oafc0000

Would you vote to join the European Union as it stands and is performing today?

Yes

52-48

No matter who had won on such a margin, IN or OUT... The reality is, nothing is for certain with such a narrow win. We now have exit negotiations, leadership battles and general elections, further independence referendums to deal with now.

OUT had no plan..... We now get to form that plan. Everything to play for to be frank. What OUT looks like could be anything to be frank.

Lib Dems are already going to campaign on a staying in EU ticket etc for example and with 16 million people potentially looking for a voice they might be making a come back. I don't think anything is for certain over the coming years.

I take them at their word that they'll bring about full fiscal union, effectively setting country's budgets from an unelected centre. I think this will lock the problems of the Eurozone even deeper in and I do fear the consequences.

This would require a treaty change and we have a veto available to stop that. We also will still have article 50 still available. So it can only happen if our UK elected body allow it to happen and I don't think there is ANY appetite for this from anyone on any of the political divide. As there is big opposition to such things within the rest of Europe. ~

Considering local democracy and sovereignty is such a big deal to most out campaigners then this should give you some sleep ?

So cool... You can calm down and vote remain now right ?

The problem you have is that Remain isn't the Commission, or the 5 Presidents or the Council of Ministers or Angela Merkel, because all of them are quite clear about where the EU is going, but we're told that if we stay in they'll all see the error of their ways

What are you fearing leeslover ? What do you think they are going to do to you / us ?

Forever the realist, oafc0000.

FTFY

Remain isn't a political party either.

Weak argument...

Cameron - Prime Minister

Osborn - Chancellor of exchequer

Majority of the Tory Cabinate (ruling party)

Majority of the Tory Party (ruling party - I think going off the rough numbers I have seen)

Corybn - Leader of the Labour Party

Farron - Leader of the Lib Dems

Bennett - Leader of the Greens

Sturgeon - Leader of the SNP

Khan - Mayor of London

All for Remain

While its technically true remain is not a party.... the idea the remain side won't retain massive political power if they win is weak... they are accountable... Leave are not...

I would suggest the hurdles to Boris, Gove, IDS and Farage gaining power if they win and being in the position to give things they have promised like no VAT on fuel is extremely difficult.

Do you honestly disagree ?

Vote remain

Not one of the out campaigns arguments stands up to scrutiny.

 

"Leave" are not a political party and, therefore, won't govern the UK on Friday morning.

 

Nor on the Friday morning after the next General Election....

This seems to be lost on a lot of the country... Leaves promises have no substance of accountability... They can say what they want...

Probably because they'd have a lot more competition for his signature...anyway he hasn't kicked a ball for over 2 years so it's a massive gamble for any club.

Not really... Football is one of those sports where its incredibly easy to get back in the swing of things....

Its the more the fact he faces a trail and is possibly a dirty rapist that is more of a gamble...

Bet the meeting was more exciting than the footy!!!!

Doubt it...

They don't know...

I'm waiting for the positive spin man to say that everything is still rosy in the garden, like when Shez left for a lower league club because that's what managers do.

Have you confused me with someone else... I have never been positive....

It's at times like this OAFC0000 usually comes out to play.

I gave up a long time ago mate

Still lurking, still seeing the usual suspects saying "Nothing to see here"...

Its actually the first time in months I have been on and all hell is breaking lose... Or as we call it, business as usual....

Most absurd rule ever brought in.

Hardly...

While I think there was a clear agenda from that bitch Thatcher and it was ultimately a knee jerk and wrong decision. That is all with what we know today.

Back in the 90s while some people where complaining about the loss of standing I don't remember anyone really protesting against it given what had happened. The fact is no body ever died because of seats (unless you want to include the odd trip or other random event). That doesn't mean standing can't be safe either.

So yeah wrong, but it was hardly absurd....

I have always laughed out loud at that comment from the police

Fans behaviour is all shades of grey. What I deemed acceptable behaviour would change from what I did on match day and what I did in a normal walk of life. You don't recognise that change it all? Now I come to realise what I deemed "acceptable" on those Saturdays was actually quite horrible and I was hardly any sort of trouble maker or bad egg.

No doubt some people attend a Football match the same way someone might attend the Cinema, in a very calm and respectful manner. I think for a lot of fans though its closer to my experience and there behaviour is distinctly different on a match day. It create a sort of fire in your belly.

This is way off topic about Hillsborough now. Those fans had nothing to do with the disaster and I don't want anyone making any more stupid links between what I am saying above and the disaster. Its disrespectful to the families if nothing else and disrespectful to me as its clear I placer NO blame on the fans. NONE. They are very separate chains of thoughts.

Word twisting alert ^^^^

But to answer your point directly... No, supporting a football team doesn't inevitably mean you become a hate filled animal... I am simply saying taking a break from being a supporter certainly opened my eyes to some of my previous behaviour as a fan and I am actually quite ashamed about it. Some of the things I used to feel. Some of the things I used to think. Some of the songs I used to sing. I can't even put it down to youth! Its all just utterly bazzare to me now.

It would be hard to argue it doesn't have an effect on some people following a club. Look at the comments from Pine Villians above and others. Or does Liverpool fans rightly not being blamed for the Hillsborough disaster mean that football fans are now only saints and all of footballs problems are in the past and anyone thinking different is as bad as the c**ts at South Yorkshire Police ? Interesting....

The tribalism we see in the game and what it leads to is still a big problem. Some of the hatred is outstanding. Its to the point where some people can't see beyond the lies spun by the police because they simply "hate" Liverpool fans. Are you really saying you don't see the issue ? There are a number of examples just clicks away.

I really think there are very few people attending games at the weekend who are not affected by this tribalism to some level. The way some people would view someone totally changes if you change the environment to a football match and put a different coloured shirt on their backs.

Yeah, it takes not going for 6 years to make you think like a reasonable human being.

It would seem so

 

Good luck with that

After you spend sometime away from the heat of supporting a club every day... You come to realise how hating someone from the next town along just because they watch a different football team is just utterly weird....

I'm not sure what they should be more proud of, causing the deaths of 96 people then systematically lying about it for nearly 3 decades, or not bothering to investigate children being raped in Rotherham.

Apparently catching the Yorkshire ripper makes up for it all...

Wasn't there a big crash on the motorway leading to a lot of Liverpool fans turning up late? Hence the problem of the crowding at the gate that hadn't been seen at games previous,

Read this morning and thought of your comment...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

 

 

Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets'

After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground.

What we know: The claim formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [sYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police.

While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, the inquest was told evidence suggested it was actually the "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush.

The jury heard evidence from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off.

The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground.

Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans arriving at Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan".

He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.

He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".

The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.

What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

Hillsborough inquests: Retired South Yorkshire Police officers 'proud' of force - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36156906

They really give zero :censored:s don't they...

Vivid memories...

I went to the game with my Dad. Got home to a pretty upset mum who had been out shopping and just heard about deaths at a match. No internet back then so mums being mums started to worry it might be us even though she had heard it was at the semi final.... All got home about the same time and then learn't about it via the TV. We had heard at the match about some "trouble" at the semi final but I didn't know more. Not sure if my dad was just trying to protect me from it. Really messed my head up to be honest and found it very scary. Its blatantly obvious it could of easily have been us, or any football fan.

Was it the next day the Scum printed the photos of the fans crushed against the fences. Wished I had never seen those photos. You can't unsee them

Wasn't there a big crash on the motorway leading to a lot of Liverpool fans turning up late? Hence the problem of the crowding at the gate that hadn't been seen at games previous,

Fans turning up late due to a motorway delay was hardly unusual... The speed at which the turnstile could admit people and the way the police didn't manage the crowds made it a none issue anyway....

Maybe you should start with the two years of gathered evidence. Your mind or experiences are not required. All the hard work has been done for you.

You are just very actively ignoring and remaining intentionally ignorant on the matter. Not sure why...