League one forever

4 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

I thought Dave's question was loaded - essentially saying "we can all see it, we should play 2 up top, do you see it now?". If Dave had asked him about whether he'd prefer to play 2 if more strikers were fit or something like that I think we'd have heard a less spiky answer.

That’s exactly what it was. Mellon knows what Dave is implying, (while he gives them free content) and put him in his place a bit. 
 

No issue there. 

With Dave - he always been spikey. As was Unsworth. Matt and Andy are more balanced and bigger picture. Dave just says what he is feeling.
 

Matt said Mellon had collered Dave after the predication pod and Said- ‘was it you who predicated 11th’ Dave said yeah and he replied ‘we’ll see’ so there is a subtext to their conversation’s. Mellon knows Dave doesn’t really rate him or his football, so is giving a bit back. I have no problem with that. If the pod think they criticise and he should give them content without giving Dave some back, that’s naive. 
 

I do think it’s poor when Mellon has done it with Alan- who is very courteous and respectful and never asks anything to invasive. But he still gets smart arsed replies on occasion. No need. 

47 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

You’re making assumptions I’d be happy with a mid-table finish while we get our shit together. That’s not the case. If we’re floundering in mid-table and 12 points off a play off place mid season then I don’t think the board would put up with that

Agreed.

50 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

Last season was a write off anyway. He made the assessment very early on. We just didn’t have the players - the midfield - to sustain a tilt at promotion. The fact we got to the fringes of it and fell away probably, in hindsight (ha!) was false hope. It was always about steadying the ship and taking the time to suss out who would go forward with us and who would be canned.

Mmmm. Is 35 games a period of time to steady the ship, or is it more than enough time to implement your ideas, and have a way of playing instilled in the side. (Even if results aren’t quite there) That will pay off down the line. I suppose this season will attest to that. If we do well, you can look back to last year as steadying the ship. If we tail off it looks and feels like a repeat of last year. . 
 

54 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

This season the aim has to be a play-off berth and continuous improvement. Whilst we lie just outside it, we’re not far wrong and we’re displaying the germ of a solid home record (I know, I know, it’s not always exciting). 

Yep, fair enough. 

14 minutes ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

 

It is unneccessary pressure at this stage of the season IMO. We're literally just sat outside the play-offs and two back-to-back wins would see us firmly within it. The noise of "if we don't win next match, the season's over" builds that unnessasary pressure. Like you say, it's a small minority but it quickly builds. And before you know it we're dismantling another manager's team for a new face who'll want his own team in.

 

 

My barometer's laced with realism. I understood the scale of the task MM had last season and so far I'm satisfied the calibre and quality of player we're signing is starting to feel much more consistant. Monthe, Charsley and Ogle have more than lived up to promise and I do think MM will get more out of some of the existing lot he's inherited. I see where we're at as phase one of the rebirth. Make us a tough nut to crack and phase two is where that foundation puts you in good stead to break teams down more frequently. Given the majority of his signings are midfield and forward players, there is still an element of gelling time these need.

 

 

I dunno. A myriad of reasons I guess? We perhaps caught Braintree on the hop with a fast start and we were gifted a couple of goals which relaxed everyone, including the crowd, really quickly. Perhaps better teams work out a plan of subduing us in early parts of the game? Perhaps MM is still working out his best midfield combinations and will sooner-or-later find that magic formula?

 

 

I agree, it's not. But I don't feel we're too far from turning OK into decent.

All very fair, and balanced.

Just don’t think I’m as patient as you, because if I follow your phase 1 to phase 2 thinking. Then on his current trajectory that’s at least two seasons in the making IMO.

So in essence he gets this season to keep rebuilding, without really needing to challenge.  I don’t agree with that, because it’s too much of a free pass. 
 

Last season he didn’t win a game in the last ten and two wins would’ve got us in. If he doesn’t really improve on that (top 5) then he doesn’t warrant another year because to my mind he is just doing ok again. 
 

The nub of it, is this. When he was brought in do you think the club said - rebuild us and just get us promoted by the last year of your contract. I don’t. I think they said get us promoted asap please. 
 

34 minutes ago, Littlemoor Lad said:

After the complete shambles of the previous appointment and the subsequent related costs incurred,

I can't see them being over willing to admit another own goal, can you?

No, that’s why I’m saying it would have to be really poor/ well below expectations for them to pull the plug. 

1 hour ago, Littlemoor Lad said:

I think they'll honour his full contract, fan power won't work on this one.

Mmmm- to a point. 

As long as he’s in touching distance of the playoffs the club will stick with him. If we’re bottom half at Christmas and drifting to 10/12 points from the playoffs I could see them making a change. But it’s moot- because we won’t that bad. 

Just now, dannyboy55555 said:

I've only been to the Fylde game this season so many of you are better positioned to comment, but surely we have to give him some time to get it right. It's very early days in the season. 

The club won’t sack him in the season (nor should they) unless it’s a disaster.

They might make a change at the end of season if we don’t make the playoffs. Which I think is a possibility. 
 

He just needs to translate what he saying in interviews into performances from players, and we’ll be fine.
 

The debate is, can he?

Just now, Lee Sinnott said:

You've spent the last two months telling us you can see what he's trying to do and that we are improving...

You’ve just made that up because you’re still sore about us beating ‘the worst side we’ve ever played’ Braintree (who aren’t in the bottom four and have only lost twice) 

Back in the real world, you call what you see. For the first 3 games our performances were very good. Since then we are very patchy to say the least.  My views will change according to performances and results- that’s the fickle nature of football and judging managers. 
 

I’d also much rather judge on what I see, than hate a manager before a ball is kicked, because he played for a rival 30 years ago. That is weird.

12 minutes ago, Londonboy said:

We really are miles off it at the moment.

 

The average number of games won over the past 4 seasons to finish top of the NL is 30 so a 65% win rate.

The average number of games won by teams finishing between 2nd and 7th over the past 4 seasons is 22 so a 48% win rate.

Our win rate the last 2 seasons has been 35% and 33%....

We are currently at 28%.

 

These are just the plain facts. 

I'd say both Unsworth and Mellon have underachieved big time based on the budgets and support they have been given.

Yes both under difficult circumstances but still an underachievement.

 

Big 3 months ahead I think for the club.

Exactly. 
 

DU was just shit, are you underachieving if you’re not very good in the first place? 
 

But Mellon is a completely different story. His CV speaks for itself, it’s why he was hired. 
 

For a manager of his calibre and CV to not have the identity he says he wants in the team after a year. . .

You have to say is poor. 

32 minutes ago, Worcester Owl said:

I was replying to @yarddog73 on another thread about Lee Johnson and his win% and I'm afraid it's sent me into nerd mode so I've looked at the win % (league games only) of all our managers from Powerpoint Man onwards, to give a bit of context to the debate on MM.

                                  Games Win %

Steve Thompson         6       50.00

Pete Wild*                   15      46.67

John Sheridan**         22     40.91

Lee Johnson               103    34.95

Harry Kewell               32      34.38

Micky Mellon              38      34.21

Frankie Bunn              24      33.33

John Sheridan***       31      32.26

David Unsworth         46      30.43

Dino Maamria             28      28.57

Richie Wellens            37      27.03

John Sheridan****     30      26.67

Keith Curle                  32      25.00

Dean Holden               15      20.00

Darren Kelly                 7       14.29

Paul Scholes                7       14.29

Stephen Robinson      24      12.50

David Dunn                  17       11.76

Laurent Banide             9        11.11

Selim Benachour          7        0.00

* agggregate of two spells as both were in the same season

** Jan - May 2016

*** Jan - Sep 2017

**** Jan - Sep 2022

 

20 managers in 10 years, absolutely incredible. There are some absolute turkeys in that list, not helped of course by Corney's later years and then the Chuckle Brothers. If we ignore Thompson, who only had 6 games, then MM is 5th on the list. His win % was far more impressive but as @yarddog73 and others have pointed out, 2 wins from the last 18 is really poor. I'm for sticking with MM but the pressure on him will soon be ratcheting up if he doesn't start winning games very soon. That said, and to state the obvious, there's not much point changing managers every few months if you can't find a successful one! 

           

Good post. 
 

I do understand the argument for building with a manager, and in an ideal world I’d love Mellon or any other manager to be with us 4/5 years and take us through the leagues. 
 

But two things have to happen. 
 

You need see a gradual improvement in results. (Still mixed overall)

And therefore. 
 

You need to see a consistency in performance that you will give you the belief that results will improve. (Our performance’s are patchy) 

He’s been here a year- and done ok. 
 

Everything he says and repeats in interviews I agree with, but the same patterns are there so where do you go from there? MM is identifying exactly what we need but it isn’t happening. . . 
 

How long is ok- ok? 
 

3 minutes ago, Bobledgersheart said:

The lack of urgency is highlighted when Raglan and Hudson do their version of the Chuckle Brothers when taking goal kicks. 

Or when Conlon and Lundstram continuously look for the safe pass, usually backwards or sideways. 
 

Our only two midfielders who play a forward pass are Gardener and Charsley. The former can’t play every week and the latter is out injured. 

1 hour ago, yarddog73 said:

Would Sheron be the answer? Of course he wouldn't he's a limited player, what we need though is these players with more ability ie Conlon, Dolan, Kay, Lundstrum to show a similar desire to play and influence a game, get on the ball, look for the pass, play with some flair but also play with the grit required to dominate a game, I've left Gardner out because he just can't get about the same anymore and I feel he's giving his best which is all you can ask, are the rest?, I'm not really sure.

That’s a good point. 
 

If they got the maximum out of their ability they’re all better than Sheron.
 

But we are yet to see it, and his goals, drive, willingness to run are showing them up thus far. 

19 minutes ago, TheBigDog said:

MM has a number of very experienced players on the pitch (Conlon, Raglan, Monthe, Norwood) - I think they should be ensuring that the team play with that urgency and further up the pitch

Agreed. 
 

We also have a manager who knows what good looks like. 
 

Lots of experienced players, very experienced manager. Yet we don’t consistently do the basics. 

8 minutes ago, whittles left foot said:

Sheron, many on here thought he was the problem despite scoring 7 goals. Has Lundstram ever looked like scoring since he joined?

Nope. 
 

Neither has Conlon. 
 

People can scream and shout as much as they like; as Oldham players- Sheron has affected far more games than both of them put together. 
 

3 hours ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

refreshingly clear of the ludicrous histronics that pollute this messageboard,

They’re 3 or 4 who revel in it. 99% of us ignore them for what they are, and they in no way reflect the majority of this board. Those who look for loads of positives despite what they watch is as frustrating as ‘everything shit’
 

3 hours ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

Draw, draw, draw, WIN has a sense of progress and a sign we're hard to beat. Draw, draw, draw, LOSS looks and feels bad and builds uneccessary (because it is, at this stage) pressure

So. . winning helps; losing and drawing to many builds pressure. Who knew? 
 

Losing and drawing isn’t unnecessary pressure, it’s what happens at every club. Mellon or any manager can’t be given times without results. It’s that simple. 
 

3 hours ago, Frankly Mr Shankly said:

I felt on Saturday, particularly at home, we're seeing progress, consistancy and some much needed character. Making comparisons to last season (and the one before) is unavoidable but most often, when we fell a goal behind, it meant only one result; defeat.

What is your barometer for progression? 
 

You mention character. If it’s so improved- Why is it that after the first 3 games we can’t play for ninety minutes? Why do we start slow and improve, or start well and fade. Why do we play well in spells of half an hour or one half. Now, there were times last season we didn’t even do that. But what are we saying? It’s better now, because at least we don’t completely fold and we at least get a draw! It’s not enough. How about we start on the front foot and play at tempo EVERY. SINGLE. GAME. 
 

I’m not bored of not winning, I’m used to it. I am really bored of drifting in and out of games- plodding along and clutching at straws. The fact I can remember 4 or 5 ninety minute performances in 18 months is both really sad and really telling. 

We’re doing ok. But after two years of serious investment- ok isn’t good enough. 

I’m not overly concerned with results at this stage, there is loads of time to catch up. 
 

After a good start in terms of performance. I am becoming concerned with the old patterns emerging. 
 

Can’t consistently play for ninety minutes. 
 

Start slow, then improve. 
 

Start well, tail off. 
 

Lack of pressing as a team.
 

Slow in possession at times. 
 

Slow to move the ball from back to front. 
 

No midfielder who will carry the ball and break the lines. 
 

These characteristics were present last season, and are creeping back in. 
 

24 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

This is a question I have no idea the answer to as I don’t watch enough other games!.. how often do promotion teams at this level put in 90 minute performances?

 

Also, what constitutes one? It doesn’t seem realistic to have a game where the opposition doesn’t have at least a short spell of good play where they look the better team. 

Fylde at home was a ninety performance. We drew, that’s football. 

But. 
 

We were on the front from the first whistle, our tempo was very good and we moved the ball quickly from back to front; we missed two good chances, and they get a goal against the run of play. Ah well, shit happens but at least we’ve played on the front foot. Second half we come out firing again, got our equaliser and then they came more into it and had a good chance towards the end which we defended well. 
 

Of course games will ebb and flow and you can’t dominate every game unless you’re far superior (which we’re not) but you can press, you can move the ball quickly in possession. There are basic fundamentals that go into a full game performance. If you keep doing that, good things happen. If you start slow, don’t press as a team, and look slow in possession; but then improve and play well for half an hour. Your results will reflect that. 
 

MM has had a year in charge and I count on one hand the amount of games we’re at it for the full game. The vast majority of his tenure is playing well in spells, and doing ok. Some good parts, some bad parts. How many clubs get promoted playing in spells. . 

12 minutes ago, nzlatic said:

What I expect from this season is consistently good performances. In among that you’ll have bad results. But we shouldn’t have many games where we’re shit. 
 

I thought yesterday was our poorest effort of this season. But still a marked improvement on the majority of performances last season. 
 

What we need now is to have a relatively settled team. I liked the midfield 4 in the early games. But since those 2 wins I don’t think we’ve kept the same 4 from one game to the next. And I don’t think we’ve played the same 4 we played in those games since. 

Yeah, chopping and changing the midfield is a bit mystery. (Other than resting Gardener, but again why resign someone you have to rotate and thus unsettling the building of partnerships) Charsley is out now, which is a massive blow and we’ll miss his legs and energy. 
 

We’re not getting consistently good performances though? We’ve had three 90 minute performances for the first 3 games, followed up with playing really well for half an hour or one half. Is that acceptable? Feels like we’re saying- at least we’re playing well in spells. (Which is true, but I don’t think it’s to demanding to say can we turn up for longer than half hour) 

Patchy performance’s lead to patchy results. 
 

90 Minute performance’s lead to good results. 
 

8 minutes ago, AndyB2 said:

the blame lies firmly at the door or whoever sanctioned shit recruitment last season. mellon inherited that and he doesn’t have the funds available to address it. The limitations of the current squad is unsworths legacy

 There’s truth in this, and it is a factor in getting the full squad he wants. 
 

But half the squad is his. 
 

Maloney

Caprice

Jes

ogle

Manny

Conlon

Charsley

Gardener 

Khan

Kay

Garner

Mikey

The point being, any gaps in the squad are still a choice. 
 

Should Gardener have been resigned instead of signing someone more box to box. Who has much better legs to press. 
 

Should Garner have been signed when we already have a prolific old head up front. 
 

Should Mikey of been resigned when he isn’t Prolific enough. 
 

Should you sign Caprice when you have Kitch on the books. 
 

He keeps saying, we lack tempo or we don’t move the ball quick enough. (Which is correct we don’t) Well a lot of his signings play most weeks and we still don’t play at tempo. So either they’re not listening, or they’re still recruiting a squad make up that isn’t fit enough
 

2 minutes ago, Lee Sinnott said:

Sounds like someone has forgotten the win against the mighty Braintree Town...

The mighty have fallen away since the best performance of the season. 

44 minutes ago, AndyB2 said:

We aren’t going to do a chesterfield and will look shit a lot of the time. Thats inevitable for a L5 team. 

I don’t expect a chesterfield, but I definitely want more than - ‘we’ll be shit a lot of time’ If that’s the case we should still make 7th, but that’s just plodding along and doing ok.

Ok is not good enough this season. 

Is anyone else starting to think it’s another season of mediocre/ok? 
 

IE - top 10. 
 

I’m desperate to jump on the bandwagon of us nearly being there. . but as Micky says- I watch with my eyes. 
 

We had three ninety minute performance’s for three games. 
 

Since then, we play in spells, we desperately lack consistent tempo. We tend to start one of either half slow. I watch us think and we’re just an ok side. 
 

Just feels like Groundhog Day, and the stat about us not being any further forward than under Shez feels really pertinent to me. 

Another game where we only look ok/decent for 45 minutes. 
 

Again we lack tempo and spend to much time plodding through the game 
 

Without Charsley it’s the same the midfield deemed not good last season. . . 
 

Lack of striking options really biting us in the arse. 
 

Getting harder to defend Mellon when the same patterns keep emerging.
 

Starting to feel like it’s just - can we a bit less shit than the oppo rather than can we dominate. 

Will we be ok? Yes.

Is ok good enough. No. 

Charsley (arguably our best player and biggest difference in midfield) is off injured. 
 

That leaves the same midfield that was derided last season as not good enough. . . 

2 hours ago, AndyB2 said:

You understand what a jury being out means don’t you? 

Being not convinced is a decision you’ve made after 6 games. . and is no different to somebody thinking it will click in time after 6 games.