jorvik_latic Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 What's stable about six or seven new first team players every season, bolstered by short-term loans? Shez has to create a core team he is happy with. Some of the players that have left have been beyond our control, is Shez to blame for that? It happens to all teams, should they all sack their managers because players move on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) We are a team with limited resources and an over-expectant home-support who recall us punching above our weight and expect too much. Were we punching above our weight in the old Second Division? If so, we were doing it for twenty-one years out of twenty-four between 1974-1997. The danger with getting bogged down in the lower divisions is that a whole new generation of fans grows up thinking this is where we naturally belong. That's within the core support, too. In general, being mired in the third-tier (lucky several times not to slip lower), results in the younger people of the town refusing to take Latics seriously. Only signs of genuine ambition will ever get through to them, especially when a whole host of historically smaller clubs than ours are sailing past us. Edited January 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Shez has to create a core team he is happy with. Some of the players that have left have been beyond our control, is Shez to blame for that? It happens to all teams, should they all sack their managers because players move on? Drop the sack the manager stuff. Few on these boards have actually suggested anything of the sort. The point is that, unless you allow the players to dictate terms to you and pay up, your best players walk away. This makes it impossible to build a settled squad, let alone 'a core team the manager is happy with.' Which, in turn, usually means that you stay where you are. Eventually, more fans get disillusioned, few new ones come along to replace them, club owners get frustrated and pack up and the club, at best, limps on, trying to survive from one season to the next. This is the trap clubs like Latics are in. It is only to be hoped that the stadium redevelopment will help us break out of it. Edited January 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorvik_latic Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Drop the sack the manager stuff. Few on these boards have actually suggested anything of the sort. The point is that, unless you allow the players to dictate terms to you and pay up, your best players walk away. This makes it impossible to build a settled squad, let alone 'a core team the manager is happy with.' Which, in turn, usually means that you stay where you are. Eventually, more fans get disillusioned, few new ones come along to replace them, club owners get frustrated and pack up and the club, at best, limps on, trying to survive from one season to the next. This is the trap clubs like Latics are in. It is only to be hoped that the stadium redevelopment will help us break out of it. Fair enough, I was confused at what you were getting at. I's true that we need to be attractive to gain some much needed fans. As you say, the redevelopment (and hopefully a turnaround in finances) will sort this out. We can't, however, give in to each players financial demands and break the bank to keep/entice them here. We need to be realistic and run the club sensibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapegoat Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Were we punching above our weight in the old Second Division? If so, we were doing it for twenty-one years out of twenty-four between 1974-1997. The danger with getting bogged down in the lower divisions is that a whole new generation of fans grows up thinking this is where we naturally belong. That's within the core support, too. In general, being mired in the third-tier (lucky several times not to slip lower), results in the younger people of the town refusing to take Latics seriously. Only signs of genuine ambition will ever get through to them, especially when a whole host of historically smaller clubs than ours are sailing past us. Maybe not in the 70s and 80s, but football has changed significantly since then. Money is a far bigger influence now than at any other time. In the 70s and 80s it was possible for teams outside 4 (arguably 3 clubs) big teams to have a realistic chance of winning the top league title. Now clubs like Everton / Villa etc strive to get 4tyh at best. Based on our set-up and fan-base - we are where we are probably best suited. Doesn't mean that we can't strive to improve, but we'd always be seen as punching above our weight in the Championship by everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Dog Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 lets say for arguments sake that we dont go up this season.... that will be two seasons on the bounce that tta's have given shez money for new signings......and two seasons on the bounce we have blown our own chances and let the season fade away like a bad smell. how much longer are........ 1..the tta's prepared to put up with mediocraty season after season with no real progress by keeping faith with a manager who's ability is yet to be proved. 2..the fans prepared to put up with no real progress by someone who is arguably one of our greatest ever players,but sadly one of of our worst managers. bear in mind now that planning permission is granted and all things in the future are rosey,surely they will want a winning team in a higher league to fullfill the prophecy they are setting up. could you blame them if they gave up on shez and got a proven manager in??? Surely there are more POSITIVE things to discuss/debate at the moment ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 No matter what anybody thinks, losing players like Porter and Wellens was a huge blow and one which was going to take some considerable time from which to recover. Shez has made a couple of mistakes in the transfer market, but then again, which managers dont? Particularly when they are as inexperienced as he is in management. And just as a final point, for a plan B - we're hardly blessed with many options to change things from the bench at the moment are we? No other creative midfielder, not many striking options (Smalley and Wolfy who are both still inexperienced kids). Somebody like a fit Andy Liddell coming off the bench would give us real scope to change things round, but we don't have that at the minute. Lets see what happens if/when we get one or two more experienced faces in in the window. Great minds, and all that, Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunteruk Posted January 3, 2008 Author Share Posted January 3, 2008 Great minds, and all that, Dan. you dont get it do you. by posting a hypaphetical situation that is slightly contensious,it has brought all the positives out and firmly got behind the team and manager. it is obviously worth discussing as over 1k views and over 80 replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie_J Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 you dont get it do you. by posting a hypaphetical situation that is slightly contensious,it has brought all the positives out and firmly got behind the team and manager. it is obviously worth discussing as over 1k views and over 80 replies. I don't get it?! So, you were playing devil's advocate, eh? Righto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics4Ever Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 lets say for arguments sake that we dont go up this season.... that will be two seasons on the bounce that tta's have given shez money for new signings......and two seasons on the bounce we have blown our own chances and let the season fade away like a bad smell. how much longer are........ 1..the tta's prepared to put up with mediocraty season after season with no real progress by keeping faith with a manager who's ability is yet to be proved. 2..the fans prepared to put up with no real progress by someone who is arguably one of our greatest ever players,but sadly one of of our worst managers. bear in mind now that planning permission is granted and all things in the future are rosey,surely they will want a winning team in a higher league to fullfill the prophecy they are setting up. could you blame them if they gave up on shez and got a proven manager in??? Not sure if this has been said already, but I think TTA will stay loyal to Sheridan for as long as possible. The only reason they got rid of Talbot and Moore was due to the fact the fans lost faith in both of them, and ultimately the board were forced to listen and take action. I think your comment that Shez is 'one of our worst managers' is well wide of the mark - In 1 and a half seasons we have had a failed play-off campaign in his first full season and a second season that has seen Shez guide the team to 6 away wins in a row. We also try to play football where possible, which is possibly to our detriment in this division. Granted our home form is appaling this season, 2 wins at home by the turn of the year doesn't bode well, but the thought of sacking yet another manager and starting all over again would simply set us back even more years! Personally, I think Shez should be given time to mould his own team to play football the way he wants us to play and to build a team that not only can win promotion but can then hold its own once up in the Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) Maybe not in the 70s and 80s, but football has changed significantly since then. Money is a far bigger influence now than at any other time. In the 70s and 80s it was possible for teams outside 4 (arguably 3 clubs) big teams to have a realistic chance of winning the top league title. Now clubs like Everton / Villa etc strive to get 4tyh at best. Based on our set-up and fan-base - we are where we are probably best suited. Doesn't mean that we can't strive to improve, but we'd always be seen as punching above our weight in the Championship by everyone else. I find it difficult to accept that we are a significantly smaller club than the likes of Barnsley, Blackpool or even Preston and Burnley, let alone Colchester or Scunthorpe. Admittedly, the latter pair are unlikely to survive in the second tier long-term, and perhaps the others too. None of them have exactly rolled over though, particularly Preston and Burnley. You say that, based on our setup and fan base, we are best suited to where we are currently, but if that's what the club settles for the fan base will only decline long term, and the club will stagnate. And ultimately, there is no long-term for full-time professional football at this level if current trends in the game continue. Our only hope is that the stadium generates the income that will enable the club to afford the players capable of getting us into the Championship and staying there. Edited January 3, 2008 by Corporal_Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Lol...how funny it is to read a post like this. All born from drawing against the league leaders who never had any interest of attacking us and losing to the leaders of the form table. Nah, it...sack Shez and get Wenger on the blower! If we cant offer a better deal than Arsenal then that shows a complete lack of ambition. Or maybe its about time its realised that neither our last manager nor current one are the best. But they most certainly aint the worst. Miles from it. Rome wasnt built in a day..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 ....someone above mentioned Jewell and Wigan. That was my main example when Moore was here. The same applies to Shez. I didnt agree with Shezs decisions over Wellens (bet KKs being offered more now yet he's 2nd best to RW imo), Edwards, Rocastle or Warne. He shouldve kept these squad players and added. But he wanted to start building his own side. And like I said in July07...Shezs 2yr plan starts. Hes plenty to learn. And giving a manager time (unless we fall badly into danger) is our DUTY! Like it or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc0000 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) ....someone above mentioned Jewell and Wigan. That was my main example when Moore was here. The same applies to Shez. I didnt agree with Shezs decisions over Wellens (bet KKs being offered more now yet he's 2nd best to RW imo), Edwards, Rocastle or Warne. He shouldve kept these squad players and added. But he wanted to start building his own side. And like I said in July07...Shezs 2yr plan starts. Hes plenty to learn. And giving a manager time (unless we fall badly into danger) is our DUTY! Like it or not! While I agree Wellens is better than KK right now....KK would be a fantastic long term investment where as Wellens wouldnt be... Edited January 3, 2008 by oafc0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk18 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 (edited) We canty possibly judge shez until May! He has had to rebuild the team in the summer and its not quite there. We have january to add a face or two which could make all the difference. Just finished an unbeaten run of 10 games and people are acting like we just lost the last 10....grow up and have a word with yourselfs... Here here, I cant believe the sort of posts that are being posted in this topic. Sheridan is an Oldham fan at heart, true we arent his most beloved club but he truly cares about what happens at this club. He has genuine ambitions to take us higher than we are and he is down to earth. I think he is the only manager in a long time that speaks his mind, is fair to players and the fans in what he says and genuinely wants to do well for the club and not just himself. He was a fantastic player in his day and he is trying to instil that in his playing staff. Look at Joe Royle, the first 3 or 4 years when he came were nothing special at all, the positions we finished in could have made fans wonder if HE was the correct choice and look what happened. Give him time. We all know he could play well as a player and I believe from what he says and does that he will slowly but surely get us acheiving things as a club rather than nearly acheive them. Stop creating unrest such as "is he the man for the job? "how much longer will TTA keep going like this?" We have a new stadium that has been greenlit, we have owners who are not silly with their funds by any means, we have somewhat of a state of financial stability, we have a manager who cares for the club a lot and wants to do well and slowly but surely IS doing well. Stick with it, KTF and in a couple of years i am confident we will be looking down on league one. Just dont go swapping and changing again. That would mean more money wasted on paying off players the new boss wants to get rid of and bringing in his crowd and giving them time to gel etc etc and we're back to square one. Edited January 3, 2008 by mk18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Lol...how funny it is to read a post like this. All born from drawing against the league leaders who never had any interest of attacking us and losing to the leaders of the form table. Nah, it...sack Shez and get Wenger on the blower! If we cant offer a better deal than Arsenal then that shows a complete lack of ambition. Or maybe its about time its realised that neither our last manager nor current one are the best. But they most certainly aint the worst. Miles from it. Rome wasnt built in a day..... Who are you replying to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boundaryblue80 Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Who are you replying to? Erm, didnt realise I had to reply specifically to anyone. Stating what I think. Feel free to comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Who are you replying to? I reckon he was replying to yourself Corporal. A fair reply it was to. A lot of what you say is very true but your complaints will soon be a thing of the past im sure! You cant deny things are looking up on a few years ago (the early Moore years excluded). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 Erm, didnt realise I had to reply specifically to anyone. Stating what I think. Feel free to comment. Yes but you said without specifying any post: Lol...how funny it is to read a post like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I reckon he was replying to yourself Corporal. A fair reply it was to. A lot of what you say is very true but your complaints will soon be a thing of the past im sure! You cant deny things are looking up on a few years ago (the early Moore years excluded). At the moment, however, nothing has been achieved, apart from us being, possibly, more financially stable (for the time being), with some reason (mostly on paper) to hold out some hope for the future. Apart from that we remain a Third Division club, struggling from one week to the next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 At the moment, however, nothing has been achieved, apart from us being, possibly, more financially stable (for the time being), with some reason (mostly on paper) to hold out some hope for the future. Apart from that we remain a Third Division club, struggling from one week to the next. It's much more of an achievement than any in the decade leading up to TTA though eh? Stick with 'em you might as well see it through now you have put up with the barren years. It will come good, it's just how good which remains to be seen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal_Jones Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 It's much more of an achievement than any in the decade leading up to TTA though eh? Stick with 'em you might as well see it through now you have put up with the barren years. It will come good, it's just how good which remains to be seen! I've never suggested that I won't see it through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch_KTF Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 I've never suggested that I won't see it through. Oh sorry it's just your tone suggested to me that maybe you wouldnt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latics4Ever Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I find it difficult to accept that we are a significantly smaller club than the likes of Barnsley, Blackpool or even Preston and Burnley, let alone Colchester or Scunthorpe. Admittedly, the latter pair are unlikely to survive in the second tier long-term, and perhaps the others too. None of them have exactly rolled over though, particularly Preston and Burnley. You say that, based on our setup and fan base, we are best suited to where we are currently, but if that's what the club settles for the fan base will only decline long term, and the club will stagnate. And ultimately, there is no long-term for full-time professional football at this level if current trends in the game continue. Our only hope is that the stadium generates the income that will enable the club to afford the players capable of getting us into the Championship and staying there. I agree with that, and as an added incentive, once we are established in the Championship I see no reason why we couldn't also concentrate on the League and FA Cups as potential routes into Europe. The majority of the Premier Clubs don't rate the League Cup yet it is an avenue into the Uefa Cup and given the fact a lot of sides have won sweet FA for years it surprises me that they don;t take this more seriously. We have managed to reach the final once, we could do it again if we were an established Championship side. Win it and its a passage to Europe. As for the FA Cup, if you manage to reach the Final (A la Millwall) this would also potentially guarantee a european adventure assuming you were up against a Champions League side (Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool). Obviously the luck of the draw plays a huge part in this as does the fact you need to be successful over the various ties, but it would prove an alternative source of revenue for the club if it could be achieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmnes Posted January 4, 2008 Share Posted January 4, 2008 I agree with that, and as an added incentive, once we are established in the Championship I see no reason why we couldn't also concentrate on the League and FA Cups as potential routes into Europe. The majority of the Premier Clubs don't rate the League Cup yet it is an avenue into the Uefa Cup and given the fact a lot of sides have won sweet FA for years it surprises me that they don;t take this more seriously. We have managed to reach the final once, we could do it again if we were an established Championship side. Win it and its a passage to Europe. As for the FA Cup, if you manage to reach the Final (A la Millwall) this would also potentially guarantee a european adventure assuming you were up against a Champions League side (Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool). Obviously the luck of the draw plays a huge part in this as does the fact you need to be successful over the various ties, but it would prove an alternative source of revenue for the club if it could be achieved. Bored tonight, just read the whole of this thread. There has been some drivel posted, and some very good points. However talked about us being an established Championship side aiming for Europe via the League Cup or being a losing FA Cup finalist? Wow, I want some of your optimism! Fair enough you mention the huge factor of luck in the draw, but even the most established mid-table Premiership sides’ can only dream of such a scenario let alone plan for it! My job means I can't make games for a huge chunk of the season, so after watching us regularly for a few season that all stopped at the end of the last campaign. Attending home games with Moore in charge I remember attending because I didn't want to 'waste' my season ticket rather than looking forward to watch us play. My memories are of us being awful, and for me there is no question we are in better hands and are progressing even if it is 2 steps forward 1 step back with players choosing to move on. With Shez in charge for the next few seasons we do have potential to advance. If it were simple everyone would be a football manager and as many have stated there are only so many half decent players and so many promotion spots! I personally look at the league table and can't help see Leeds and Forest. We have a good record against them, but aren’t on par with or even close in terms of a business or set up. Yet we aren't totally over-shadowed by them. For me supporters of clubs like Huddersfield, Millwall, Crewe and obv Forest and Leeds should have higher expectations than us (not to mention teams like Doncaster and Swansea). I've mentioned more teams there than there are promotion places and I'm not saying I'm happy being stagnant in League One nor am I content with mediocrity but I don't have too many complaints with the clubs current state and ambition. A few more home wins would obviously be welcome, and after our win against Everton, Uefa Cup here we come!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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