to. Aside from becoming one of the clubs that pays what key players demand and thus hoping to keep a winning side together, neither do I. It is a financial gamble that you can only hope will pay off in terms of increased revenue through the turnstiles (and going further in the variuos competitions) as lapsed and new fans turn up to see a successful side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyterryb Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 On Sheridan's appointment, I guess the truth lies somewhere between our opinions and financial constraints. At the time, although I was no fan of Moore's style, I thought TTA probably should have stood up to fan pressure and given him another season. (It's not as if our crowds now are any better than they would have been last year...) However, having appointed Sheridan knowing hijm as well as they did, they now need to stand by him at least for a while longer. I meant to add in somewhere that TTA themselves are on one hell of a learning curve too. Damn good point on player turnover. The successful sides not only tend to have stability of manager/coaching staff but also of a core of first team players. Perfect example is Wigan's rise through the leagues under Jewell. And I agree, that stability of key players is more and more difficult in the current environment where clubs simply can't afford to offer long term contracts, so with a few rare exceptions we end up with a combination of green academy graduates and short term journey men. That's a symptom of the modern game at our level that I really have no answer to. Garcon: I admire and agree with the majority of your post. I am sorry for not replying earlier to your comments but this was because I was staying in Colchester with a good friend who supports Leeds.. He wouldn't let me access this website after the result the other day. I wanted to say that Shez actually used plan b against Leeds and look at the result. He has certainly won me bragging rights for the rest of the season. I would however like to point out the continued insistence by Shez of replacing like for like when he makes substitutions? Have you a view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garcon Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 There are parts of the tactical approach to the game that Shez will improve on as he gains experience. I definitely think substitutions is one of them. Having said that, alot of the time his options are relatively limited... and it's alot easier for us as fans to say he should change the system part way through a game or chuck a forward on for a defensive player - we don't have to face the consequences if that goes wrong. If we're chasing a game, maybe Shez thinks we have more chance using the system the players know than trying to change it and getting them to understand what he wants on the hoof (er, so to speak). 9 times out of 10, subbing like for like is probably the right thing to do ... I guess what Shez needs to improve on is when to go for that 1 in 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_latics Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Whoever said that was 'The Plan'? If you don't think bottom third of the table is underachieving, fine-I suppose it all depends what your ambitions are. PS: Shots that don't hit the back of the net don't win games. Can't believe the reactions of some, so called, fans. This is a young side that is going places.....SHEZ to stay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Can't believe the reactions of some, so called, fans. This is a young side that is going places.....SHEZ to stay! I have ambition, I want us to go up, but some are fans are first class prats. Even before the unbeaten run I was saying we are only a player or two away from a good side. Porter and Wellens went late in the day which left us little time to replace them. Kilkenny was rushed in as Wellens replacement and we took a chance on Ricketts and Hughes.... Ricketts didnt work and it took time for Kilkenny to bed down... Also the likes of Allott and Taylor took a while to get going. We look better every time I see us play at the moment with the exception of Wallsall. While I want promotion as much as the next man I also realise that we need to be patient and give the manager time to gel things together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma06 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 TTA appointed Sheridan because they believed he is the man for the future. They appointed Shez because people were not buying season tickets because they wanted Moore sacked and Sheridan in. Where are they now? They wanted Shez and then they stop coming because we don't get instant success. Shez is still learning and doing an ok job of it. We should stick with him, our whole club needs to be settled. We keep changing managers and squads almost every season and that is what we need to stop in my opinion. We need a management team who want to be here - which it seems we have got now and we need a squad of decent players who want to play for the club and for each other, when we have that then success should follow. We have some decent players and some good young prospects but we need some experience because as soon as things don't go our way then there heads drop. If look at the teams we had under Royle and then Dowie we had players who would play their hearts out for the team, they weren't world beaters they just never gave up and when things were going against them they didn't start arguing on the pitch and they didn't let there heads drop they stuck together and worked through it. That is what we need. We are a small local club and we need to get the town interested in the club again, unnforunately the cost puts lots of people off, which is understandable and it's also understandable that TTA put the prices up as they want to get some money back into the club. We need to stick with Shez and give him time. I personally do not see us getting promotion this season unless we make some exceptional signings this month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 They appointed Shez because people were not buying season tickets because they wanted Moore sacked and Sheridan in. Where are they now? They wanted Shez and then they stop coming because we don't get instant success. Well said.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Can't believe the reactions of some, so called, fans. This is a young side that is going places.....SHEZ to stay! As I keep having t say, it seems, I haven't called for Shez to go even once. This might be a young side etc, but it's largely a different one from last season. With the way things are going in the game, next season, as pointed out above, may see a different side again donning the blue shirt. It's a problem of continuity. We have spent the season so far in the bottom half of the table because the players started off in August as strangers. You can't get out of a division if you don't win a majority of the early games. Edited January 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oa_exile Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 You can't get out of a division if you don't win a majority of the early games. Dont quote that to the Lashers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danoafc Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) They appointed Shez because people were not buying season tickets because they wanted Moore sacked and Sheridan in. Where are they now? They wanted Shez and then they stop coming because we don't get instant success. Shez is still learning and doing an ok job of it. We should stick with him, our whole club needs to be settled. We keep changing managers and squads almost every season and that is what we need to stop in my opinion. We need a management team who want to be here - which it seems we have got now and we need a squad of decent players who want to play for the club and for each other, when we have that then success should follow. We have some decent players and some good young prospects but we need some experience because as soon as things don't go our way then there heads drop. If look at the teams we had under Royle and then Dowie we had players who would play their hearts out for the team, they weren't world beaters they just never gave up and when things were going against them they didn't start arguing on the pitch and they didn't let there heads drop they stuck together and worked through it. That is what we need. We are a small local club and we need to get the town interested in the club again, unnforunately the cost puts lots of people off, which is understandable and it's also understandable that TTA put the prices up as they want to get some money back into the club. We need to stick with Shez and give him time. I personally do not see us getting promotion this season unless we make some exceptional signings this month A lot of good sense in there again Gemma. It seems as though most of the squad are now working hard for each other - something they didn't appear to be doing in the first quarter of the season. There are fewer arguments now on the pitch (Kilenny excepted - if he stay he needs to learn to keep his trap shut more often). No matter what anybody thinks, losing players like Porter and Wellens was a huge blow and one which was going to take some considerable time from which to recover. Shez has made a couple of mistakes in the transfer market, but then again, which managers dont? Particularly when they are as inexperienced as he is in management. And just as a final point, for a plan B - we're hardly blessed with many options to change things from the bench at the moment are we? No other creative midfielder, not many striking options (Smalley and Wolfy who are both still inexperienced kids). Somebody like a fit Andy Liddell coming off the bench would give us real scope to change things round, but we don't have that at the minute. Lets see what happens if/when we get one or two more experienced faces in in the window. Edited January 3, 2008 by danoafc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Well said.... The vast majority of those who were unhappy with Moore are still here. But the nature of football dictates that you can't harangue people into coming to games,especially at today's prices. Outside of the real hard core, people will only come when they think something special is happening. Last season it looked, for a time, like it was. When the team gave up the ghost, so did those whose interest had been temporarily rekindled. Plus, the fact that the big money clubs have got things pretty much sewn up has taken much of the romance out of football, lowering the interest of the casual fan even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Dont quote that to the Lashers There are aways exceptions to the rule. They are rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oa_exile Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 No matter what anybody thinks, losing players like Porter and Wellens was a huge blow and one which was going to take some considerable time from which to recover. Shez has made a couple of mistakes in the transfer market, but then again, which managers dont? Particularly when they are as inexperienced as he is in management. I think looking back you can add Warne and Charlton to that.If we would still have them it would have improved the overall strength of the squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 No matter what anybody thinks, losing players like Porter and Wellens was a huge blow and one which was going to take some considerable time from which to recover. Shez has made a couple of mistakes in the transfer market, but then again, which managers dont? Particularly when they are as inexperienced as he is in management. And just as a final point, for a plan B - we're hardly blessed with many options to change things from the bench at the moment are we? No other creative midfielder, not many striking options (Smalley and Wolfy who are both still inexperienced kids). Somebody like a fit Andy Liddell coming off the bench would give us real scope to change things round, but we don't have that at the minute. Lets see what happens if/when we get one or two more experienced faces in in the window. The hard message is: pay up or lose them. That's the way it is now and there's no way round it without fundamental reform of the game. It might kill the game at this level eventually. Maybe Porter and Wellens have been replaced, but aside from the disruption of losing them, there is only any real benefit to the club is if those who replaced them remain here long-term. You can't progress with a team of temporary journeymen and loan players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danoafc Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 The hard message is: pay up or lose them. That's the way it is now and there's no way round it without fundamental reform of the game. It might kill the game at this level eventually. Maybe Porter and Wellens have been replaced, but aside from the disruption of losing them, there is only any real benefit to the club is if those who replaced them remain here long-term. You can't progress with a team of temporary journeymen and loan players. Pay up or lose them? At any price? I agree you have to speculate to accumulate, but at any price? No thanks. I do not ever want another summer like 2003 in relation to football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Pay up or lose them? At any price? I agree you have to speculate to accumulate, but at any price? No thanks. I do not ever want another summer like 2003 in relation to football. I'm not necessarily saying that TTA should, but simply pointing out that this is how it currently is. Having to rebuild in close season is the reason why it is unlikly that we'll go up this year. If you don't keep a good squad together, you don't progress. Edited January 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danoafc Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I'm not necessarily saying that TTA should, but simply pointing out that this is how it currently is. Having to rebuild in close season is the reason why it is unlikly that we'll go up this year. If you don't keep a good squad together, you don't progress. I couldn't agree more Corporal, but if the alternative is to start waving around silly contracts that we can't afford, then I don't want us to have any part of it. If offering silly money guaranteed promotion within a set timescale then fine, but Bristol City and Wigan are both testament to that fact that it simply doesn't work like that. 1 and 2 year deals are obviously a problem as they don't allow enough continuilty to build and develop a squad. Perhaps the answer would be instead of the club offering straightforward 2 or 3 year deals like they did for Ricketts, offer 2 years with the option for us to exercise a third year at a minimum agreed % of uplift in salary for the player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) I couldn't agree more Corporal, but if the alternative is to start waving around silly contracts that we can't afford, then I don't want us to have any part of it. If offering silly money guaranteed promotion within a set timescale then fine, but Bristol City and Wigan are both testament to that fact that it simply doesn't work like that. 1 and 2 year deals are obviously a problem as they don't allow enough continuilty to build and develop a squad. Perhaps the answer would be instead of the club offering straightforward 2 or 3 year deals like they did for Ricketts, offer 2 years with the option for us to exercise a third year at a minimum agreed % of uplift in salary for the player? Perhaps-and in the long term hope that extra revenue generated by the stadium redevelopment enables us to compete for the best players available at the level at which we find ourselves. Which in turn should boost revenue through the turnstiles. Edited January 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapegoat Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Crikey - not spent a lot of time on here recently and I am surprised by this thread. Since Shez has been in charge, the overall quality of football we try (not always succeed) to play has been better than a number of seasons before it (I inlcude the successful, but workmanlike Dowie Play-off season in this as well). I have actually 'enjoyed' watching Latics for the last couple of seasons. We are a team with limited resources and an over-expectant home-support who recall us punching above our weight and expect too much. Whilst there is money available from TTA, it hasn't been enough for Sheriden to retain and build on last years success (the loss of Wellens and Porter are proof of that). So it has required some re-building this year - and I think overall we are improving (the league table is proof of that). We could easily match last years achievements this season by finishing in the play-offs, but even if we don't I'd still keep Sheriden in charge. As long as we don't get relegated, let him continue to learn his trade - its not as though we'd have a long list of successful managers queueing up to replace him is it? The most successful managers on the whole have been at clubs for a while before success comes along - yet chairmen, media and fans all demand instant success or you are out. Madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Crikey - not spent a lot of time on here recently and I am surprised by this thread. Since Shez has been in charge, the overall quality of football we try (not always succeed) to play has been better than a number of seasons before it (I inlcude the successful, but workmanlike Dowie Play-off season in this as well). I have actually 'enjoyed' watching Latics for the last couple of seasons. We are a team with limited resources and an over-expectant home-support who recall us punching above our weight and expect too much. Whilst there is money available from TTA, it hasn't been enough for Sheriden to retain and build on last years success (the loss of Wellens and Porter are proof of that). So it has required some re-building this year - and I think overall we are improving (the league table is proof of that). We could easily match last years achievements this season by finishing in the play-offs, but even if we don't I'd still keep Sheriden in charge. As long as we don't get relegated, let him continue to learn his trade - its not as though we'd have a long list of successful managers queueing up to replace him is it? The most successful managers on the whole have been at clubs for a while before success comes along - yet chairmen, media and fans all demand instant success or you are out. Madness. The problem is that hanging around in the same divison leads to stagnation and decline more often than it results in constant progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorvik_latic Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 The most successful managers on the whole have been at clubs for a while before success comes along - yet chairmen, media and fans all demand instant success or you are out. Madness. Exactly. The second season of Joe Royle's management we finished 19th. In this day and age he would have been sacked. Who knows where we would be if we had! We are playing some decent football while trying to create some stability. All of this while trying to achieve a sensible, self-sufficient club without throwing money away. We've been down here long enough, we can handle another season until the ground get's sorted and the club stabilises. We have been waiting on the planning permission so TTA know where we are financially. Now we have it, it looks like we have a bit to spend. You can't keep sacking managers and I can't believe people are suggesting that we do! Get real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 We are playing some decent football while trying to create some stability. What's stable about six or seven new first team players every season, bolstered by short-term loans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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