Guest M_OAFC Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) Apologies to the mods for starting a new thread on an existing subject but I hope you will make an exception in order to ensure that as many people as possible read this because I desperately want people to help out with this. I had never met Lee till I ended up sat near him yesterday but he came across as a quiet and very mild mannered young lad and certainly didn't convey the image of a trouble causer. Anyway I was one of the people that ended up putting him up last night and my sister and I were sat beside him and 'Latics & England' on the back row of the stand. Whenever you hear of incidents like this there is always a temptation to think that although the fan has been harshly done to he must have done a little bit of something wrong even if it was only trivial, and I must admit I am probably as guilty of that as anyone. But on this occasion please let me assure you that Lee had done absolutely nothing wrong what so ever, this was a miscarriage of justice in its purest form. Early in the game a steward spoke collectively to several rows of fans at the back of the stand asking us all to sit down. We duly did so although Latics & England, without being abusive in any way, did register a protest about the fact that the Colchester fans were doing the same and no stewards were anywhere to be seen speaking to them, before he too sat down. His dialogue with the steward was the only instance during that particular episode of a conversation between a steward and a specific individual supporter. The stewards responded to Latics & England's protest by then asking the Colchester fans to sit down as well. From that point onwards the only times that Lee, or anybody else in my vicinity, stood up were at times when nigh on the entire stand rose to their feet because of a serious goalscoring opportunity, which given that regulations allow standing at moments of excitement, is perfectly permissable anyway. The last occasion on which Lee did so, the one immediately prior to him being approached by the stewards, lasted about 20 seconds and was to berate our defence immediately after Colchester's second goal. Well if a goal isn't a moment of excitement I don't know what is so it is a mystery as to why they asked him to come in to the isle to speak to them in the first place. Well, I say a mystery, but my sister and I were both of the opinion that it was a case of mistaken identity. As I mentioned previously Latics & England had already had a one on one conversation with a steward. Later in the game a steward also spoke to him individually to tell him that he wasn't allowed to take photos of the game. Incidentally the manner in which he was told this was more akin to the way you would expect to be spoken to if you had just slaughtered a baby. I think all fans are aware of the rule about standing but the stewards ought be sensible enough to realise that most fans are not going to know they can't take photos and therefore a polite word just pointing out the existence of this regulation would have been a far less antagonising and much more professional manner in which to deal with the incident. Anyway, Latics & England duly put his camera away. As I have explained, the two conversations Latics & England had with a steward were not on account of any disorderly behaviour so there is no reason why they should have 'raised his profile' so to speak but knowing what some stewards can be like no doubt the fact that he'd had these two individual conversations with them meant that his 'card was marked' for want of a better phrase, all be it unnecessarily, and my sister and I believe that when the stewards came to speak to Lee just prior to the assault they might have thought they were speaking to him for the third time that day given that he was sat right beside Latics & England. My sister and I can offer no other explanation as to why they could possibly have decided they wanted to speak to Lee because absolutely nothing at all happened! He did nothing wrong all match, it's as simple as that. Neither did Latics & England for that matter, but as I said you know what stewards can be like and just the fact they had spoken to him about any subject at all might have highlighted him. Anyway, when asked to step into the isle to speak to the 3 stewards that approached him Lee calmy and politely enquired as to what he was supposed to have done wrong, as indeed did many other people in the vicinity including myself. He was given no answer to that question and the stewards simply instructed him again, this time in a more aggressive tone, to come in to the isle to speak to them. Lee duly obliged and just as he got there we scored our first goal at which point Lee raised his arms in celebration. I can assure you all that there is not a chance this gesture could in any way have been misinterpreted as a form of aggression by the stewards. They were only supposed to have wanted to speak to him at the time and did not have hold of him or anything like that, his arms were nowhere near them. Then, with no words at all having been exchanged a steward brutally manhandled Lee to the bottom of the steps like a rag doll, at the bottom of which he was comprehensively assaulted. And make no mistake, this was not just a case of a fan being ejected in over zealous fashion, this was a deliberate assault involving the infliction of deliberate physical harm when there was absolutely no need to do so. Throughout the assault Lee did nothing more than try to stay on his feet and displayed no aggression towards the steward. That Lee has since been charged with assaulting the steward in question and issued with a formal reprimand for doing so is an absolutely shocking miscarriage of justice. Lee has confirmed that he wants to take the matter further and please please please can I implore those of you that either witnessed the incident or have some useful knowledge about the appropriate manner in which to rectify the injustice, to provide him with your support. I know it is tempting to think "I can't be bothered writing a letter" or "what's the point it won't change anything" etc but if we always adopt that attitude then we as football fans will continue to run the risk of being treated in this disgraceful fashion and a man that has commited a criminal offence will get away with it whilst Lee is left with an undeserved reprimand on his record. I presume that any official complaint of assault will need to come from Lee which I'm sure he will do but if those of you that saw the incident can also write letters of complaint to the relevant parties then hopefully it will help them realise that this an issue that needs addressing and cannot simply be forgotten about. I'm sure somebody on here will be able to advise as to who we should be writing to. I'm sure Colchester United will be one of them but should we also be writing to the likes of Essex police, the company that employs the stewards if it isn't the football club, possibly even the police complaints commission etc? Please can somebody advise. As a body that represents the supporters, and particularly given that the incident was witnessed at clsoe quaters by at least two Trust directors, I will also be asking that the Trust registers a complaint on Lee's behalf and I hope that OAFC will be supportive as well and so I would urge people to copy both those organisations in on any letters/emails you write in order to make them properly aware of the depth of feeling on the matter. Also, the CCTV footage of the incident would be an invaluable piece of evidence. Can anybody advise as to how Lee can go about acquiring it? And if somebody with good knowledge of the procedure can also advise Lee about the most appropriate way to deal with registering his own complaint of assault I'm sure he'd appreciate that too. Thanks in advance to all of you that are able to help in any way. The incident with Lee was the worst but certainly not the only example of simply dire stewarding yesterday. If you didn't know better you'd have thought they wanted confrontation and if they couldn't get any then they would make sure they antagonised everybody enough to get some. Talk about making you own job harder! From the word go they just had the most confrontational approach I've ever come across, it was like they were expecting you to cause trouble. In stark contrast all the Colchester fans we spoke to were a very friendly bunch. I hope for their sake that the method of stewarding at their ground is seriously reviewed because if they adopt the kind of approach we saw yesterday for every visiting club I can promise you there will be a riot before the season is out and very few away fans in attendance next year. Edited August 31, 2008 by M_OAFC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 you should contact alan hardy about the incident Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_b_100 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 The problem with the stewarding is the 'recruitment' of them, mostly by private companies that have no connection to the club at all. In Manchester they use showsec ... a private firm that only people with 'door badges' can join. So basically they are wanna be or are club doormen and security staff. In my opinion this directly influences the current increse in incidents. write to CU and find out which firm they use. Then issue a formal complaint to Essex police. If you want to (as I complete witness statements to the police for a living) I will help Lee write a formal statement of what happened and then witness statements from all close bystanders to present to the police. I have the official forms and it should only take an hour or so. These statements are based soley on FACT and are not for artisic license. I will gladly help though .. pm me and we can arrange to meet somewhere in Oldham. I will also get advice from GM police on how to have the caution removed. Pm me your e mail addresses and I will pass on my mobile. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Apologies to the mods for starting a new thread on an existing subject but I hope you will make an exception in order to ensure that as many people as possible read this because I desperately want people to help out with this. Not a problem mate. As for the CCTV, I'm sure it's only the party that own (or the individual responsible for) the device , and persons authorised involved in a criminal investigation than can legally view the footage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I've been in touch with Lee and he has accepted my offer to help him and his family with the case. I have a longstanding personal interest and involvement in civil liberties issues and the like (the traditional sort that means an Englishman can go about his business without restraint, not the arse sort that let's gypsies crap on your lawn) and various media and political contacts and knowledge, so I am happy to help coordinate the effort. Any people with special knowledge (legal etc) please chip in! Targets will include: Essex Police Our police Police Complaints Commission (probably the key one - they will take a complaint seriously with no sweeping beneath the carpet) Various Supporters organisations and umbrella groups (including Colchester's) - Mark, you seem the ideal man to go with this? Lee's MP My MP (as the same could have happened to me) The FA The Football League They stupidly and incorrectly tried to make an example of Lee, I think we should make an example of them and try to get some good out of the nasty episode. I saw every single thing that Mark outlined above, except I didn't see what went on immediately after we scored the goal. Please all try to focus on what you yourself saw rather than what you heard about or read, as that is all that you can testify to in good faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boboafc Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 one thing with those people you tell them their stewards and have certain right's etc the power goes to their small heads and they act like police and think they can boss you around , you give someone a uniform and power goes to their heads . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_b_100 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Im sure under the data protection act you can request any personal data recorded for public saftey ... but I doubt that will be of use anyway... it wouldnt record the voices ... leading to .. well he said this . !! and cant be disproved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Not a problem mate. As for the CCTV, I'm sure it's only the party that own (or the individual responsible for) the device , and persons authorised involved in a criminal investigation than can legally view the footage. I don't think that's quite right Matt - you are entitled to anything that is held that has personal information about you, which certainly includes your image on film. You or I couldn't demand the footage except any bits that we happened to be in, but Lee can. A letter quoting the Freedom of Information Act and a tenner should do the trick, and if they don't divvy up within 20 days then it's over to the Onbudsman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I don't think that's quite right Matt - you are entitled to anything that is held that has personal information about you, which certainly includes your image on film. You or I couldn't demand the footage except any bits that we happened to be in, but Lee can. A letter quoting the Freedom of Information Act and a tenner should do the trick, and if they don't divvy up within 20 days then it's over to the Onbudsman. Ah, fair do's Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsLee Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 ************ is the one who i "Assulted" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Im sure under the data protection act you can request any personal data recorded for public saftey ... but I doubt that will be of use anyway... it wouldnt record the voices ... leading to .. well he said this . !! and cant be disproved True Andy - but as Diego showed, they can only issue a caution legitimately if thy have sufficient evidence to geta prosecution, ie beyond reasonable doubt. The missing area that you describe is covered only by the word of the Stewards who were there, and the people who saw it first, including a silver-haired (retired) local official of long standing and his lady wife, a management consultant with a top City firm, a Director of the Oldham Trust, a London University facilities manager, an Australian Psychologist with no interest in football who was there to take notes on behavioural patterns, and many other people of perfectly good standing and reputation. And me. I'm not saying that the above list should make any difference, but they can't just make it out to be a group of yobs backing each other up. Sounds like your skills will be a key weapon anyway Are you "Mr Speak To the Coppers," officer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardlelatic Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 yep he does have the name of the steward on his police paperwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 ************ is the one who i "Assulted" If you don't mind Lee I've blocked out his name, there may be people who'll take it upon themselves to hunt this guy down - this will not help your case. Can I urge everybody to show some restraint, and trust the nominated peoples to deal with the issues. If they need for our input I'm sure they will ask for it. There is nothing wrong with talking about the issue on here, but official liaisons must be kept to the nominees. Cheers folks, Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaticsLee Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 If you don't mind Lee I've blocked out his name, there may be people who'll take it upon themselves to hunt this guy down - this will not help your case. Can I urge everybody to show some restraint, and trust the nominated peoples to deal with the issues. If they need for our input I'm sure they will ask for it. There is nothing wrong with talking about the issue on here, but official liaisons must be kept to the nominees. Cheers folks, Matt. yeah no worrys mate . its on the other post awell if you want to block that out aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 The problem with the stewarding is the 'recruitment' of them, mostly by private companies that have no connection to the club at all. In Manchester they use showsec ... a private firm that only people with 'door badges' can join. So basically they are wanna be or are club doormen and security staff. In my opinion this directly influences the current increse in incidents. write to CU and find out which firm they use. Then issue a formal complaint to Essex police. If you want to (as I complete witness statements to the police for a living) I will help Lee write a formal statement of what happened and then witness statements from all close bystanders to present to the police. I have the official forms and it should only take an hour or so. These statements are based soley on FACT and are not for artisic license. I will gladly help though .. pm me and we can arrange to meet somewhere in Oldham. I will also get advice from GM police on how to have the caution removed. Pm me your e mail addresses and I will pass on my mobile. Andy Thanks mate. I'll pm you my email address now. You might want to pm Lee himself (LaticsLee), Leeslover, Wardlelatic, Latics & England and Diego's Sideburns and ask for their email addresses as well because not only were they all witnesses but I know they are all very keen that this matter is followed up. If the consensus is that these witness statements are a good idea then I'll happily meet you in Oldham as you suggest and tell you what I saw. Thanks again mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_b_100 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 True Andy - but as Diego showed, they can only issue a caution legitimately if thy have sufficient evidence to geta prosecution, ie beyond reasonable doubt. The missing area that you describe is covered only by the word of the Stewards who were there, and the people who saw it first, including a silver-haired (retired) local official of long standing and his lady wife, a management consultant with a top City firm, a Director of the Oldham Trust, a London University facilities manager, an Australian Psychologist with no interest in football who was there to take notes on behavioural patterns, and many other people of perfectly good standing and reputation. And me. I'm not saying that the above list should make any difference, but they can't just make it out to be a group of yobs backing each other up. Sounds like your skills will be a key weapon anyway Are you "Mr Speak To the Coppers," officer? I am mate yes ... Willing to help and argue a mean case . Although there is no mention of on what grounds the caution was given or accepted. I suspect it wasnt a conditional caution.... no banning order etc so they didnt really have any evidence other than the words of a professional steward and colleages who will have no doubt done this several times before. Im really glad he is making a stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Not a problem mate. Thanks for that, appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I've been in touch with Lee and he has accepted my offer to help him and his family with the case. I have a longstanding personal interest and involvement in civil liberties issues and the like (the traditional sort that means an Englishman can go about his business without restraint, not the arse sort that let's gypsies crap on your lawn) and various media and political contacts and knowledge, so I am happy to help coordinate the effort. Any people with special knowledge (legal etc) please chip in! Targets will include: Essex Police Our police Police Complaints Commission (probably the key one - they will take a complaint seriously with no sweeping beneath the carpet) Various Supporters organisations and umbrella groups (including Colchester's) - Mark, you seem the ideal man to go with this? Lee's MP My MP (as the same could have happened to me) The FA The Football League They stupidly and incorrectly tried to make an example of Lee, I think we should make an example of them and try to get some good out of the nasty episode. I saw every single thing that Mark outlined above, except I didn't see what went on immediately after we scored the goal. Please all try to focus on what you yourself saw rather than what you heard about or read, as that is all that you can testify to in good faith. Thanks Andy, superb work. And I'm happy to take on the role you suggest. I'll try to get some letters drafted one night through the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec1954 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 "The problem with the stewarding is the 'recruitment' of them, mostly by private companies that have no connection to the club at all. In Manchester they use showsec ... a private firm that only people with 'door badges' can join. " Can I just say that my daughter worked for Showsec, as student, and has never been anywhere near "door badges". She is did it to help pay her student debt during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_b_100 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 "The problem with the stewarding is the 'recruitment' of them, mostly by private companies that have no connection to the club at all. In Manchester they use showsec ... a private firm that only people with 'door badges' can join. " Can I just say that my daughter worked for Showsec, as student, and has never been anywhere near "door badges". She is did it to help pay her student debt during the summer. I was asked for mine prior to an application. I mean no disrespect to the company, however I know several infact over 30 doormen in thier employ. You dont need one to work the MEN or in car parks, however for public events like matchday stewarding it is a pre requisite before interview Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest M_OAFC Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 (edited) I am mate yes ... Willing to help and argue a mean case . Although there is no mention of on what grounds the caution was given or accepted. I suspect it wasnt a conditional caution.... no banning order etc so they didnt really have any evidence other than the words of a professional steward and colleages who will have no doubt done this several times before. Im really glad he is making a stand. He was told to sign a document accepting the reprimand. He wasn't happy about that but was told by the police that if he didn't he wouldn't be going home for at least a week! If we could prove that I reckon the police complaints commission would be very interested in that but I suppose it's virtually impossible to prove. However, surely it can be over turned if overwhelming evidence to the contrary, including CCTV footage, can be produced. Even if it can't, I'm sure it doesn't preclude justice from being served upon the steward. It certainly doesn't stop us pursuing a change in stewarding policy at CUFC. Edited August 31, 2008 by M_OAFC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 He was told to sign a document accepting the reprimand. He wasn't happy about that but was told by the police that if he didn't he wouldn't be going home for at least week! If we could prove that I reckon the police complaints commission would be very interested in that but I suppose it's virtually impossible to prove. However, surely it can be over turned if overwhelming evidence to the contrary, including CCTV footage, can be produced. Even if it can't, I'm sure it doesn't preclude justice from being served upon the steward. It certainly doesn't stop us pursuing a change in stewarding policy at CUFC. I suggest our objectives should be: 1) A quashing of the caution, including the destruction of any records that could taint Lee with a slur on his reputation 2) Appropriate Police and Club action regarding the Stewards who committed the assault. 3) A full and public apology by the parties involved 4) Some publicity that highlights the insane treatment that football fans are dealt with. We won't achieve all of the above, but let's see how far we can get. But the main thing is that one of our own shouldn't have that hanging over his head when he was the victim, not the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_b_100 Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 He was told to sign a document accepting the reprimand. He wasn't happy about that but was told by the police that if he didn't he wouldn't be going home for at least week! If we could prove that I reckon the police complaints commission would be very interested in that but I suppose it's virtually impossible to prove. However, surely it can be over turned if overwhelming evidence to the contrary, including CCTV footage, can be produced. Even if it can't, I'm sure it doesn't preclude justice from being served upon the steward. It certainly doesn't stop us pursuing a change in stewarding policy at CUFC. Does he have a copy of the document? the police can only hold anyone without charge for 48 hours after that its a bail hearing. I cant see that being ejected from a football ground warrents this. However nothing suprises me these days. I will drop you a mail tomorrow from work when I have had a word with out local copper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oafc_ok Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 I was sat almost immediately in front of Lee so can testify to the appaling attitude of the steward who threatened Latics & England with ejection and can also confirm that no warning was given directly to Lee prior to his ejection. I can also confirm that Lee went with the steward willingly, showing no sign of resistance. Unfortunately I didn't see what happened on the stairway. The next time I saw Lee he was being violently pushed against the advertising hoardings by the steward. I plan to write to Colchester United about the incident tomorrow, copying in Alan Hardy. If there is anything else I can do to assist please let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeslover Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Please can you all copy me at andymroberts@btinternet.com with any emails you raise regarding it, or copy any letters you print and so on. We all have our own take on it but it will help if we know what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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